Trainwreckstv political panel - Revision history

Picklesnathan: fixed a link to an unmade page to point to the existing wiki page for /r/Destiny

2025-12-06T02:05:41Z

fixed a link to an unmade page to point to the existing wiki page for /r/Destiny

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:05, 6 December 2025
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	== Debate reception ==		== Debate reception ==
	Throughout the debate, Hasan routinely attempted to tie his arguments into either a critique on capitalism or a praise for socialism. This argumentative tactic, contrasted against Destiny's attempts to engage in more relevant/substantive critiques on the topics discussed, inevitably caused the "left-wing" side of the debate to appear weaker in the face of the arguably more effective rhetoric provided by Fuentes and the "right-wing" side. Following the debate, several r/destiny subreddit users claimed the debate to be a "massive disaster", arguing Fuentes (an up and coming far-right content creator at the time), was essentially given a platform to freely espouse his views and garner more popularity.<ref>[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/b9mahl/i_think_we_can_all_agree_that_this_was_a_massive/ reddit.com] ''I think we can all agree this was a massive disaster.'' From [[r/Destiny]].</ref>		Throughout the debate, Hasan routinely attempted to tie his arguments into either a critique on capitalism or a praise for socialism. This argumentative tactic, contrasted against Destiny's attempts to engage in more relevant/substantive critiques on the topics discussed, inevitably caused the "left-wing" side of the debate to appear weaker in the face of the arguably more effective rhetoric provided by Fuentes and the "right-wing" side. Following the debate, several r/destiny subreddit users claimed the debate to be a "massive disaster", arguing Fuentes (an up and coming far-right content creator at the time), was essentially given a platform to freely espouse his views and garner more popularity.<ref>[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/b9mahl/i_think_we_can_all_agree_that_this_was_a_massive/ reddit.com] ''I think we can all agree this was a massive disaster.'' From [[R/destiny\|r/Destiny]].</ref>

	== References ==		== References ==
	[[Category:Debates]]		[[Category:Debates]]

Pazzazour: /* Debate reception */ whitespace

2025-08-17T22:40:50Z

Debate reception: whitespace

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:40, 17 August 2025
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	== Debate reception ==		== Debate reception ==
	Throughout the debate, Hasan routinely attempted to tie his arguments into either a critique on capitalism or a praise for socialism. This argumentative tactic, contrasted against Destiny's attempts to engage in more relevant/substantive critiques on the topics discussed, inevitably caused the "left-wing" side of the debate to appear weaker in the face of the arguably more effective rhetoric provided by Fuentes and the "right-wing" side. Following the debate, several r/destiny subreddit users claimed the debate to be a "massive disaster", arguing Fuentes(an up and coming far-right content creator at the time), was essentially given a platform to freely espouse his views and garner more popularity. <ref> [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/b9mahl/i_think_we_can_all_agree_that_this_was_a_massive/ reddit.com] ''I think we can all agree this was a massive disaster.'' From [[r/Destiny]]. </ref>		Throughout the debate, Hasan routinely attempted to tie his arguments into either a critique on capitalism or a praise for socialism. This argumentative tactic, contrasted against Destiny's attempts to engage in more relevant/substantive critiques on the topics discussed, inevitably caused the "left-wing" side of the debate to appear weaker in the face of the arguably more effective rhetoric provided by Fuentes and the "right-wing" side. Following the debate, several r/destiny subreddit users claimed the debate to be a "massive disaster", arguing Fuentes (an up and coming far-right content creator at the time), was essentially given a platform to freely espouse his views and garner more popularity.<ref>[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/b9mahl/i_think_we_can_all_agree_that_this_was_a_massive/ reddit.com] ''I think we can all agree this was a massive disaster.'' From [[r/Destiny]].</ref>


	== References ==		== References ==
	[[Category:Debates]]		[[Category:Debates]]

Spr1ggs at 14:29, 2 October 2024

2024-10-02T14:29:41Z

Show changes

Spr1ggs: Adding category

2024-09-06T15:28:45Z

Adding category

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:28, 6 September 2024
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	== References ==		== References ==
			[[Category:Debates]]

Devonnn: adding blockquotes

2024-08-18T16:37:41Z

adding blockquotes

Show changes

Spr1ggs: wording

2024-08-18T05:00:43Z

wording

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:00, 18 August 2024
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	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=8613 "The only example of systemic violence brought about by bringing communism into action, is nowhere near as bad as all of the death toll under capitalism. We talk about people dying in famines and what not under communist-dictatorship, seven million people every year die because they don't have access to fucking food... that is a consequence of the capitalist structure we exist under, and yet you never point the finger at that."]- Hasan giving an earnest defense of communism to Fuentes and Sargon.		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=8613 "The only example of systemic violence brought about by bringing communism into action, is nowhere near as bad as all of the death toll under capitalism. We talk about people dying in famines and what not under communist-dictatorship, seven million people every year die because they don't have access to fucking food... that is a consequence of the capitalist structure we exist under, and yet you never point the finger at that."]- Hasan giving an earnest defense of communism to Fuentes and Sargon.

	Following further heated deliberation between Fuentes and Hasan, Destiny steps in to steer the conversation back on topic. Destiny argues that a radicalization of white people around the world is occuring, resulting in them committing more terrorist attacks. He continues, asserting that statements like "both sides commit violence" and "the communist revolution was incredibly violent", as Sargon and Fuentes stated, are vacuous. He clarifies that such ~~statement~~ do not truly address the issues regarding right-wing extremism in the modern world, and that while such "online-radicalization" is certainly possible to occur in left-wing individuals, it has not been born out in reality. Following this, Destiny explains the radicalization path which occurs for individuals on the right, and describes how the typical right-wing rhetoric of "being replaced by immigrants", can easily lead people to commit violent acts, and has actually been born out in reality.		Following further heated deliberation between Fuentes and Hasan, Destiny steps in to steer the conversation back on topic. Destiny argues that a radicalization of white people around the world is occuring, resulting in them committing more terrorist attacks. He continues, asserting that statements like "both sides commit violence" and "the communist revolution was incredibly violent", as Sargon and Fuentes stated, are vacuous. He clarifies that such statements do not truly address the issues regarding right-wing extremism in the modern world, and that while such "online-radicalization" is certainly possible to occur in left-wing individuals, it has not been born out in reality. Following this, Destiny explains the radicalization path which occurs for individuals on the right, and describes how the typical right-wing rhetoric of "being replaced by immigrants", can easily lead people to commit violent acts, and has actually been born out in reality.

	Fuentes is then given the opportunity to respond, arguing that individuals on the left utilize acts of violence committed by right-wingers as a pretext to silence their political opponents. Fuentes expands his point, asserting that radicalization exists on all sides of the aisle. Fuentes goes on to provide examples of "left-wing violence" committed by Palestinians, and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shooting Congressional baseball shooting]. Following this, the discussion is once again mired by a debate on communism/socialism between Sargon and Hasan, wherein Hasan once again defends against the concept of communism being "inherently violent". Destiny steps in once more, arguing that some types of violence may be justifiable. He explains that the types of arguments a "left-wing" shooter would use to enact violence for economic reasons would inherently be different than a "right-wing shooter's" motivation of enacting violence on a racial group. As a result, Fuentes argues that every single group should be censored, as any rhetoric will intrinsically lead to violence against the state. Destiny once again disagrees, and asserts once more that violence enacted for economic reasons is completely different than that enacted for racial reasons. Fuentes then attempts to argue that the rhetoric enacted by left-wing content creators is inherently violent. While Destiny doesn't disagree, he posets once more that it is justifiable, and right-wing content creators have enacted the same rhetoric, and have actually seen violence born out:		Fuentes is then given the opportunity to respond, arguing that individuals on the left utilize acts of violence committed by right-wingers as a pretext to silence their political opponents. Fuentes expands his point, asserting that radicalization exists on all sides of the aisle. Fuentes goes on to provide examples of "left-wing violence" committed by Palestinians, and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shooting Congressional baseball shooting]. Following this, the discussion is once again mired by a debate on communism/socialism between Sargon and Hasan, wherein Hasan once again defends against the concept of communism being "inherently violent". Destiny steps in once more, arguing that some types of violence may be justifiable. He explains that the types of arguments a "left-wing" shooter would use to enact violence for economic reasons would inherently be different than a "right-wing shooter's" motivation of enacting violence on a racial group. As a result, Fuentes argues that every single group should be censored, as any rhetoric will intrinsically lead to violence against the state. Destiny once again disagrees, and asserts once more that violence enacted for economic reasons is completely different than that enacted for racial reasons. Fuentes then attempts to argue that the rhetoric enacted by left-wing content creators is inherently violent. While Destiny doesn't disagree, he posets once more that it is justifiable, and right-wing content creators have enacted the same rhetoric, and have actually seen violence born out:
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	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=9918 "If you're somebody like Lauren Southern, and you're making videos talking about how western society is being destroyed, that the white man is going extinct, that we're being outbred and forced to take on this multicultural, cuck-culture, by jews that are trying to outbreed and destroy white people, how can you not think that's going to lead to some people committing violence?"] -Destiny regarding right-wing rhetoric.		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=9918 "If you're somebody like Lauren Southern, and you're making videos talking about how western society is being destroyed, that the white man is going extinct, that we're being outbred and forced to take on this multicultural, cuck-culture, by jews that are trying to outbreed and destroy white people, how can you not think that's going to lead to some people committing violence?"] -Destiny regarding right-wing rhetoric.

	Fuentes counters, arguing that left-wing individuals may be "pussies", afraid to follow through to the logical conclusion. Following further deliberation, the conversation once more gets derailed as Hasan asserts the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq 2003 invasion of Iraq] by the United States should be labled as genocide This statement is met by much laughter from Sargon and Fuentes, both claiming Hasan does not know the definition of genocide. Following this, Hasan spearheads yet another debate regarding communism, which is cut short following a rehash of prior talking points from both parties. The topic concludes with Sargon and Fuentes asserting once more that the true cause for violence from right-leaning individuals is the "suppression" of their voice, while Destiny and Hasan maintain the violent-rhetoric from right-leaning individuals is the true cause for such instances of violence. Destiny offers a nuanced answer, caveating that such rhetoric may be platformed if bad faith actors such as Fuentes are excluded. Hasan on the other hand argues that racism is a "social condition", and proceeds to root his answer in his issues with Capitalism and his grievances with the "profit-motive" of corporations. Sargon and Fuentes immediately wave of Hasan's arguments as "marxist-rhetoric", and the conversation is once again derailed into a discussion on communism.		Fuentes counters, arguing that left-wing individuals may simply just be "pussies" afraid to follow through to the logical conclusion. Following further deliberation, the conversation once more gets derailed as Hasan asserts the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq 2003 invasion of Iraq] by the United States should be labled as genocide. This statement is met by much laughter from Sargon and Fuentes, both claiming Hasan does not know the definition of genocide. Following this, Hasan spearheads yet another debate regarding communism, which is cut short following a rehash of prior talking points from both parties. The topic concludes with Sargon and Fuentes asserting once more that the true cause for violence from right-leaning individuals is the "suppression" of their voice, while Destiny and Hasan maintain the violent-rhetoric from right-leaning individuals is the true cause for such instances of violence. Destiny offers a nuanced answer, caveating that such rhetoric may be platformed if bad faith actors such as Fuentes are excluded. Hasan on the other hand argues that racism is a "social condition", and proceeds to root his answer in his issues with Capitalism and his grievances with the "profit-motive" of corporations. Sargon and Fuentes immediately wave of Hasan's arguments as "marxist-rhetoric", and the conversation is once again derailed into a discussion on communism.

	Fuentes and Destiny proceed to have a very heated conversation with one another regarding Nobel prize winning researcher [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson James Watson], "false appeals to authority" and Fuentes's supposed "long-winded nazi-rhetoric". Destiny argues that Fuentes is utilizing Watson's cancellation as leverage to argue that his "nazi-claims" regarding "genetic-intelligence" are valid. Throughout the discussion, Destiny maintains that Fuentes is utilizing "false-appeals to authority" in order to validate certain race-realism claims:		Fuentes and Destiny proceed to have a very heated conversation with one another regarding Nobel prize winning researcher [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson James Watson], "false appeals to authority" and Fuentes's supposed "long-winded nazi-rhetoric". Destiny argues that Fuentes is utilizing Watson's cancellation as leverage to argue that his "nazi-claims" regarding "genetic-intelligence" are valid. Throughout the discussion, Destiny maintains that Fuentes is utilizing "false-appeals to authority" in order to validate certain race-realism claims:

Spr1ggs: wording

2024-08-18T04:54:29Z

wording

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:54, 18 August 2024
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	== Second Topic: Donald Trump==		== Second Topic: Donald Trump==
	[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]		[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]
	Train introduces the second topic: The lack of collusion found between Russia and Trump as evidenced by the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report Mueller report], and negative media bias(aka "fake news") as it pertains to Trump. Destiny, given the opportunity to respond first, dismisses the notion that the media erroneously reported on such collusion. Destiny proceeds to argue that Mueller may have had evidence of collusion, but just not enough to "nail anyone to the wall". Hasan chimes in, asserting that while Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice, the investigation should have primarily focused on ~~the~~ Russian social media influence campaigns instead of the collusion aspect. Sargon expresses his agreement with this position, and argues that Trump was too incompetent to have attempted any collusion with Russia. Hasan agrees, and Destiny interjects stating they are both wrong and that Trump's campaign consultant([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort Paul Manafort]) has been found conspiring with foreign agents in the past, arguing this as evidence of the degree of competence involved in a potential collusion. Fuentes is given the opportunity to respond, ~~during which time Fuentes~~ points out that despite the large amount of indictments levied against several individuals as a result of the investigation, not a single one involved collusion. Fuentes proceeds to argue that the media bias against Trump may have negatively influenced the perception of the investigation. Destiny takes issue with this point and argues that that most of mainstream media is dominated by right-wing organizations, pointing to Fox News, several right-leaning radio hosts, and right-wing influencers.		Train introduces the second topic: The lack of collusion found between Russia and Trump as evidenced by the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report Mueller report], and negative media bias(aka "fake news") as it pertains to Trump. Destiny, given the opportunity to respond first, dismisses the notion that the media erroneously reported on such collusion. Destiny proceeds to argue that Mueller may have had evidence of collusion, but just not enough to "nail anyone to the wall". Hasan chimes in, asserting that while Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice, the investigation should have primarily focused on Russian social media influence campaigns instead of the collusion aspect. Sargon expresses his agreement with this position, and argues that Trump was too incompetent to have attempted any collusion with Russia. Hasan agrees, and Destiny interjects stating they are both wrong and that Trump's campaign consultant([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort Paul Manafort]) has been found conspiring with foreign agents in the past, arguing this as evidence of the degree of competence involved in a potential collusion. Fuentes is given the opportunity to respond, and points out that despite the large amount of indictments levied against several individuals as a result of the investigation, not a single one involved collusion. Fuentes proceeds to argue that the media bias against Trump may have negatively influenced the perception of the investigation. Destiny takes issue with this point and argues that that most of mainstream media is dominated by right-wing organizations, pointing to Fox News, several right-leaning radio hosts, and right-wing influencers.

	In an attempt to provide evidence contrary to the belief that the most popular media positions are held by right-wing affiliated organisations, Sargon provides a list of the most popular political YouTube channels. Sargaon goes on to claim that several left-wing individuals are in the upper echelons of this list. Upon reviewing the list, Destiny and Hasan point out that several of the higher ranking positions are held by right-wing individuals/organizations, and proceed to debate the veracity of a list comparing individuals such as Jimmy Kimmel and [[No Bullshit]]. A debate on the causes of media bias eventually arises, Destiny argues that media companies follow "in-step" with cultural norms and will only provide content that is popular. Destiny concedes that individuals like Fuentes may view this through a seperate framework where "the Jews" control all media, but for "those who live in reality", capitalism is a more reasonable answer. During their rebuttal, Sargon and Fuentes point to several modern day media pieces(sitcoms, movies, video games) containing female/non-white protagonists, as examples of a "left-wing" bias. This conversation reaches a boiling point when Destiny directly asks Fuentes if he believes it to be immoral to show interracial relationships in modern media. After some prodding, Fuentes eventually confesses that he does not believe interracial relationships should be promoted. When Destiny and Hasan burst out in laughter at this confession, Fuentes states:		In an attempt to provide evidence contrary to the belief that the most popular media positions are held by right-wing affiliated organisations, Sargon provides a list of the most popular political YouTube channels. Sargaon goes on to claim that several left-wing individuals are in the upper echelons of this list. Upon reviewing the list, Destiny and Hasan point out that several of the higher ranking positions are held by right-wing individuals/organizations, and proceed to debate the veracity of a list comparing individuals such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Kimmel Jimmy Kimmel] and [[No Bullshit]]. A debate on the causes of media bias eventually arises, Destiny argues that media companies follow "in-step" with cultural norms and will only provide content that is popular. Destiny concedes that individuals like Fuentes may view this through a seperate framework where "the Jews" control all media, but for "those who live in reality", capitalism is a more reasonable answer. During their rebuttal, Sargon and Fuentes point to several modern day media pieces(sitcoms, movies, video games) containing female/non-white protagonists, as examples of a "left-wing" bias. This conversation reaches a boiling point when Destiny directly asks Fuentes if he believes it to be immoral to show interracial relationships in modern media. After some prodding, Fuentes eventually confesses that he does not believe interracial relationships should be promoted. When Destiny and Hasan burst out in laughter at this confession, Fuentes states:
	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=6742 "I like that laughter... that will be really funny when you guys are bred out of existence"] - Nick Fuentes shortly after expressing his disagreement with the promotion of interracial relationships		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=6742 "I like that laughter... that will be really funny when you guys are bred out of existence"] - Nick Fuentes shortly after expressing his disagreement with the promotion of interracial relationships
	Following this statement, a series of insults and personal attacks are flung from both sides of the panel.		Following this statement, a series of insults and personal attacks are flung from both sides of the panel.

Spr1ggs: wording

2024-06-10T20:23:38Z

wording

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:23, 10 June 2024
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	Sargon reiterates much of Fuentes's talking points, arguing that the claim the shooter was influenced by YouTubers is a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring Red herring]. Following Sargon, Destiny gives his initial rebuttal, explaining that the shooter was an extreme alt-right figure. Destiny elaborates that while the shooter's views of wanting to kick out all minorities/immigrants from his country were suppressed, given the hateful nature of such views, it was for suppressed for good reason. Destiny continues, arguing that while an exact link to a particular YouTuber which motivated the shooter may be hard to find, hateful rhetoric begets hateful actions, and the gateway for such rhetoric could lie in YouTube. Hasan takes a different approach to his initial rebuttal, deriding Fuentes for "sneaking-in" rhetoric praising the shooter and implying they had no choice but to "shoot-up" the mosque.		Sargon reiterates much of Fuentes's talking points, arguing that the claim the shooter was influenced by YouTubers is a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring Red herring]. Following Sargon, Destiny gives his initial rebuttal, explaining that the shooter was an extreme alt-right figure. Destiny elaborates that while the shooter's views of wanting to kick out all minorities/immigrants from his country were suppressed, given the hateful nature of such views, it was for suppressed for good reason. Destiny continues, arguing that while an exact link to a particular YouTuber which motivated the shooter may be hard to find, hateful rhetoric begets hateful actions, and the gateway for such rhetoric could lie in YouTube. Hasan takes a different approach to his initial rebuttal, deriding Fuentes for "sneaking-in" rhetoric praising the shooter and implying they had no choice but to "shoot-up" the mosque.

	Sargon offers his rebuttal, deriding the cultural comminance of left-wing thought, and arguing it's extremes are just as violent as the other end of the political spectrum. Hasan takes issue, arguing that "seizing the means of production", "redistributing wealth", and "universal healthcare", are not inherently violent and have worked in other countries unlike the conservative principles Sargon and Fuentes are advocating for. A debate is then held for some time regarding which of the radical ends of the political spectrum are inherently more violent. Destiny and Hasan point to real world examples of alt-right/conservative mass-shootings/acts of violence, while Sargon and Fuentes point to attacks by immigrants in western countries. A debate ~~then arises over which side of the political spectrum is inherently more violent~~. Sargon argues that communism is inherently more violent than most other economic schools of thought, which Hasan takes issue with. Hasan simply states communism is not more violent, while Destiny points out that most other economic schools of thought would fail to exist without some form of violence, providing capitalism as an example. Hasan and Destiny are immediately accused of performing a "whataboutism" and are laughed at by Fuentes and Sargon. Hasan is eventually pushed into a full-on defense of communism, while Destiny remains silent:		Sargon offers his rebuttal, deriding the cultural comminance of left-wing thought, and arguing it's extremes are just as violent as the other end of the political spectrum. Hasan takes issue, arguing that "seizing the means of production", "redistributing wealth", and "universal healthcare", are not inherently violent and have worked in other countries unlike the conservative principles Sargon and Fuentes are advocating for. A debate is then held for some time regarding which of the radical ends of the political spectrum are inherently more violent. Destiny and Hasan point to real world examples of alt-right/conservative mass-shootings/acts of violence, while Sargon and Fuentes point to attacks by immigrants in western countries.The debate continues, this time regarding Nazism vs Communism. Sargon argues that communism is inherently more violent than most other economic schools of thought, which Hasan takes issue with. Hasan simply states communism is not more violent, while Destiny points out that most other economic schools of thought would fail to exist without some form of violence, providing capitalism as an example. Hasan and Destiny are immediately accused of performing a "whataboutism" and are laughed at by Fuentes and Sargon. Hasan is eventually pushed into a full-on defense of communism, while Destiny remains silent:

	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=8613 "The only example of systemic violence brought about by bringing communism into action, is nowhere near as bad as all of the death toll under capitalism. We talk about people dying in famines and what not under communist-dictatorship, seven million people every year die because they don't have access to fucking food... that is a consequence of the capitalist structure we exist under, and yet you never point the finger at that."]- Hasan giving an earnest defense of communism to Fuentes and Sargon.		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=8613 "The only example of systemic violence brought about by bringing communism into action, is nowhere near as bad as all of the death toll under capitalism. We talk about people dying in famines and what not under communist-dictatorship, seven million people every year die because they don't have access to fucking food... that is a consequence of the capitalist structure we exist under, and yet you never point the finger at that."]- Hasan giving an earnest defense of communism to Fuentes and Sargon.
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	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=9918 "If you're somebody like Lauren Southern, and you're making videos talking about how western society is being destroyed, that the white man is going extinct, that we're being outbred and forced to take on this multicultural, cuck-culture, by jews that are trying to outbreed and destroy white people, how can you not think that's going to lead to some people committing violence?"] -Destiny regarding right-wing rhetoric.		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=9918 "If you're somebody like Lauren Southern, and you're making videos talking about how western society is being destroyed, that the white man is going extinct, that we're being outbred and forced to take on this multicultural, cuck-culture, by jews that are trying to outbreed and destroy white people, how can you not think that's going to lead to some people committing violence?"] -Destiny regarding right-wing rhetoric.

	Fuentes counters, arguing that left-wing individuals may be "pussies", afraid to follow through to the logical conclusion. Following further deliberation, the conversation once more gets derailed as Hasan asserts the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq 2003 invasion of Iraq] by the United States should be labled as genocide This statement is ~~much~~ by much laughter from Sargon and Fuentes, both claiming Hasan does not know ~~what~~ the definition of genocide. Following this, Hasan spearheads yet another debate regarding communism, which is cut short following a rehash of prior talking points from both parties. The topic concludes with Sargon and Fuentes asserting once more that the true cause for violence from right-leaning individuals is the "suppression" of their voice, while Destiny and Hasan maintain the violent-rhetoric from right-leaning individuals is the true cause for such instances of violence. Destiny offers a nuanced answer, caveating that such rhetoric may be platformed if bad faith actors such as Fuentes are excluded. Hasan on the other hand argues that racism is a "social condition", and proceeds to root his answer in his issues with Capitalism and his grievances with the "profit-motive" of corporations. Sargon and Fuentes immediately wave of Hasan's arguments as "marxist-rhetoric", and the conversation is once again derailed into a discussion on communism.		Fuentes counters, arguing that left-wing individuals may be "pussies", afraid to follow through to the logical conclusion. Following further deliberation, the conversation once more gets derailed as Hasan asserts the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq 2003 invasion of Iraq] by the United States should be labled as genocide This statement is met by much laughter from Sargon and Fuentes, both claiming Hasan does not know the definition of genocide. Following this, Hasan spearheads yet another debate regarding communism, which is cut short following a rehash of prior talking points from both parties. The topic concludes with Sargon and Fuentes asserting once more that the true cause for violence from right-leaning individuals is the "suppression" of their voice, while Destiny and Hasan maintain the violent-rhetoric from right-leaning individuals is the true cause for such instances of violence. Destiny offers a nuanced answer, caveating that such rhetoric may be platformed if bad faith actors such as Fuentes are excluded. Hasan on the other hand argues that racism is a "social condition", and proceeds to root his answer in his issues with Capitalism and his grievances with the "profit-motive" of corporations. Sargon and Fuentes immediately wave of Hasan's arguments as "marxist-rhetoric", and the conversation is once again derailed into a discussion on communism.

	Fuentes and Destiny proceed to have a very heated conversation with one another regarding Nobel prize winning researcher [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson James Watson], "false appeals to authority" and Fuentes's supposed "long-winded nazi-rhetoric". Destiny argues that Fuentes ~~utilizes~~ Watson's ~~supposedly~~ cancellation as leverage to argue that his "nazi-claims" regarding "genetic-intelligence" are valid. Throughout the discussion, Destiny maintains that Fuentes is utilizing "false-appeals to authority" in order to validate certain race-realism claims:		Fuentes and Destiny proceed to have a very heated conversation with one another regarding Nobel prize winning researcher [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson James Watson], "false appeals to authority" and Fuentes's supposed "long-winded nazi-rhetoric". Destiny argues that Fuentes is utilizing Watson's cancellation as leverage to argue that his "nazi-claims" regarding "genetic-intelligence" are valid. Throughout the discussion, Destiny maintains that Fuentes is utilizing "false-appeals to authority" in order to validate certain race-realism claims:
	[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=12103 "That's awesome so maybe I can educate you: So intelligence research in and of itself is a massive fucking field that spans several disciplines between Psychology, biology... and the people that debate this are also multidisciplinary people that have spent their fucking lives researching this. The fact that you have discovered the double-helix, or the fact that you have made certain contributions to certain types of DNA research, doesn't suddenly give you the authority to speak on things relating to intelligence"]- Destiny in response to Fuentes discussing James Watson's cancellation		[https://youtu.be/8XbT4UojaRw?t=12103 "That's awesome so maybe I can educate you: So intelligence research in and of itself is a massive fucking field that spans several disciplines between Psychology, biology... and the people that debate this are also multidisciplinary people that have spent their fucking lives researching this. The fact that you have discovered the double-helix, or the fact that you have made certain contributions to certain types of DNA research, doesn't suddenly give you the authority to speak on things relating to intelligence"]- Destiny in response to Fuentes discussing James Watson's cancellation

	~~The debate becomes increasingly more heated as Destiny becomes increasingly more irate at Sargon and Fuentes for seemingly "solving" the debate surrounding race-realism and genetics.~~ In the interest of moving on to the next topic, Asmongold requests both sides offer their closing statements. Sargon and Fuentes reiterate that they do not wish for anyone's life to be "destroyed" for "dissenting against the system" and simply stating the alleged truth regarding racial differences. Destiny takes issue with this, arguing that Sargon and Fuentes are severely understating the severity and baselessness of Watson's statements, especially considering his stature within the scientific community in a related field. Destiny adds that Watson has seemingly willingly ostracized himself from the scientific community, and argues that this would make it even harder for him to be "reintroduced back into the fold". Hasan's offers a much more blunt conclusion, arguing he feels no sympathy for the "race-realist who sold his nobel peace prize and made a fuck load of money at the age of 90." As Hasan continues his conclusion, he harkens back to the segment of the debate where Sargon and Fuentes derided communism, and places this as evidence to Fuentes and Sargon's bad-faith nature. The conversation then concludes, and the panelists give their farewells.		In the interest of moving on to the next topic, Asmongold requests both sides offer their closing statements. Sargon and Fuentes reiterate that they do not wish for anyone's life to be "destroyed" for "dissenting against the system" and simply stating the alleged truth regarding racial differences. Destiny takes issue with this, arguing that Sargon and Fuentes are severely understating the severity and baselessness of Watson's statements, especially considering his stature within the scientific community in a related field. Destiny adds that Watson has seemingly willingly ostracized himself from the scientific community, and argues that this would make it even harder for him to be "reintroduced back into the fold". Hasan's offers a much more blunt conclusion, arguing he feels no sympathy for the "race-realist who sold his nobel peace prize and made a fuck load of money at the age of 90." As Hasan continues his conclusion, he harkens back to the segment of the debate where Sargon and Fuentes derided communism, and places this as evidence to Fuentes and Sargon's bad-faith nature. The conversation then concludes, and the panelists give their farewells.

	== Debate reception ==		== Debate reception ==

Spr1ggs: /* First topic: Transgender Military ban */

2024-06-10T19:45:37Z

First topic: Transgender Military ban

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:45, 10 June 2024
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	Fuentes proceeds to argue that females should be barred from serving in all roles of the military and government positions as a whole, due to the potentiality for them to disrupt the "natural" social-dynamics present in these typically male-dominated groups. Destiny counters, arguing that enabling a society to allow individuals to make decisions relative to what they desire to do, is more important than trying to enforce some "naturalistic" setting as Fuentes desires. Destiny concludes that we should allow individuals to make decisions that would make them happy. Fuentes takes issue with this statement, and asserts that individuals today are not happier than they were in the past. Concluding the topic, Destiny argues that a "liberal society" should allow individuals to fail instead of forcing them into "optimal" decisions as Fuentes desires. Sargon steps in, and proceeds to argue that western birth rates declining should be an indication that society is not functioning properly, and that measures must be taken to ensure it rises again. Destiny takes issue with this argument and questions Sargon's desire to enforce cultural norms(i.e. having children) on a society. Hasan is given the opportunity to give his position before the topic concludes, and suggests the discussion should be geared more towards factors contributing to birth rates declining such as technological achievements and socioeconomic status.		Fuentes proceeds to argue that females should be barred from serving in all roles of the military and government positions as a whole, due to the potentiality for them to disrupt the "natural" social-dynamics present in these typically male-dominated groups. Destiny counters, arguing that enabling a society to allow individuals to make decisions relative to what they desire to do, is more important than trying to enforce some "naturalistic" setting as Fuentes desires. Destiny concludes that we should allow individuals to make decisions that would make them happy. Fuentes takes issue with this statement, and asserts that individuals today are not happier than they were in the past. Concluding the topic, Destiny argues that a "liberal society" should allow individuals to fail instead of forcing them into "optimal" decisions as Fuentes desires. Sargon steps in, and proceeds to argue that western birth rates declining should be an indication that society is not functioning properly, and that measures must be taken to ensure it rises again. Destiny takes issue with this argument and questions Sargon's desire to enforce cultural norms(i.e. having children) on a society. Hasan is given the opportunity to give his position before the topic concludes, and suggests the discussion should be geared more towards factors contributing to birth rates declining such as technological achievements and socioeconomic status.

	== Second Topic: Donald Trump==		== Second Topic: Donald Trump==
	[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]		[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]

Spr1ggs: /* Second Topic: Donald Trump */

2024-06-10T19:39:40Z

Second Topic: Donald Trump

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:39, 10 June 2024
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	== Second Topic: Donald Trump==		== Second Topic: Donald Trump==
	[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]		[[File:Report_On_The_Investigation_Into_Russian_Interference_In_The_2016_Presidential_Election.pdf.jpg \|300px\|thumb\|right \|The redacted version of the [https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/dl Mueller Report]]]
	Train introduces the second topic: The lack of collusion found between Russia and Trump as evidenced by the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report Mueller report], and negative media bias(aka "fake news") as it pertains to Trump. Destiny, given the opportunity to respond first, dismisses the notion that the media erroneously reported on such collusion. Destiny proceeds to argue that Mueller may have had evidence of collusion, but just not enough to "nail anyone to the wall". Hasan chimes in, asserting that while Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice, the investigation should have primarily focused on the Russian social media influence campaigns instead of the collusion aspect. Sargon expresses his agreement with this position, and argues that Trump was too incompetent to have attempted any collusion with Russia. Hasan agrees, and Destiny interjects stating they are both wrong and that Trump's campaign consultant([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort Paul Manafort]) has been found conspiring with foreign agents in the past. Fuentes is given the opportunity to respond, during which time Fuentes points out that despite the large amount of indictments levied against several individuals as a result of the investigation, not a single one involved collusion. Fuentes proceeds to argue that the media bias against Trump may have negatively influenced the perception of the investigation. Destiny takes issue with this point and argues that that most of mainstream media is dominated by right-wing organizations, pointing to Fox News, several right-leaning radio hosts, and right-wing influencers.		Train introduces the second topic: The lack of collusion found between Russia and Trump as evidenced by the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report Mueller report], and negative media bias(aka "fake news") as it pertains to Trump. Destiny, given the opportunity to respond first, dismisses the notion that the media erroneously reported on such collusion. Destiny proceeds to argue that Mueller may have had evidence of collusion, but just not enough to "nail anyone to the wall". Hasan chimes in, asserting that while Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice, the investigation should have primarily focused on the Russian social media influence campaigns instead of the collusion aspect. Sargon expresses his agreement with this position, and argues that Trump was too incompetent to have attempted any collusion with Russia. Hasan agrees, and Destiny interjects stating they are both wrong and that Trump's campaign consultant([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort Paul Manafort]) has been found conspiring with foreign agents in the past, arguing this as evidence of the degree of competence involved in a potential collusion. Fuentes is given the opportunity to respond, during which time Fuentes points out that despite the large amount of indictments levied against several individuals as a result of the investigation, not a single one involved collusion. Fuentes proceeds to argue that the media bias against Trump may have negatively influenced the perception of the investigation. Destiny takes issue with this point and argues that that most of mainstream media is dominated by right-wing organizations, pointing to Fox News, several right-leaning radio hosts, and right-wing influencers.

	In an attempt to provide evidence contrary to the belief that the most popular media positions are held by right-wing affiliated organisations, Sargon provides a list of the most popular political YouTube channels. Sargaon goes on to claim that several left-wing individuals are in the upper echelons of this list. Upon reviewing the list, Destiny and Hasan point out that several of the higher ranking positions are held by right-wing individuals/organizations, and proceed to debate the veracity of a list comparing individuals such as Jimmy Kimmel and [[No Bullshit]]. A debate on the causes of media bias eventually arises, Destiny argues that media companies follow "in-step" with cultural norms and will only provide content that is popular. Destiny concedes that individuals like Fuentes may view this through a seperate framework where "the Jews" control all media, but for "those who live in reality", capitalism is a more reasonable answer. During their rebuttal, Sargon and Fuentes point to several modern day media pieces(sitcoms, movies, video games) containing female/non-white protagonists, as examples of a "left-wing" bias. This conversation reaches a boiling point when Destiny directly asks Fuentes if he believes it to be immoral to show interracial relationships in modern media. After some prodding, Fuentes eventually confesses that he does not believe interracial relationships should be promoted. When Destiny and Hasan burst out in laughter at this confession, Fuentes states:		In an attempt to provide evidence contrary to the belief that the most popular media positions are held by right-wing affiliated organisations, Sargon provides a list of the most popular political YouTube channels. Sargaon goes on to claim that several left-wing individuals are in the upper echelons of this list. Upon reviewing the list, Destiny and Hasan point out that several of the higher ranking positions are held by right-wing individuals/organizations, and proceed to debate the veracity of a list comparing individuals such as Jimmy Kimmel and [[No Bullshit]]. A debate on the causes of media bias eventually arises, Destiny argues that media companies follow "in-step" with cultural norms and will only provide content that is popular. Destiny concedes that individuals like Fuentes may view this through a seperate framework where "the Jews" control all media, but for "those who live in reality", capitalism is a more reasonable answer. During their rebuttal, Sargon and Fuentes point to several modern day media pieces(sitcoms, movies, video games) containing female/non-white protagonists, as examples of a "left-wing" bias. This conversation reaches a boiling point when Destiny directly asks Fuentes if he believes it to be immoral to show interracial relationships in modern media. After some prodding, Fuentes eventually confesses that he does not believe interracial relationships should be promoted. When Destiny and Hasan burst out in laughter at this confession, Fuentes states: