Lav

Lea 'Lav'

Lea AKA LavLune is a singer, TikTok content creator, feminist and former OnlyFans content creator who spent some time as one of the most antagonistic orbiters to ever grace Destiny's stream.

On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas WIP

Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav

On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionality dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position.

While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation.

Debate Highlights(Destiny reacting to a vod of MrGirl and Lav)

0:30 Lav calls into MrGirl's show. 1:55 Lav tells MrGirl "The way you feel about Steven Crowder is how I feel about you." And that she feels dread looking at him. 9:06 MrGirl calmly tells Lav to shutup. 9:36 Lav accuses MrGirl of getting mad at Destiny for not taking a "deliberate stance" about him. MrGirl says he does not care about the reasons but does care about the lack of a stance, to which Lav accuses MrGirl of lying. 15:11 Lav describes how she "molds" her husband to take care of her, and makes the claim that MrGirl does the same with his girlfriend. Lav goes on to describe MrGirl as unintentionally "skeevy" in the way he goes about this molding. 20:35, when asked what she (Lav) would do if her partner was crying or facing emotional turmoil in another room, Lav replied that she would try to ignore her partner and later express her frustration with them once they've calmed down. 25:30, Lav accuses MrGirl of "over-indexing" boundaries because he is bad at establishing them. MrGirl counters that Lav does train people, and accuses her of wanting him to use emotional/physical withdrawal to "train" his girlfriend(which he describes as abusive). Lav then accuses MrGirl of using her as a punching bag to vent his frustrations about Destiny. 29:50 Lav joins the call. Destiny offers her some advice, telling her she must be "very chill" in order to challenge someone, particularly MrGirl, on their behavior. 33:31 Lav states she "would never date a man who cries". 37:50 Destiny expresses his frustration about not being able to follow along with what is going on in the conversation. 49:50 Destiny offers some critiques of MrGirl. He notices that MrGirl never asks clarifying questions to discern what his debate opponent is thinking. 54:50 MrGirl's accuses Lav of being abusive after she brings up his traumatic childhood. Lav responds that she only brought up MrGirl's mother because she believes he is subconsciously attaching opinions to Lav she doesn't truly believe. 58:09 Lav tells MrGirl he is coming off as very uncharitable and aggressive. MrGirl responds that she is doing the same. 1:06:38 Destiny agrees with a statement Lav made in the call, that MrGirl tends to go "really hard" when he sees someone show weakness in a conversation.

After watching the vod, Destiny decided to invite Lav onto his stream to offer her some debate advice. Soon after, MrGirl joined the call, and Destiny moderated a debate between the two. With Destiny's assistance, the two were able to clearly lay out their positions. Despite this, the debate still became quite heated, and both debaters maintained the same positions they entered the call with.

Debate Highlights(Destiny moderating a debate between MrGirl and Lav)

1:10:08 Lav joins the call, and Destiny asks her what the goal of the conversation she had with MrGirl was. 1:16:11 Lav points out that she noticed MrGirl's chat calling her a "demon" and questioned if his audience was composed of incels. 1:19:30 Lav claims that MrGirl positions himself to be some "all knowing god". 1:25:21 Lav tells Destiny what she "got cancelled" for, she goes on to describe how she took issue with a video saying "it's weird when a women feels connected to their vagina". 1:57:31 Shortly after MrGirl joins the call, the three agree to have a debate with Destiny moderating. 2:00:29 Lav asserts her position in the conversation was: When an individual feels themselves becoming emotionality dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. 2:01:56 MrGirl provides a counterargument to Lav's position: When an individual in a relationship creates emotional/physical distance as a result of their partner's actions, the partner may feel abandoned. 2:18:05 Destiny asks MrGirl if he thinks he could've done anything better in the conversation. MrGirl does not respond, and instead accuses Destiny of running defense for lav. 2:24:50 Lav states that the line between "being abusive" and "not being abusive" is intent. 2:30:57 Lav attempts to apologize for bringing up MrGirl's mother in their previous convo, Mrgirl is quick to cut Lav off and accuses her of changing the subject and being an abuser. 2:33:42 Lav tries to explain to MrGirl that they come from very similar background and are the "same person" in many ways, while Destiny begins to play the piano. For the next hour and a half MrGirl and Lav engage in a cycle of attempting to debate the aforementioned partner crying in another room scenario, and occasionally get sidetracked by Lav talking about her personal life or getting frustrated with MrGirl. This all occurs while Destiny fruitlessly tries to get the two to engage meaningfully, cut between him playing the piano. Nothing is accomplished in the conversation, and nobody moves from their prior positions.

Destiny reacts to a panel featuring Lav

On August 6, 2022, Chudlogic hosted a panel to discuss sex work and OnlyFans. Among the guests on this panel included Merrick Deville, Wickedsupreme, and Lav. Destiny had chosen to watch this panel because he was interested in Lav's perspective as an individual who quit creating OnlyFans content as a result of her interactions with MrGirl.

Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate

On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, suggesting he misunderstood the financial struggles of sex workers when comparing them to other professions like doctors. The discussion explored the societal implications of sex work, particularly in platforms like OnlyFans, touching on subjects such as the dehumanization of women, unrealistic beauty standards, and societal consumption of explicit content. They debated the role of personal responsibility, with Lav emphasizing the potential negative impacts of sex work on society, while Destiny argued that the issue lies more with societal engagement and overindulgence in technology than with sex work itself.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from the panel include: 1:40 Lav makes the claim that subscribing to an OnlyFans content creator's page is the equivalent to monetizing women's oppression. She goes on to say that women utilizing OnlyFans is a net negative for society as a whole. Destiny counters that women capitalizing on men's desires in such a way that allows them to earn a living is not necessarily a negative thing. 4:13 Lav states that sexual oppression is a big theme for women, a women's value is tied to their age( "once i'm thirty i'm fucking dead to this world"), and men don't have these issues. Destiny, noticing that Lav just shotgunned out three topics, decides to dissect each point individually. Destiny asks if it's possible for a women not to be sexually oppressed while still capitalizing on their sexuality, and highlights a parallel to men feeling useless at younger ages(men being valued for experience/money which comes with age). 6:54 Lav asserts that a man can never fully grasp the experiences of a women much like how a white man "can never fully grasp the experience of a black man". Destiny responds that the same can be said for women trying to grasp the experiences of a man. Lav then takes the conflicting position of being a feminist and gender abolitionist. 8:53 Destiny asks Lav: "If a women chooses to take pictures of herself, sell them online, and there are men who choose to purchase those images because they enjoy it, where is the oppression in that interaction?" To which Lav responds "when you add money to something, especially a body, you dehumanize it..." Destiny responds that this "dehumanization" is unavoidable and an unfortunate reality due to locality issues(i.e. it's easy to see someone as less human if they are online). 12:52 Lav makes the claim that "50-60% of men see themselves escalating porn, and the algorithm favors violent porn, most of sex is degradation or violence against women..." 16:17 Lav makes the argument that the "problem is not porn, it's the unregulation of porn... we should go back to a playboyesque thing with still-images... porn is out of control". Destiny responds that this issue is not directly a cause of porn, and more related to a societal issue with regards to individuals seeking the quickest "dopamine hits"(citing people obsessively browsing reddit or TikTok) through unfettered access to technology.

Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel

From left to right: REDACTED, Destiny, Lav, Jenavive, MrGirl, ChudLogic, and TafTaj on a panel to discuss sex work.

On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, REDACTED, Sneako, and MrGirl, to discuss several topics including OnlyFans, sex work, AI porn, and Dogwarts. Much like her prior appearances, Lav takes the position that sex work is a net-negative to society and should be heavily regulated. As there are multiple sex-workers(TafTaj and Jenavive) on the call, much contention arises. This conversation quickly becomes heated as multiple "shit-stirrers" are present in the call.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from this panel include: 31:30, MrGirl chooses to bring up Lav, stating that she advertises her OnlyFans by saying on streams that it harms her. Destiny is quick to point out that she deleted all but one post on her OnlyFans. 35:51, MrGirl says he banned Lav from his discord for sexualizing minors(she posted pictures of herself as a child and asked for "tributes"). 46:02, REDACTED and Lav join the call. Lav takes issue with MrGirl claiming she sexualized minors, and banning her from his discord. 1:28:19, Lav states that the sharing of nude images between partners is problematic(shortly after stating she is not sex-negative). 1:39:24 Destiny provides the example of Portugal, a country that decriminalized all porn, and saw the rates of sexual assaults fall. He goes on to say that no such study exists linking the increase in the consumption of porn to an increase in sexual assault, to which Lav responds: "look for it, it's there, I promise..." Destiny rebukes that he has "looked for it" and found the opposite to be true in every study(i.e. consumption of porn in fact reduces chances for sexual assault). 1:41:03, Lav states she is only acting emotionally because MrGirl is in the call, and has not taken any extreme positions. Destiny is quick to point out her earlier argument that couples should not take nudes of one other. Lav then denies ever taking this position, and accuses everyone in the call of lying. 1:53:32. Lav asserts that a "rape fantasy is fucking ridiculous", and that indviduals should refrain from engaging in such behavior as they are making a mockery out of victims. When questioned on this belief by multiple members of the panel, Lav asks "why would someone even have a kink like that?" 1:59:44, Lav says the patriarchy has made an example out of Jenavive(after Jenavive states she "enjoys being looked at" sexually). Others on the panel point out that Lav has repeatedly handwaved Jenavive's arguments. 2:02:25, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 2:09:16, Lav provides incite into why she thinks OnlyFans subscribers do not care about the models they subscribe to. She cites a personal story involving her stay at a hospital and her subscribers being irritated by a lack of content.

Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream

From left to right: Brittany, ChudLogic, REDACTED, Destiny, Lav, MrGirl, Erudite, and Stardust on a panel debating Brittany's levels system.

On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another(primarily between Brittany and Lav). The "panel" initially started as a one on one discussion between Destiny and Lav, wherein she had many negative things to say about Brittany Simon. The conversation quickly devolved into a shouting match as more orbiters elected to join the discord call, and known shit-stirrer REDACTED contributed to the chaos. During the conversation, Lav and MrGirl try to convince a very high Brittany that her method of operating her Patreon and the “levels" system she utilizes are harmful. However, the disparate ways in which MrGirl and Lav present their messages leads to conflict between the two. By the end of the conversation Lav agrees with Brittany that she is smart enough to know what she's doing, and is truthfully engaging in harm reduction(she likely states this to spite MrGirl).

Debate Highlights

‌Highlights from the panel include: 0:56 Lav calls Brittany Simon a very irritating person and a blatant narcissist. 7:30 Lav clarifies that when she says "sex work is bad" she really means "sex work is bad for me", and emphasizes that she isn't suggesting that women should quit sex work in society. 12:58 Lav describes herself as "very dogmatic". She adds that she asserts her answers as correct for any topic, even if she has limited knowledge about it. She goes on to describe her "unintentional" tendency to state her opinions as prescriptions/fact. 19:15 Lav accuses Destiny of being a terrible advocate for open relationships, citing dramas involving Chaeiry and REDACTED. 32:18 After stating her contentions with Open relationships Lav describes her "discord husband" whom she constantly sexually harasses. She goes on to say such flirting is within the boundaries of her relationship. 35:00 Lav says she's worried about how Brittany utilizes her platform, and states she may lead women to "being alone at 30" with the lifestyle she advocates for. She also describes Brittany as thinking of herself as the most enlightened person in the world, and thinks she may have Bipolar Disorder. She goes on to say that Brittany might be running a sex cult. Destiny takes issue with these accusations and is forced to defend Brittany. 42:18, Lav describes all the things about Brittany that disgust her: the way she propositions herself above the people she attempts to assist through her "levels" system, the paywall to her "mental health” content, and the sexual content she offers of herself. 1:01:03, Brittany enters the call(high on weed). Lav reiterates that the potentiality for harm(towards women) with sex work is too great. She also states that the harm towards men, parasocially, is also great. She asks Brittany what expertise she's basing her "levels" system off of, and accuses Brittany of basing the system off her mental illness. Lav goes on to say she would never "prescribe" anyone(despite saying she inadvertently prescribes solutions to people earlier). 1:10:25, MrGirl joins the call to assist Lav(MrGirl is not fond of Brittany). 1:22:00, MrGirl takes issue with Lav's approach at debating Brittany and the two argue for some time. Brittany meanwhile expresses confusion with Lav's hatred towards her, as she has never interacted with Lav before this call. 1:24:35, Mrgirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 1:37:15, Lav expresses her frustration at being forced to deal with MrGirl "training" her and Brittany acting like a child. The three argue for some time regarding Brittany's level system, and the way she operates her Patreon. 2:33:51, Lav and Brittany roleplay one of the "personal talks/journey through the levels" that Brittany offers on her Patreon. 2:44:29, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 3:22:37, Lav apologizes for her earlier behavior, concedes Brittany is "smart enough to know what she's doing", and thinks Brittany is actually engaging in harm reduction(she likely states all this to spite MrGirl).

REDACTED discusses a leaked recording of Lav trash talking Destiny

On August 12, 2022, REDACTED shed some light on a leaked recording involving Lav. This conversation occurred on ChudLogic's channel, and lasted around sixteen minutes. The conversation begins with a content creator in Chud's community, Kuihman, alleging that Lav lied about an individual stalking, calling the FBI on her, and posting a photo of her house on a private server. This all occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends.

REDACTED, Chud, and Kuihman go on to listen to a leaked call wherein Lav stated that Destiny wanted to suck her husband's cock, and that she would never sleep with him. In the call, Lav calls Destiny a "cheese-boy", elf, and troll-man. REDACTED says there are two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Discussion Highlights

0:56 Chud discusses why he is still on twitch. 5:38 Chud and REDACTED begin discussing Lav. 6:43 The creator of the video, Kuihman, alleges that Lav lied about a case where an individual was stalking her, and calling the FBI on her. Kuihman goes on to describe how the only thing that substantiated Lav's claim was her calling the FBI on this individual, and the individual posting a photo of her house on a private server. He qualifies that all this occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. 8:55 Kuihman describes how Lav got into a voice call after a conversation with Destiny and stated that he wanted to suck her husband's cock, and she would never sleep with Destiny. 11:30 Chudlogic plays the leaked call. 14:00 REDACTED describes two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel

Lav's dog of choice for Dogwarts

On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the covnersation for half an hour before he got bored. During the call Lav confronts Kuihman over some alleged discord harassment campaigns he and his friends had organized against her.

Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs(her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd.

Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips

From left to right: Destiny, KaiClips, and Lav debating pornography.

On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server.

In the discussion, Lav expresses her mixed feelings towards radical-feminism, asserting her disagreement with many of its tenets but agreeing with some. She emphasizes her lack of concern for transwomen's feelings, specifically mentioning she doesn't care if they don't want to be referred to as male. She also criticizes transwomen for discussing feminist issues related to female socialization. Destiny challenges Lav's rhetoric, warning against taking more "provocative" positions that may lead to social media backlash and a toxic community.

Discussing feminism, Lav identifies her main issue with radical-feminism as its perceived masculinization of women. She labels herself a cultural feminist, aiming for a society that emphasizes women's inherent qualities. Destiny argues that Lav's views might stem from a previously unexamined life, making her vulnerable to new abstract concepts. He uses her relationship with her appearance and her previous OnlyFans involvement to illustrate his point.

On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav suggests casual sex should be restricted to friends. Regarding sex-work, she criticizes the harmful content in porn and its accessibility to children. Lav believes women can't give informed consent in the current scope of sex work, but she'd accept it in a perfectly equal society.

Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue.

Debate Highlights, Destiny vs Lav

11:54 Lav states that she disagrees with a lot of radical-feminism. She goes on to say that unlike radical-feminists, she is against the patriarchy. 12:56 Lav asserts she does not care about optics when discussing feminism with a trans-women. She argues that she will not spare "male-feelings", and does not care if a transwomen does not wish to hear they are male. Destiny, noticing that Lav has made some fairly transphobic remarks, then attempts to bring Lav down from this position. 13:45 Destiny recommends to Lav that she refer to a transwomen's upbringing as "being socialized as a male" as opposed to "man vs women". 14:13 Lav says the first time she was catcalled was at 6 years old. Destiny responds with his understanding of this position, but qualifies that he simply wants Lav to dial back on her rhetoric. He warns against the social media and community consequences. 17:33 Destiny posits an example to Lav: Imagine if he and Chaeiry were in an argument, and another individual joins and sides with Chaeiry. If Destiny were to say this individual was only siding with Chaeiry because she is black, it would be the equivalent to Lav saying she's being mistreated for being the only biological women on a panel with transwomen. Destiny then expresses his understanding of Lav's enjoyment in arguing online, but tells her it's far more enjoyable to argue about ideas rather than putting out fires due to poor rhetoric. 27:39 Lav states her primary disagreement with radical-feminism is the masculinization of women. She goes on to describe herself as a cultural feminist, citing a desire to live in a society where the inherent(nature/nurture) qualities of women are emphasized. Destiny responds that Lav has likely lived(up until a few months ago) a relatively philosophically unexamined life. Lav immediately disagrees and goes on to describe how philosophically charged her life is, before Destiny cuts her off and finishes his initial thought. He responds that a person in her position may be extra susceptible to any new and abstract ideas they hear. 41:58 Destiny describes to Lav the concept of figuring out a fundamental position. The crux of Destiny's argument is that Lav is allowing "the engine around being a women" to be driven entirely by forces external to herself. 51:37 Lav talks about her relationship with her mother, how she became a "god" and she'd go to her mother whenever she had a question(i.e. if her brain was going to fall out). She goes on to describe how her mother calling her "evil" or a "liar" caused her to self abandon as a result. 1:04:13 Destiny asks Lav is she likes to be pretty, or be treated like a pretty person. Lav has trouble answering the question, and eventually Destiny decides to move on. 1:14:53 Destiny asks Lav where her ideas of masculine vs feminine roles come from. Lav responds it's the ability to "create life", and that men are more predisposed to allow others to take care of "that life". Destiny then asks Lav what she thinks of a women who wants to be an engineer and have kids. Lav responds it's fine, but not the norm. 1:17:10 Lav pokes fun at transwomen, stating there are some men who really want to be mothers. Destiny then asks Lav to dial back on the transphobia. 1:18:44 Lav says women are more important than men, but acknowledges they need one another. 1:20:50 Destiny asks Lav how she views sexual interactions between a man and a women, he inquires whether Lav thinks one side is more powerful than the other in the interaction. Lav responds that due to the absence of good maternal relationships with men's mothers, and porn, a lot of sex feels like it's being done to women. She goes on to point out inherent physical differences between the two sexes, stating "one can kill the other with their bare hands". Destiny asks Lav what prescriptions she could give to address this dynamic 1:24:13 Lav says she does not believe in casual sex(with strangers), however she believes people should be having more sex with their friends. 1:31:00 Destiny begins questioning Lav on her sex-work positions. Lav discusses her ideas about an OnlyFans driven towards "being an older sister" to women who are interested in becoming more sex-positive. 1:50:42 Destiny provides the example of sweatshops in China, and segues it into an example of the morality of sex-work in modern day society. 1:55:11 Lav states that if women were abusing men at the same rate, she would not have a problem with BDSM. 2:02:50 Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with.

During the same stream, Kai Clips joins the call to debate pornography with Lav. While both oppose pornographic content, Kai feels Lav doesn't articulate her stance well. The primary distinction is that Lav thinks pornographic content could exist in a scenario where parties give perfect consent, but Kai believes it shouldn't exist at all.

Debate Highlights, Lav vs KaiClips

2:22:37 KaiClips enters the call. Kai utilizes a baby filter to avoid any sexualization from Lav. He goes on to call Lav a succubus. He accuses Lav of making the argument against porn in the least convincing and most irrational way. 2:25:27 Kai describes his position, stating pornography is harmful both secularly and morally. He points to the pornography industry normalizing harmful acts, and the ability to consume pornography. He goes on to say that Lav did initially make these arguments, but qualified that women just need to give more consent, and run porn companies. 2:28:00 Kai elaborates, he does not care for the consent of parties involved in the creation of porn, and finds the depiction of content such as rape and incest to be harmful. Lav is unsure how this conflicts with her previous points. 2:29:38 Destiny attempts to clarify the difference in Lav and Kai's positions. Kai believing porn can exist in no form, while Lav believes it can. The two then debate for some time the feasibility of banning all porn. Kai believes pornography should be labled a public health crisis, while Lav attempts to convey to Kai such argument are futile. 2:39:24 Lav points out that most porn is not abusive to women in the traditional sense. 2:42:51 Lav says it's natural for people to want to view porn, even at a young age. Kai laughs this point off and states younger individuals can just ask their parents for the "birds and the bees" talk. 2:47:29 Kai claims that due to her current lifestyle, Lav is less content than he is. He highlights how she frequently mentions wanting to leave the internet but continues to stay online. 2:52:43 Kai asserts that porn cannot be used for good, and Lav takes issue. Later on Kai states there is no evidence to support the claim "it is healthy to masturbate", Lav also takes issue with this point. 2:57:54 Kai says he has Lav's camera covered, an Destiny attempts to clarify the two debaters points. 3:30:51 Lav describes the relationship between prostitutes and disabled individuals. 3:34:08 Kai starts to leave the call, but Destiny stops him and asks if he truly believes his previously stated positions on sex. The two debate for some time.

Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny

On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist. Destiny, through a good faith interpretation of Lav's position and some meaningful dialogue was able to move Lav towards a less extreme position.

Debate Highlights

2:31 Lav states that no individual has an internal experience of gender. Destiny disagrees, and the two discuss. Lav describes the people that experience some "incongruousness" with their gender to be mentally ill, and suggests secular conversion therapy for these individuals. 6:46 Destiny asserts that a successful conversion therapy method for Transgender individual would have been found by now if it existed. 9:14 Lav expresses her concerns with giving children HRT. She however understands the need for transgender women receiving HRT before puberty can help them integrate into society and reduce the number of suicides within this demographic. 15:03 The two discuss MrGirl's YouTube ban. 17:18 Lav says she is unsure what would convince her nonbinary people exist, and is unsure if an internal experience of gender exists. Destiny goes on to describe the "feelings" of being in tune with one's gender, and what pushes people towards becoming nonbinary. 31:24 Destiny describes the differences between the female and male experiences. The two discuss these differences for some time. 45:11 Lav concedes that there might actually be an experience of gender, but still had trouble grasping the nonbinary experience. She caveates that the the people she had been hearing these experiences from are just "retarded" and unable to adequately convey their position.

Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry

On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav and Zherka. Chaeiry eventually joined the call to discuss her annoyance with Lav. The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. Because Chaeiry was reviewing them, Lav made her vods private. Later, she shares that her experience in MrGirl's community made her strongly against sex work, and she expresses concern about the backlash from changing her stance. Destiny tells her that it's okay for her to change her views occasionally but advises her to avoid making strong statements throughout the process. Lav takes issue with this accusation, and the two debate for some time. Zherka eventually joins the conversation, sparking a debate about the femininity of men and what women genuinely seek in men.

Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote). Chaeiry's primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals.

Debate Highlights

1:43 Lav discusses the Patreon she started. She discusses how she still provides lewd images of herself, yet is still antiporn. 4:36 Lav discusses her falling out with Chaeiry. She discusses her issues with Chaeiry banning her from her chat, reacting to her content, and accesses Chaeiry of "farming" people against her. 8:44 Lav throws her cat. 19:33 Lav discusses joining MrGirl's discord, the friends she made, and becoming engrossed in his community which lead her to becoming anti-sexwork. Destiny responds that Lav is in a "transitionary" period in her life right now, and will naturally have trouble balancing what makes the most sense in her life philosophically and personally. 24:29 Destiny tells Lav it's okay for her to change her mind frequently, she should just avoid making strong statements along the way. Destiny points to inflammatory statements she made in conversations with sex workers. 28:39 Destiny and Lav debate whether or not the content she is providing on Patreon is "lewd" or "sexwork". 36:31 Lav says she likes people seeing her naked. The two then rehash a previous conversation on what it feels like to be a women vs what it feels like to be human. 42:37 Jon Zherka joins the call. He later discusses the "femininity" of the moon, goku, and what women truly look for in men. 53:58 Lav describes Destiny as being catnip for mentally ill women. 1:05:15 Lav states transracialism is just as valid as transgenderism. 1:31:17 Lav disconnects from the call. 1:41:35 The video skips to later in the day, when Chaeiry is speaking with Destiny. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav calling herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote.

Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry WIP

MrGirl adjusting his pants mid-conversation with Chaeiry

On October 16, 2022, Destiny and a panel of orbiters have a discussion on some drama involving Chaeiry and Mrgirl, as well as a "nuke" Lav wanted to drop on Hasan. Chaeiry had thought MrGirl had intentionally lifted his shirt to flash his stomach/lower body, and tweeted out a #metoo style tweet alongside Stardust with regards to it. Chaeiry seeing the backlash towards her accusations, decided to speak with Destiny to get some clarification as to where she messed up. The two talks for a few minutes, and after some further discussion(and some rather aggressive questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that to assume any maliciousness form MrGirl in this instance would be unreasonable.

Later on in the day, Dan joins the call followed by Lav, Aba, and Zherka. Lav brags about "being right" about Chaeiry's character, mentioning her toxicity and alleged mental illness, and defends MrGirl quite vehemently. Destiny takes issue with the harshness of Lav's criticisms, and the two discuss for some time. Throughout the conversation Lav derides Chaiery's character,insults her, and accuses her of betraying MrGirl's friendship and trust. The conversation goes on for about twenty minutes before the panel discusses sex work. Noticing a lull in the topics, Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy, and her heavy-handedness during debates.

Debate Highlights

1:07 Destiny and Chaeiry discuss the allegation Chaeiry levied against MrGirl. Chaeiry shows Destiny the clip wherein she claims MrGirl "flashed his pubes". After watching the clip, Destiny isn't sure what Chaeiry expects him to conclude and doubts that MrGirl intentionally harassed her based on the footage. After some further discussion(and some rather aggressive questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that to assume any maliciousness form MrGirl in this instance would be unreasonable. 15:12 The video skips to later in the day when Dan Joins the call, and Destiny explains the drama. 17:34 The video skips to later in the day when Lav joins the call alongside Aba and Zherka. Lav brags about being correct about Chaiery's character. Destiny takes issue with this accusation and the two discuss. 22:01 Lav claims MrGirl has a "wound", and is very cautious around women. Destiny responds that MrGirl is not, and points to conversations where he makes women quite uncomfortable. Lav then accuses Chaiery of lying for attention. 32:25 The panel discusses sex work, Lav's unban from MrGirl's discord, and race. 37:39 Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy. Lav responds she does not have a position worked out yet and is still developing one. Ahrelevant then asks why Lav takes such a heavy handed approach when criticizing people during these debates. 46:18 Lav discusses a sextoy review she will offer on her Patreon as educational content for women. Ahrelevant acknowledges this, but points to other lewd images she offers on her Patreon and Twitter that are not explicitly educational. Lav responds that she believes those images are neutral, and she receives sexaul gratificaiton from uploading them. 51:43 Darius screams at Lav to shutup.

Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams WIP

On October 23, 2022, after watching several clips of Lav speaking about him on other streams, Destiny decided to confront her.

Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other WIP

On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream.

Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream WIP

On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.

Notable Clips, videos, logs, and tweets WIP

Lav

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