Following further deliberation, Hasan and Destiny remain ever-contentious on the issue of Harris's truancy policy. While Destiny maintains that the policy was justified given the fact that schools lacked the funding to address the issue of Truant children and Harris saw a way to alleviate the issue, Hasan maintained that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority as a DA and should have left the issue alone. The topic concludes with Hasan arguing that Destiny is "overwhelming him with ridiculous hypotheticals", and Destiny responding that every hypothetical he has provided is directly analogous with the situation Harris faced with Truants.
Unfortunately, this portion of the debate was especially mired by several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny due to the poor quality headset/microphone setup Destiny possessed at the time(Destiny did not have access to his typical audio setup, and was unable to raise his voice throughout the debate as he was a guest in someone's home).
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable"
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! colspan="2" | Topic Timestamps
! colspan="2" | Discussion Timestamps
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* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4780 1:19:40] Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. Destiny replies that the children in this scenario would likely die as a result of Hasan's desire to prevent the DOJ from stepping in to assist.
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4780 1:19:40] Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. Destiny replies that the children in this scenario would likely die as a result of Hasan's desire to prevent the DOJ from stepping in to assist.
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4859 1:20:59] Hasan argues that Destiny is sounding like a "tankie" with his authoritarian perspective.
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4859 1:20:59] Hasan argues that Destiny is sounding like a "tankie" with his authoritarian perspective.
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4994 1:23:14] Hasan argues that Destiny is "overwhelming him with ridiculous hypotheticals", and wishes to move on from the topic. Destiny responds that every hypothetical he has posited is directly analogous to the situation Harris faced with truants.
|}
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Revision as of 15:10, 6 September 2024
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Shortly following the conversation, the two streamers created reddit threads detailing their feelings following the initial discussion, and received their own share of community feedback/criticism relating to the dicussion.[2][3] Following an onstream addressal of the conversation and reddit threads by Destiny, both streamers cut ties with one another for some time. [4]
Destiny shares his thoughts on Hasan's "You don't want Kopmala Harris" video.
DGG's Favorability of Kamala before and after viewing Hasan's "You don't want Kopmala Harris" video.[5]
Before
After
Kamala is cool: 16% Lukewarm on Kamala: 60% Hate Kamala: 24%
Kamala is cool: 9% Lukewarm on Kamala: 43% Hate Kamala: 48%
This discussion arose following Destiny's viewing of "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris" on Hasan's channel. Prior to and after viewing the video, Destiny polled his audience(see right) to determine their favorability towards Harris. Following the poll's completion, Destiny found that his audience held a more disfavorable view towards Harris after viewing the video. Upon seeing the results, Destiny explains that he fact-checked every claim by Hasan made in the video, and ultimately concluded that Hasan was wrong in several instances and may have even created the video in bad faith. Destiny went on to chide Hasan for erroneously spreading disinformation about a potential democratic candidate during an election year.
I went through the claims on the video, because I was curious how much of it was maybe exaggerated a little bit, how much of it was completely correct, and then "was there anything in here that was wrong". When I started to go through the claims in this video about Kamala Harris, almost every single thing Hasan says in this video is either dead wrong or horribly stretched out of what's actually happening... Almost every single point, and it actually was like really frustrating to listen to.
Destiny explains that while he could find no information regarding the specific law Hasan is referring to, he was able to find information regarding a law established in that same year which allowed for illegal immigrants charged with a crime to be referred to ICE(with no mention of schools specifically referring students to the agency). Destiny goes on to explain that the law originated following an illegal immigrant being charged with the murder of three individuals, and that Kamala has recently stated that she regrets supporting the law. A chatter later asks if Destiny thinks this video is worse than any others critiquing Harris, given that Kamala is one of the "weirdest" areas of left-wing extreme bias. Destiny replies that it's not weird at all if one takes into account that people on the left hate cops, and that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
Hasan claims that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved "Lock[ing] innocent black mothers up for truancy". Hasan goes on to claim that Harris incarcerated a single, homeless mother of three working two jobs because her children were truants, and then touted it as a success story. Hasan went on to critique Harris for sending a "gestapo force" of intimidating officers(like homicide and gang detectives) to "scare the shit out of a homeless mother of three" into ensuring her children attended school.
Destiny argues that while he remains unsure whether Harris' policy was a net good or bad, Hasan's framing of the policy(that Kamala was sending a "gestapo force" to bully homeless women into sending their children to school) was overtly negative, unfairly framed, and did not accurately represent the intent or outcomes of the policy. Destiny pointed out that Harris's policy was intended to address a real issue—truancy—which is linked to higher rates of criminal behavior and poor outcomes for children. He argued that Harris's use of legal pressure was a way to compel parents to take their children's education seriously and to connect them with resources that could help improve school attendance. Destiny maintains that this is a positive, albeit potentially harsh, intervention, rather than a draconian measure as Hasan implied.
24:38 Destiny finds out that prior to Harris's policy, truancy citations were only issued to parents whose children missed more than fifty days of school(none of which were placed in jail). Following Harris's law, students who missed more than 10% of school days in a year(19 days) without a valid excuse would be subject to a truancy citation.
27:28 A chatter informs Destiny that the truancy policy would disproportionately affect people of color, which is why several people took issue with it. Destiny counters that this is not necessarily bad, especially if people of color were disproportionately having issues sending their children to school. Destiny goes on to argue that the central point of the policy was to provide struggling parents the necessary resources in order to send their children to school. Destiny argues that Hasan disingenuously framed the clip of Harris "touting" the policy to make it seem like she was celebrating sending the "gestapo" to poor families.
37:30 Following a chatter's inquiry with regards to the goal of Harris sending "intimidating" officers, Destiny argues that the "homicide and gang detectives" who were sent to these homes were volunteers. Destiny further argues that while it's possible these detectives were motivated for malicious reasons, it is equally likely that the "disgusting shit" seen daily by these detectives(i.e. 16 year olds with stab wounds), may have motivated them to speak with these families to nip potential future cases in the bud.
Should Kamala have addressed the issues differently?
Hasan argues that Harris should have sought other ways to bolster individuals and address socioeconomic issues in her district that did not involve criminal prosecution.
49:44 Hasan argues Harris should have sought to fix socioeconomic problems instead of being a "draconian prosecutor".
Destiny argues that as a District Attorney, Harris's primary responsibilities included law enforcement and public safety, and therefore, it was natural for her to use those tools to address issues like truancy. Destiny further argued that Harris did not have the the power to create social programs, allocate financial incentives, or directly address broader socio-economic issues. Destiny maintains that Harris's role was limited to enforcing the law and using legal measures to address problems within her jurisdiction. Destiny felt that Hasan's criticism did not fully account for these limitations, and that Hasan unfairly blamed Harris for not pursuing solutions that were beyond her control as a DA.
Timestamps for critique
17:29 Destiny begins his critique, argues that Kamala did what she could within the purview of her position.
32:50 Destiny reiterates that the goal of the policy was to "break the cycle" of poverty, by pushing people to send their children to school, not to simply put the "poorest in society in prison and give them fines they can't pay". Destiny mentions that Harris alleges a 20% increase in children attendance for her district following the institution of the policy, indicating it may have truly had a positive effect.
38:51 Destiny argues that Kamala did what she could within the purview of her position.
41:05 A chatter argues that Harris attempted to address issues outside her purview as a DA. Destiny explains that the actions Harris took were completely within her purview as a DA, arguing that she was attempting to "make her city a safer place". Destiny further argues that Harris managing her police force in a manner that contributed to more kids going to school was "not the worst thing in the world".
50:12 Upon hearing Hasan's argument that Harris should have sought way to fix socioeconomic opportunities, Destiny expresses his confusion arguing that fixing said issues were not within the purview of her job as a DA.
Destiny spends the next hour of his stream fielding questions from his chat and expressing his overall disappointment with individuals in DGG defending Hasan's seemingly unfair position towards Harris, as well as Hasan himself for disseminating such misinformation. Throughout this portion of the stream, Destiny makes clear his regret towards previously making "blanket statements of hate" towards police officers, argues similar statements are a really poor way of making evaluations, and reiterates that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
Man, I really really regret all my previous tweets about hating cops, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have done it so much. I don't think it's good to just blanket hate cops, any more than it's good to blanket hate anybody. I don't think it's a good thing to do. I think there are a lot of shit fucking cops in the US and we have institutional problems with cops in the US, but it really blinds you to seeing anything in an objective manner, when you see a cop, and you instantly like hate every single thing associated with them. I don't know, I think it's a really bad way to go about evaluating a person.
Destiny goes on to express his disdain for statements such as "abolish all prisons", "getting rid of all police", and "all cops are bad", arguing such unproductive statements seem to be prevalent in much of left-leaning rhetoric surrounding crime and police officers. Destiny asserts that there is "two sides to the issue" and "some level of crime that [must be] addressed", which individuals like Hasan tend to refrain from acknowledging in their critiques. Before Destiny can continue his list of grievances, Hasan himself joins the call.
Reaction Timestamps
0:18 Destiny reads the results from a poll he submitted to his chat before viewing Hasan's "You don't want Kopmala Harris" video. The poll initially showed that 16% of people were very-favorable towards her, now down to 9%. 60% were kind of luke warm on her, now down to 43%. 24% hated her before, now it's up to 48%.
0:52 Destiny explains why he feels a lot of the statements that people like Hasan have made about establishment democrats have not been made in good faith. Destiny elaborates that he doesn't feel like the grievances several "lefties" appear to have about "things staying the same" if Biden gets elected are warranted.
1:15 Destiny points to how people are critical of him for critiquing Hasan's "investigative reporting" methods.
1:24 Destiny recounts how he stumbled across Hasan's video, and took note of every claim to fact check. Destiny then points how how every claim about Kamala identified in Hasan's video is either dead wrong or horribly stretched out of what's actually happening.
2:18 Destiny describes how he questioned if he was projecting his hatred of lefties onto Hasan, and wrote down the claims Hasan made to ensure he wasn't doing so.
2:53 Destiny plays an example of a bad-faith claim Hasan made: Hasan asserts Kamala supported a law in 2008 that forced schools to turn over undocumented students over to ICE. Destiny explains that while there is no information regarding the law Hasan is referring to, there is a law in that same year which allowed for illegal immigrants charged with a crime to be referred to ICE. Destiny goes on to explain that the law originated following an illegal immigrant being charged with the murder of three individuals.
4:34 A chatter informs Destiny that schools did in fact give up illegal immigrants to ICE. Destiny replies that he could not find any information relating to that.
5:55 Destiny explains that Harris regrets her support for the bill, and that individuals misinterpreting the actual context of the story do the left a disservice.
6:36 A chatter asks if Destiny thinks this video is worse than any other critiquing Harris, given that Kamala is one of the "weirdest" areas of left-wing extreme bias. Destiny replies that it's not weird at all if one takes into account that people on the left hate cops, and that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
9:04 Destiny plays a position Hasan gave regarding Harris' truancy policy.
10:34 Destiny responds to Hasan's truancy position.
14:01 Destiny replays Hasan's truancy position, and argues Hasan is presenting Harris's position in an overtly negative light.
15:17 Destiny declares his intent to ban chatters who are "insanely anti-cop" in dgg.
16:23 Hasan describes Harris using a "gestapo" force to threaten homeless people.
17:34 Destiny responds to Hasan's claim that Harris should have sought other ways to bolster individuals in her position.
20:12 Destiny draws a parallel between left-leaning individuals arguing against his position in dgg and providing irrelevant links to alt-righters "shotgunning out a million articles relating to IQ" during a debate on race-realism.
21:36 Destiny expresses his desire for better discussions, and argues Hasan's assertion that "Kamala is sending the gestapo" is not very interesting to discuss.
23:05 Destiny discusses how he is no longer idealistic with regards to policy making in the US.
27:28 A chatter informs Destiny that the truancy policy would disproportionately affect people of color, which is why several people had problems with it. Destiny counters that this is not necessarily bad, especially if people of color were having issues sending their children to school.
32:08 Destiny says he regrets making "blanket statements of hate" towards police officers.
34:28 Destiny argues that of all the potential applications of utilizing police officers, using them to encourage parents to send their children to school is the most preferable for a positive community impact.
35:21 Destiny argues with a chatter who claims parents who don't feed their children should be arrested following Destiny's logic. Destiny counters with another hypothetical of potentially using the police to force parents to vaccinate their children.
36:16 Destiny discusses child protectives services role in truancy.
37:30 Destiny discusses why homicide and gang detectives might have volunteered to visit homes of truants.
39:22 A chatter quotes MLK's "white moderate" speech to Destiny, and accuses him of pushing "cop apologia". Following this, Destiny discusses how "nobody wants to do anything ever", and states that he empathizes with the difficulties of politicians like Harris in trying to effect change within their means.
41:05 A chatter argues that Harris attempted to address issues outside her purview as a DA. Destiny explains that the actions Harris took were completely within her purview as a DA, arguing that she was attempting to "make her city a safer place". Destiny further argues that Harris managing her police force in a manner that contributed to more kids going to school was "not the worst thing in the world".
42:10 Destiny explains why he's become increasingly sympathetic towards policy makers. Destiny provides the US intervening in foreign conflicts as an example.
44:23 Destiny provides a hypothetical where US interventionism may be justified. Destiny goes on to discuss the potential for influence vacuums if the US does not intervene in certain global conflicts.
46:45 Destiny discusses his evolving view with regards to US interventionism and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Destiny describes how he was once in support of abandoning the agreement, but now he feels the loss of various protections, and the bolstering of China on the world-stage as the US became more isolated, was not ideal.
50:42 Destiny discuses his disdain for anti-cop rhetoric, and the lack of consideration for "both sides" with regards to criminal issues.
Destiny Confronts Hasan For Twitter Misinfo, Debate Breakdown
Approximately one hour into Destiny recounting of his grievances with Hasan's "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris" video, Hasan himself joins the stream.[7] Upon joining the stream, Hasan asks Destiny what his issues were with the video. Destiny responds by offering to go through every one of his grievances, and Hasan agrees. Of note, Destiny did not have access to his typical headset/microphone setup, and was unable to raise his voice throughout the debate as he was away from home. This, in conjunction with Hasan's personal refusal to use a headset, resulted in several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny. While Destiny had several grievances prepared to discuss with Hasan, the pair only managed to discuss three topics:
Did Kamala force schools to report undocumented students to ICE?
Destiny begins the conversation by informing Hasan that he feels his video is extremely one-sided against Harris, and not fairly presented. He goes on to address the first claim in Hasan's video: Whether Harris supported a law that forced school to report undocumented felonious children over to ICE. While Destiny agrees with Hasan that supporting the policy was a poor choice on Harris's part(especially given the law's allowal for individuals to be deported based on charges), Destiny informs Hasan that schools did not truly have any involvement in this reporting of individuals to ICE. Upon Destiny's explanation of the lack of involvement by schools in the law, Hasan quickly agrees that schools were not responsible for reporting these children. Nonetheless, Hasan maintains that undocumented misdemeanant school children being deported without being charged remains an issue, especially if schools are reporting these children to the police. Hasan then walks back his prior claim, and argues that schools should bear some the blame for reporting these children to the authorities if they commited a crime. Destiny asks Hasan if he is able to understand the distinction between schools cooperating with authorities versus referring children directly to ICE, to which Hasan counters that an officer planted at a school with the capability of reporting a misdemeanant children over to ICE is not functionally different than the school themselves reporting the children. Destiny asks if Hasan's solution would be to remove police officers from schools, Hasan answers in the affirmative, and Destiny attempts to move on to the next topic. Hasan takes issue with this, and the following exchange occurs:
Hasan: Why are you just laughing and saying we need to move on?
Destiny: Because that's just so fucking stupid, what do you mean? Do you just want to kick all police officers out of schools?
Hasan: What do you mean? What do I mean? Do fucking schools need to have cops everywhere?
Destiny: Some do, yeah! What the fuck kind of statement is that, of course some do!
Hasan: abu..uhh..WHAT? Why? Cops should not be in any schools! I feel like I've heard you debate people a million times over about how it's kinda fucked up that we have cops in schools to begin with...what the fuck?
Destiny: I feel like you went to a really nice school and you have no fucking idea like how dangerous some places...
Hasan: No I didn't. I went to school in Turkey and in really fucking shitty neighborhoods as well, we never had cops...It's mind boggling to me that Americans legitimately believe that we need police officers inside of schools.
Throughout the conversation, Destiny posits several hypotheticals to Hasan(outlined below) with regards to undocumented individuals having the police phoned on them, resulting in them eventually being reported to ICE and subsequently deported. Following each hypothetical provided, Hasan's answer would involve some variation of removing police from said space, advising individuals to never call the police, or telling Destiny the hypothetical he provided is not comparable to the initial scenario involving school children. These hypotheticals are outlined in the table below:
If an undocumented child was arrested in a mall for stealing, and then subsequently reported to ICE, would the mall be the one responsible for child being reported to ICE?
Hasan argues that this example is incongruent given that malls are public, Destiny responds that Hasan has it backwards and that schools are public and malls are privately owned. Hasan maintains his position irregardless, and argues that having police officers in a mall is way more reasonable than having police officers in a school.
A homeowner sees two individuals standing outside their home. The homeowner feels nervous about these individuals, so the homeowner calls the police. The individuals turn out to be illegal immigrants, and are deported. Is the homeowner responsible for this deportation?
Hasan responds that the homeowner would be responsible. Destiny then asks Hasan if he believes people should never call the police, to which Hasan replies that people should almost never resort to calling the police.
Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny's analogy is "terrible", as the homeowner is not associated with the strangers standing outside his home, unlike a school which would be responsible for the children that attend it. Destiny replies that he was attempting to explore the concept of complicity with Hasan rather than compare the two scenarios.
If a woman is raped by a hispanic person and calls the cops, is the women complicit in a deportation?
Hasan responds that the women would not be complicit, Destiny asks why, and Hasan responds that the women is being victimized by a crime and not a "random misdemeanor".
A women returning from a party starts walking home and is being followed by some people. The women gets nervous and calls the police, resulting in the two people following her to be arrested. These two people are illegal immigrants and end up being reported to ICE. Is that women playing a part in getting illegals deported? Should she not have done that?
Hasan responds that this is hurting his brain, and argues this hypothetical is incongruent with the initial scenario involving a school. Destiny informs Hasan that he's only positing these hypotheticals because Hasan said to never call the cops. Destiny concludes that Hasan doesn't feel truly feel this way, pointing to his hesitancy to respond to some of the hypotheticals.
After a pause, Hasan argues that while the women would be somewhat complicit in the immigrant being deported, it would be more understandable than a school calling the police on a child.
Following the hypothetical involving a women returning from a party, Hasan goes on to state that he would never call the police if he was in any of the aforementioned scenarios, and would urge others to refrain from doing so as well. Destiny responds that this is among the most privileged arguments he has ever heard.
Hasan: I probably wouldn't [call the cops] and I would urge someone else to not do that as well, but it's more understandable and it doesn't really matter because under none of these circumstances are you under obligation of the person you are calling the cops on.
Destiny: You're giving me like one of the most privileged arguments I have ever heard in my entire life. You're literally telling me that if you're a women, and you're walking down the street, and you might be scared because people are following you, [you're saying that] it's pretty rude of you to call the cops, it's a pretty mean thing to call the cops. What if you have a person that lives in your neighborhood where there has been a lot of break-ins, what if you're somebody who has had their house broken into before and are worried that somebody is gonna do it. It's easy for you to say like "oh well you should never call the cops ever ever". I don't know if you've been in these situations, or you know people who have been in these situations, that's a pretty shitty thing to say to people that are maybe or actually fearing for stuff like that. Like I feel like that's really crazy like oh you should just never ever call the cops ever."
Hasan: Why the fuck would you say it's a privileged argument? Dude ask the fucking people who live in poor neighborhood if they choose to call the cops in these circumstances or not okay? What are you talking about? Have you talked with a person who lives in a poor neighborhood? I'm confused right now. What? What?
Following further deliberation, Hasan asserts that most poor individuals share his position on cops, and further argues that police do not truly increase the security in neighborhoods they monitor. This results in two more hypotheticals from Destiny before a seemingly fatigued Hasan asks what the main point of the discussion was to begin with. Destiny informs Hasan: Schools don't refer people to ICE, the police do when one is charged with a crime. Hasan concedes that Kamala did not report undocumented students to ICE, and he made a mistake in his video.
:10 Hasan asks what Destiny's issue was with his video. Destiny replies that following a three hour flight in which he viewed the video in it's entirety, he concluded that it was extremely one-sided and not fairly presented.
0:41 Following Destiny's offer to walk through the video with Hasan , Hasan replies that Destiny could simply give his exact grievances with the video to "tackle one-by-one".
1:01 Hasan summarizes his perspective on Kamala Harris, arguing she is over-prosecutorial and has repeatedly walked back statements made on the debate stage.
2:43 Destiny points to the first claim Hasan made in the video, that Kamala was forcing schools to refer undocumented students to immigrations and customs enforcement. Destiny informs Hasan that this claim was false, and was more concerning immigrants who were charged with crimes.
3:02 Hasan responds that the law Destiny is referring to would allow for undocumented workers who were protected via sanctuary cities to now be arrested. Destiny restates his claim, Hasan states he does not recall entirely what he said, and the two go over the exact timestamp the claim was made together.
4:35 Hasan informs Destiny that the majority of his points were gathered from a twitter thread containing things he already knew about.
5:23 Hasan and Destiny go to the point in the video where Hasan made his claim.
6:21 Destiny explains the goal of the law Hasan is referring to: Undocumented individuals who were charged with a crime would be referred to ICE, with no school involvement. Hasan eventually agrees that he made a mistake in the video when stating that schools aided in the deportation of students.
8:32 While Hasan concedes to making a mistake in the video, he maintains that Harris still supported the policy which still allowed students to be deported.
10:13 Hasan argues that school students were still being reported for misdemeanors without being charged for a crime. Destiny counters that Hasan wouldn't blame a school if cops were to come in and kill students. Hasan counters that the school would bear some of the blame as they were the ones who called the police.
12:16 Hasan argues that cooperating with authorities still places the school at blame, and informs Destiny he can't read DGG chat anymore without getting irritated.
13:48 Destiny argues that schools are supposed to cooperate with authorities. Hasan counters that sanctuary cities exist where schools are explicitly not permitted to cooperate with authorities. Destiny argues that while schools aren't typically involved with referring children over to ICE, they still generally cooperate with authorities.
15:40 Upon Hasan referring to misdemeanant children being reported to ICE, Destiny corrects Hasan and informs him that felonious children were in fact being reported.
15:59 Hasan argues that Destiny is bogging the conversation down in pedantics, and that they should be focusing on Harris lying about her perspective on the law.
16:53 Destiny asks Hasan once more if he understands the difference between schools reporting children to ICE versus reporting them to the police. Hasan acknowledges the difference and the conversation continues.
21:03 Destiny reiterates that the primary issue is Hasan statement implying schools are reporting children to ICE. Hasan argues that he followed this statement up with context immediately after saying it, Destiny informs Hasan this is irrelevant.
21:40 Hasan argues that a cop being stationed at a school is not functionally different than the schools themselves reporting the felonious children. Destiny asks if Hasan's solution would be to remove police officers from school, Hasan argues that would be a valid solution, and Destiny chooses to move on to the next topic.
24:04 Hasan argues that schools outside of the United States do not have police officers stationed at schools. Destiny counters that schools outside of the US don't tend to have school shooting, Hasan argues this is a recent phenomena, and Destiny responds "wait, when was Columbine?"
25:02 Hasan argues that the presence of an officer at a school is not conducive to a learning environment.
25:49 Destiny posits a hypothetical to Hasan: If an undocumented child was arrested in a mall for stealing, and then subsequently reported to ICE, would the mall be the one responsible for child being reported to ICE? Hasan argues that this example is incongruent given that malls are public, Destiny responds that Hasan has it backwards and that schools are public and malls are privately owned. Hasan maintains his position irregardless, and argues that having police officers in a mall is way more reasonable than having police officers in a school.
28:02 Hasan argues that the policy Harris supported is bad given that it allowed for children to be deported based off charges and not convictions, Destiny agrees but maintains that Hasan erroneously stated in the video that schools were responsible for the deportation of these children.
31:40 Destiny posits a hypothetical to Hasan of an illegal immigrant being deported following a homeowner phoning the police on them. Hasan responds that the homeowner would be responsible, Destiny asks Hasan if people should never call the police, and Hasan responds in the affirmative. Hasan later calls the hypothetical terrible.
32:59 Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan, if a woman is raped by a hispanic person and calls the cops, is she complicit in a deportation?
34:53 Hasan argues that while the women would be somewhat complicit in the immigrant being deported, it would be more understandable than a school calling the police. Hasan goes on to argue that he would never call the police himself, and would urge others to refrain from doing so as well. Hasan further argues that the individual calling the police is somewhat responsible for the person they are calling the police on.
36:52 hasan argues that most people not in privileged positions share his lack of trust in the police. Hasan further argues that police do not truly increase the security in neighborhoods they monitor.
38:29 Destiny informs Hasan that it feels like his entire video is just Hasan saying hates cops. Hasan responds that his hatred of cops is irrelevant, to which Destiny counters that Hasan himself is throwing around words like "gestapo" and that Hasan's point throughout the video was how horrible police, and by extension Harris, are.
41:01 Following Destiny explaining how they got bogged down into the semantics of whether calling a police officer means you tacitally supports everything a police department does, Hasan asks what the main point of the discussion was. Destiny informs Hasan the main point of the topic: Schools don't refer people to ICE, the police do when one is charged with a crime.
Truancy Policy
Destiny and Hasan spent quite some time discussing Harris' Truancy policy, and whether Hasan unfairly framed the facts/circumstances surrounding the policy. Throughout the debate, Hasan maintains the same points asserted in his initial video; He argues that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved locking up the mothers' of these truants. Hasan further contends that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority when instituting this policy, and that a DA such as Harris should not have addressed the issue relating to truant children at al. Destiny routinely attempts to counter this talking point throughout the discussion, arguing that that while he intuitively leans against the policy, Hasan's framing of the policy places Harris in an unnecessarily poor light. Destiny explains that Harris saw an issue in her district with children not attending school, and sought to alleviate the issue through the means she had available. Destiny goes on to explain that the best way to break the "cycle of criminality" would be to ensure children attended school, and argues that this issue would rightfully place the issue under Harris's purview with that in mind.
At one point during the discussion, Hasan argues that Destiny is blatantly taking a biased approach towards reviewing his content. Destiny responds that several of Hasan's arguments were backed by invalid underlying facts(outlined here), and therefore any conclusions drawn from those pieces of information were also invalid. Destiny continues, and argues that Hasan in fact has frequently shown his own biases towards the police/Harris given that he referred to the police as the "gestapo" in his video, and just stated he hates cops. Destiny reiterates that the underlying facts in Hasan's video are incorrect, and every time they attempt to move away from one fact in the conversation, Hasan reverts to some prior point(e.g. ICE and schools). Destiny goes on to assert that Hasan is arguing in a similar fashion to a race realist:
"This is like every argument I've ever had with a race realist who's like "well I think this thing", and it's like "well hold on like these underlying facts don't make sense". Then when you start to address some of the underlying facts, they keep retreating back to their higher level position ignoring all of the other underlying facts that were incorrect."
Throughout the conversation, Destiny positied a myriad of hypotheticals to Hasan pertaining to whether the DA would be justified in stepping in to enforce their authority in scenarios where other institutions failed to do so, especially with regards to truancy and "state-violence". Hasan's response to these hypotheticals would more often than not be some variation of asserting the DA should do nothing, asserting that locking up mothers of truants is a poorer outcome than students failing to go to school, and arguing that other departments could handle the hypothetical issue presented without the use of state-violence(e.g. jailing individuals). To each of these rebuttals by Hasan, Destiny maintained that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system, and further lessens the likelihood they will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Destiny further argues that the government utilizes state-violence frequently to get people to act in the best interest of the state, and questions why Hasan has undertaken a "dumb libertarian mindset" with regards to personal freedom with regards to truancy.
The exact scenarios Destiny and Hasan deliberated on with regards to state-violence are presented in the table below:
Destiny asks Hasan who he believes should be making kids to go to school.
Hasan responds that governments should use positive influences(e.g. better classrooms, basketball programs) to ensure kids stay in school. Destiny continues the hypothetical, and asks Hasan what should be done if the children continue to fail to go to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny has placed him in an "unrealistic corner", and reiterates his point that well-funded schools tend to see better children attendance rates.
Destiny restates his question regarding "who should make kids go to school", and if the state should force kids to go to school if they have lazy parents.
Hasan retorts that lazy parents should not have to force their kids to go to school in this "ridiculously created, hypothetical strawman."
Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction)
Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction. Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle these issues.
Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him.
Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood these individuals will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect.
If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids?
Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. Destiny argues that the children in Hasan's analogy would likely starve to death without the DA's assistance.
If you're the DA, and nobody else is dealing with the problem of kids starving to death. Should you send the police in to help the kids or do you let them starve to death?
Hasan responds that he would allow the children to starve.
Following further deliberation, Hasan and Destiny remain ever-contentious on the issue of Harris's truancy policy. While Destiny maintains that the policy was justified given the fact that schools lacked the funding to address the issue of Truant children and Harris saw a way to alleviate the issue, Hasan maintained that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority as a DA and should have left the issue alone. The topic concludes with Hasan arguing that Destiny is "overwhelming him with ridiculous hypotheticals", and Destiny responding that every hypothetical he has provided is directly analogous with the situation Harris faced with Truants.
Discussion Timestamps
42:21 Hasan and Destiny begin discussing Harris's truancy policy. Destiny begins by asking Hasan to elucidate his position. Hasan argues that Harris forced the state to ensure parents sent their children to school, and asserted that this is "awful" and indicative of Harris's perspective on how to use the law/the threat of state-sponsored violence.
43:17 Destiny asks Hasan what else he thinks Harris could have done to address the issue of children not attending school. Hasan responds that Harris could not have put the law in place.
43:28 Destiny posits a hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA, and you have a situation where you have a parent who refuses to send their child to school, should you leave it be or take steps to alleviate the situation? Hasan responds that the DA does not typically have much power in this regard, and a more progressive DA would not do anything about it. Hasan argues that the most action a DA should take in this situation is "use their power to vote". Hasan goes on to chide Harris for instituting a policy that "scared the shit out of mothers", and argues these individuals should not have been threatened with jail time.
44:44 Following Hasan pointing to an instance where a homeless mother of three truants was victimized by Harris's policy and threatened with jail time, Destiny responds that the end result of this scenario was the children returning to school and the mother receiving no charges. Destiny argues that this women wasn't truly a "victim" as Hasan described, and was better off following the policy.
45:06 Hasan asks if he believes Harris's policy was successful, Destiny responds in the affirmative as more children were going to school, and Hasan asks if Destiny would be content with a policy where parents were threatened at gunpoint to send their children to school. Hasan further chides Destiny for having a "ridiculous metric for success".
45:35 Hasan criticizes Harris(and by extension Destiny) for supporting a policy that allowed for states to "monopolize violence". Destiny argues that citizens should want the state to have a "monopoly on violence", as the alternative would be citizens murdering one another.
46:50 Hasan criticizes Destiny for arguing semantics regarding Harris's Truancy policy, to which Destiny responds that he is forced to do so given the unfair framing Hasan is presenting Harris's truancy policy.
47:35 Hasan argues that Harris's policy of "locking up mothers of truants" was an exercise in excessive force. Destiny argues that while he intuitively leans against the policy, Hasan's framing of the policy places Harris in an unnecessary poor light. Destiny explains that Harris saw an issue in her district with children not attending school, and sought to alleviate the issue through the means she had available. Destiny goes on to explain that the best way to break the "cycle of criminality" would be to ensure children attended school, and argues that this issue would rightfully place the issue under Harris's purview.
49:12 Hasan reasserts that Harris should not be looking to resolve issues relating to truants as a DA, and the method she chose to go about addressing traunts was excessive. Destiny explains that the law isn't as punitive as Hasan makes out, and informs him that punitive measures would only be undertaken against the truant's parents as a last resort. Destiny goes on to explain how Harris was attempting to address the potentiality for these truants to become criminals, by getting them to attend school.
50:43 Hasan reasserts that Harris should not be looking to resolve issues relating to truants as a DA.
51:33 Hasan argues that Harris stated in a video that she supports funding prisons, and finds the prospect of funding schools to be laughable. Destiny counters that Harris never said as much, that she supports funding schools, and one has to accept the fact that some level of funding for prisons is a necessity.
52:52 Destiny argues that Harris stated one has to address crimes in a community in some fashion, and voters would not feel safer by things like "building more schools over prisons". Destiny goes on to explain that this "desire to feel safer" is motivates voters quite a bit, and points to examples such as the patriot act and the election of Donald Trump. Hasan counters that we should not cater to voters fears when trying to resolve issues.
53:55 Hasan argues that Harris has always been anti-immigration, and assisted in policy that would remove sanctuary cities. Destiny counters that Harris has always been in support of immigrants, and points to her support of "Dreamers" and sanctuary status as a concept. Hasan responds that this is his primary point, and asserts that Harris has a tendency to "say one thing" and take an action counter-intuitive to that statement.
55:26 Hasan asserts that politifact fact checked most of the claims Hasan had made in the video. Destiny counters that Hasan's claims had little to do with what was fact-checked in his video and provides the previously debated example of Harris not using schools to said children to ICE but the police force. Hasan argues that Harris did in fact lie about this, and knew what the intended outcome was, Destiny agrees, and Hasan's states this was his primary point all along. Hasan restates that Harris would be a poor candidate because she's not consistent.
57:36 Destiny informs Hasan that the narrative he is pushing in the video is that Harris is incredibly anti-immigration, which Destiny argues is not true. Destiny then asks Hasan what he believes Harris's position on illegal immigrants is. Hasan replies that Harris is aesthetically pro-immigration in that she would only advocate for policies on stage but refrain from taking action when given the opportunity. Hasan elaborates this is a similar tactic former President Barack Obama took, and asserts this is why he personally hates the Democratic party.
59:37 Destiny explains to Hasan that he would take no issue with his statements regarding Harris if the underlying facts in his speech logically followed. Destiny explains that is the primary contention they are having right now.
1:00:12 Hasan attempts to backtrack to the previously settled point regarding ICE and schools.
1:00:48 Hasan reiterates that a DA should not be attempting to resolve issues regarding children going to school. Destiny takes issue with this and restates his point regarding why a DA would want want to nip the potential for truants to become future criminals in the bud. Destiny pointedly asks Hasan if a DA can do anything in this scenario, and Hasan argues they should not. Destiny then asks Hasan why he didn't just make a thirty minute video saying "all cops are bastards", to which Hasan responds "I have done that before, and I will do that again".
1:02:11 Hasan argues that Destiny may take a biased approach towards reviewing his content. Destiny responds that Hasan in fact has the "massive hate boner" given that he referred to the police as the "gestapo" in his video, and just stated he hates cops. Destiny reiterates that the underlying facts in Hasan's video are incorrect, and every time they attempt to move away from one fact in the conversation, Hasan brings it up again(e.g. ICE and schools). Destiny goes on to assert that Hasan is arguing in a similar fashion to a race realist:"This is like every argument i've ever had with a race realist, who's like "well I think this thing" and it's like "hold on, I think these underlying facts don't make sense". When you start to address the facts they keep retreating back to their higher level positions, ignoring all of the underlying facts were incorrect. That's what it feels like here.
1:03:00 Despite admitting to being incorrect earlier, Hasan argues that none of his underlying facts within the video were incorrect. Hasan responds that it is over-prosecutorial for Harris to use her powers as a DA to lock up parents of truants. Destiny responds that Hasan is once again unfairly framing Harris and her policy, and argues that the policy may genuinely be forcing "lazy parents" to ensure their children get to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny is beginning to sound like a reactionary.
1:03:40 Hasan argues that the policy is evidence that Harris is willing and able to use state-violence to threaten individuals to follow the law. Destiny retorts that we use state-violence to "get people to do everything", and Hasan doesn't get to disagree with that because he agrees with taxes. Destiny argues that this is a "dumb libertarian mindset" that Hasan has taken, and argues that "we always use state-violence to get people to act in the best interest of the state. Before Destiny can finish his statement, Hasan cuts him off, and Destiny proceeds to bury his head in his hands.
1:04:52 Destiny asks Hasan who he believes should be making kids to go to school. Hasan responds that governments should use positive influences(e.g. better classrooms, basketball programs) to ensure kids stay in school. Destiny continues the hypothetical, and asks Hasan what should be done if the children continue to fail to go to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny has placed him in an "unrealistic corner", and reiterates his point that well-funded schools tend to see better children attendance rates.
1:06:06 Hasan argues that Destiny is making an "ends justify the means" argument in an argument where Destiny agrees that the means are excessive, to which Destiny responds he is a consequentialist and always makes these kind of arguments. Before Destiny can continue his point, Hasan interrupts him once more, and Destiny states "holy shit dude you have not let me finish a single point".
1:07:31 Destiny restates his question regarding "who should make kids go to school", and if the state should force kids to go to school if they have lazy parents. Hasan retorts that lazy parents should not have to force their kids to go to school in this "ridiculously created, hypothetical strawman."
1:08:00 Destiny asks Hasan if the state should have the power to force kids to be vaccinated. Hasan responds in the affirmative, and Destiny asks why this would be okay but forcing kids to attend school would not be. Hasan explains that herd-immunity is important for the efficacy of vaccines, and argues that this should be mandated even at gunpoint if necessary.
1:08:50 Destiny questions why Hasan believes the state should enforce violence on an issue that would improve the outcomes on all of society(vaccines), why is it so ridiculous to think the state should also be invested and making sure that kids actually show up at school. Hasan retorts that children failing to get vaccinated is infinitely more harmful than children failing to show up to school, and criticizes Destiny for creating a "ridiculous hypothetical". Destiny responds that the "ridiculous hypothetical" Hasan is referring to is "literally the hypothetical that Kamala Harris advocated for working". After further deliberation, Hasan ultimately maintains his prior conclusion that the state should not force "lazy parents" to send their children to schools, and continues to critique Destiny's "ridiculous hypothetical".
1:10:52 Destiny explains that his general thoughts on the manner is that the state has a vested interest in child, and one of the best ways to break the cycles of poverty is education, which would mean the state should try to ensure more children get to school, even if it requires state violence. Hasan sarcastically suggests that the DA should be involved in every manner in this regard, and sarcastically suggests that the DA should continue to lock up mothers of truants. Hasan reiterates that the main concern should be funding these schools, Destiny responds that Harris can't do anything in that regard, to which Hasan maintains Harris should not do anything to alleviate this issue.
1:12:27 Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction). Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction.
1:15:25 Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle certain issues. Destiny responds that the DA may be forced to step in when other institutions are failing to accomplish certain goals.
1:16:13 Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him. Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood they will resort to a live of criminality. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect.
1:17:26 Hasan argues that lazy parents not sending their children to schools is not a real problem. Destiny then asks Hasan what the alternative explanations to the parent not contacting the school are. Hasan refuses to answer the question, and posits a question of his own to Destiny: "What other inefficiencies would you use state violence to improve?" Destiny responds that Paying taxes, ensuring kids go to school, vaccinations, and ensure children receive proper nutrition would be viable use-cases for state violence. Hasan counters that a mother in a food desert may not have enough money to provide for their children, and the DA stepping in to jail that parent would be overtly cruel. Destiny responds that in Hasan's analogy, the children would simply die because he believes the DA should not be intervening in these scenarios.
1:19:40 Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. Destiny replies that the children in this scenario would likely die as a result of Hasan's desire to prevent the DOJ from stepping in to assist.
1:20:59 Hasan argues that Destiny is sounding like a "tankie" with his authoritarian perspective.
1:23:14 Hasan argues that Destiny is "overwhelming him with ridiculous hypotheticals", and wishes to move on from the topic. Destiny responds that every hypothetical he has posited is directly analogous to the situation Harris faced with truants.
Do Kamala Harris's donors make her untrustworthy?
Conclusion
Upon the calls conclusion, Destiny offered to do a second debate on the subject should Hasan wish, and Hasan agreed. From there, the two seemingly depart from the call amiably.
Destiny and Hasan create reddit threads following the debate WIP
↑ Last Night On Destiny. (2024, February 7). Destiny Confronts Hasan For Twitter Misinfo, Bridge In FLAMES! | DEBATE BREAKDOWN. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvKIFQ3yh-c
