Vaush

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Vaush
Ian Kochinski
Personal Information
Status Active Political Alignment Libertarian Socialist Occupation Streamer Country of Origin USA
Online Information
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Destiny Awards 2020 Antagonist OTY

Ian Kochinski (born February 14, 1994), better known as Vaush or IrishLaddie, is an American left-wing YouTuber and former friend of Destiny. The earliest recorded interaction between Vaush and Destiny occurred in December 2012, when they discussed feminism. Sometimes his hands are cold.

Background

Vaush began streaming on Twitch under the name IrishLaddie before rebranding to Vaush. He describes himself as a libertarian socialist and frequently covers topics related to left-wing politics, social justice, and online political discourse. Following his appearances on Destiny's stream, he has built a following on YouTube and Twitch through political commentary, debates, and react content.

Relationship with Destiny

Vaush and Destiny's relationship has gone through several phases over the years. Their earliest known interaction dates back to December 2012, when Vaush (Then Irishladdie) appeared on Destiny's stream to discuss feminism and economic-revolution. During the mid-to-late 2010s, the two maintained a largely friendly dynamic, frequently collaborating on political discussions and debate panels.

Their relationship became increasingly strained over time due to political disagreements, personal conflicts, and various disputes over online conduct. These tensions further escalated through 2020, with debates like their confrontation over the morality of Kyle Rittenhouse in August 2020. The relationship reached its breaking point in February 2021 when Vaush called out Destiny over his PhilosophyTube tweets, leading to an even more heated debate that effectively ended their relationship. By this point, the two had largely become adversarial, and the limited interactions since then have been quite hostile.

Fortress Arc

On March 26, 2022 Vaush announced the beginning of his Fortress Arc. The arc was primarily started as a result of drama Vaush had been embroiled in with the content creator Contrapoints and author J.K. Rowling . The goal of the arc was to "purge the toxicity from within", and move away from reactive/drama-driven content. During the stream, Vaush expressed his desire to move toward content that is more aligned with "affirmative community behavior", such as "making things" instead of constantly being forced to defend his actions or himself. Vaush explains that fighting any drama or preconceived notions against him would be a fruitless effort, given the fact that his detractors rarely, if ever, change their position on his character no matter how often he addresses such claims. He argues that the only logical way forward would be to give people a better narrative to focus on (aka a Fortress to admire) rather than attacking whatever notions they already held.

I think it's about building another narrative. I don't think we can change people's minds by convincing them that they're wrong about their interpretations of me. I think we can get them to think better of me by giving them something good to focus on, which then might lead them to reconsider the negative perceptions they have of me. And there's a critical difference between those two, because one of them is offensive and the other is constructive. In one of them you attack the narrative they already hold, and in the second you build a new narrative — a fortress, if you will — and as people appreciate and admire your fortress, they reconsider: how could a person who has done these things be this bad person I've heard of?

— Vaush on building the Fortress Arc.

Notable Appearances and on-stream reactions

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12-26-2012 A conversation with Vaush (Irishladdie): feminism and the revolution

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2012-12-26 A conversation with Vaush (Irishladdie): feminism and the revolution

On December 26, 2012 Destiny held a roughly two-hour long Skype call with a Shit Reddit Says (SRS) subreddit member and self-described feminist, Vaush (at the time known as Irishladdie). This conversation comes just months after ShitRedditSays had successfully pressured sponsors to get Destiny removed from ROOT Gaming in August 2012. Despite this, the conversation is largely civil, and the two discuss topics such as rape culture, racism, internalized misogyny, and whether ShitRedditSays' "Project Panda" campaign against a creepshots subreddit was justified(the same sponsor-pressure tactic that had been used against Destiny himself).

During the conversation, Destiny argues that Vaush and SRS's definition of "enthusiastic consent" would likely result in the majority of otherwise consensual sexual-interactions between partners to be labeled as rape, and greatly weakens the meaning of the word. Vaush responds that he has never heard a rape victim disagree with how fervently they persecute rapists, and asserts he is content with such standards as it allows for rapists to be more easily persecuted. A similar conversation is carried on throughout the call with Destiny pointing to various ways in which SRS paints instances of "rape" or other methods of consent violation with too broad of a brush, and Vaush countering that such an overzealous tactic is justified as it is more important to "do right" by the individuals suffering the most from such instances than appeasing their critics or avoid harming individuals who may inadvertently be caught in the crossfire.

From the halfway point of the call and onwards, the two hold a lengthy debate on the ethicality of the "mob mentality" tactics employed by SRS in taking down the creepshots subreddit (e.g. threatening advertisers and doxing the head moderator of the subreddit). Destiny argued that the organizers of the campaign had rallied large groups of people to destroy the subreddit without providing any explicit "objective basis" for doing so. Destiny would go on to assert that accepting "mob-mentality" tactics as a legitimate vehicle for political action (even on the chance that cause is truly morally justifiable) caused the movement to be essentially indistinguishable from any other ideological group claiming moral certainty without having to defend itself (e.g. Nazis). Repeatedly when Destiny presented this argument, Vaush would retort that ending the suppression of oppressed groups or enacting meaningful change in society is more important than watching for victims of "mob mentality" or attempting to maintain "intellectual honesty".

Debate Timestamps

5:46 Vaush joins the call, begins to introduce himself before Destiny interrupts him to rage about his game's save file. 13:44 Vaush points out that a chatter has been "riding him" since he entered the call, then apologizes for using a hetero-normative statement. 13:55 Destiny asks if he were to call someone a "faygot" instead of faggot, would that still be bad from a feminist standpoint? Vaush responds that he does not know, but he's not actually a feminist scholar. 17:08 Conversation begins 18:25 Vaush attempts to identify what Destiny's problem is with ShitRedditSays(SRS). He claims that Destiny believes the radical method in which the subreddit engages with feminist movements, delegitimizes "real" feminist issues. Destiny agrees and states this is one of his issues with the subreddit. Vaush goes on to list the problems with SRS. 21:07 Vaush confesses that SRS is a "proud" circle jerk, states he is only here to defend SRS from the angle that it is not representative of feminism nor is it obligated to be. He goes on to state that the current attitude of the subreddit is a result of it's "opponents". 23:39 Destiny points to a "reverse privilege-vibe" occurring in the subreddit, and subreddit members "hijacking" words and giving them new meaning(e.g. racism). 25:18 Vaush identifies two problems with SRS in becoming a more "accepting" node of feminism(comparing themselves to r/atheism): 1. The fact they are unwilling to change due to demands placed on them by Bigots 2. There's nothing they could do to make the aforementioned bigots not dislike them. 26:45 Destiny states he disagrees with Vaush's "r/atheism" comparison, claiming that while r/atheism is elitist, they do not "maliciously invade" or brigade subreddits like SRS. Destiny goes on to claim that members of SRS tend to characterize their opponents as the "worst possible hyperbole" of whatever ideology also contains the word they use(e.g. a man pointing out how their partner may not be sexually interested at some points would be labled as a "rapist" and downvoted). Vaush offers to explain, but Destiny counters that there can be no good explanation for this behavior. 28:17 Vaush explains that such behavior is inherent in all "activist" subreddits. Destiny and Vaush proceed to have a back and forth about the justifiability of various "brigading" actions taken by SRS(e.g. linking posts from other subreddits, someone's home address, etc..). Throughout this portion of the conversation, Vaush counters that while he will not defend brigading, he does not care if other subreddits feel like they're being brigaded, and that he does not care for the general "internet points" of the bigots they're brigading. He caveats that the subreddit still follows reddit guidelines with regards to the screenshotting of other subreddits, and that brigading is just something that happens as a result of their advocacy. 30:32 Vaush points to a portion of Destiny's post where he identifies that SRS instantly bans people who come to their subreddit. Vaush argues they ban because they "do not tolerate" any form of derailment. He argues that other subreddits that were initially designed to be female-friendly spaces(e.g. 2xchromosomes), have been overrun with mansplaining. Destiny counters that the brand of feminism being sold by SRS is far too extreme, and that there are plenty of minority groups that they may claim to defend who vehemently disagree with the stuff they say. 31:28 Vaush argues any minority groups offended by the actions of SRS have "internalized" the bigotry they've experienced. Destiny disagrees with this, and the big intellectual 'fuck you" of a subreddit composed of majority white males informing minorities they have internalized some bigotry and are thinking the wrong way. Vaush responds that for every person they alienate, they get even more people who agree with them. 34:13 Destiny and Vaush debate internalized misogyny accusations as they pertain to SRS. Destiny arguing subreddit members tend to paint accusations of internalized misogyny with a broad brush towards all their critics, and Vaush arguing they don't care if a few people feel alienated. The two proceed to go through several examples of individuals "bullied" on the subreddit. 41:11 Destiny and Vaush discuss rape culture, and debate the concept of "enthusiastic consent". Destiny arguing that Vaush and SRS's definition of the concept would likely result in the majority of otherwise consensual sexual-interactions between partners being labled as rape. Vaush responds that he has never heard a rape victim disagree with how fervently they persecute rapists, and that he is content with such standards as it allows for rapists to be more easily persecuted. 45:17 Destiny laments not archiving more threads to help illustrate his point on SRS over-labeling individuals as rapists. Vaush argues that they're simply performing a "circle-jerk" when doing this, and would not devalue a conversation by arguing the "minutia" of what constitutes a rapist. Destiny responds that such over-labeling devalues the "actual people" who should be condemned. 46:45 Destiny points to hypothetically labeling every shooting as a genocide devaluing actual genocides. Vaush counters that genocides have no problems getting recognized, while rapes do. Destiny argues once more that the definition being used for rapes is far too broad. 49:51 Destiny and Vaush debate the various forms SRS has defined a "rape" having occurred. Destiny stating they paint the occurrence of a rape with too broad of a brush, and Vaush arguing it's justified. 55:39 Destiny states Vaush and members of SRS are making the word "rape" seem a lot less powerful than it is. 57:30 Vaush claims that as society grows to be more progressive, the line between what's right and what's wrong will be very thin and mean very different things(much like Racism in the 50s compared to today). Vaush goes on to claim that he and the subreddit care more about doing right by the individuals suffering the most from such instances, than appeasing those who may be caught in the crossfire. Destiny reiterates his point regarding SRS alienating potential supporters. 1:00:06 Vaush asserts that the argument they're having is moot, and that the world will become a much more progressive place in 200 years, and that society will inevitability become more progressive. Destiny argues that there's no point in saying anything at all if this is the case. Vaush replies that he likes hearing the sound of his own voice. 1:01:15 Destiny takes issue with Vaush's assertion that "things will change on their own", arguing that such a statement is an insult to those who took great strides to enact changes during the Civil Rights era. Vaush replies by tempering his initial statement, stating that this "progressive bend" is only the case as long as progressives continue to "do their job" 1:03:01 The two debate SRS's overuse of the word rape once more. Destiny draws a comparison to 1984 and "new speak". The two go on to debate whether changing the definition of rape constitutes "new speak". 1:05:18 Destiny argues it is never acceptable to sacrifice intellectual integrity to further a cause. Vaush counters he would not do "anything" to further feminism if the cost is too great. 1:10:16 Vaush argues a balance must be struck between intellectual integrity and the safety/well being of the people they discuss. He goes on to argue that getting caught up in debating differences between oppressed and oppressors will allow bigots to get attached to their movement like a barnacle(pointing specifically to "social Darwinism" as a "plague". 1:12:39 Vaush states the end goal is to allow for no threats to be present against these indivdiuals. Destiny counters that this is "nazi-ism 101". The two go on to discuss the evolving standards of "racism". 1:19:07 Affirmative action discussion Vaush argues that the worst thing that can happen in America is a single class dominates in a global hegemony. Destiny counters that he doesn't care if a minority class ends up usurping and becoming the reigning group, he would just hate for individuals are barred from attempting things in life due to certain diversity quotas. Vaush disagrees with this framing and the two discuss. 1:28:02 Vaush argues that the worst thing that could happen if SRS-level feminism takes over, is what's already occurring in the world. Destiny argues that while the intentions of SRS are good, they should exercise caution. 1:33:06 Vaush and Destiny discuss the tendency of liberals/left-leaning individuals to disagree with one another due to their "broader range of interests". 1:36:12 Creepshots subreddit, morality/legality discussion Vaush states: "we believe our morality supersedes legality", Destiny cautions Vaush against this position. The two discuss SRS's campaign against the creepshots subreddit and the line between morality and legality, with Destiny arguing that the subreddit's immorality was never clearly established and that SRS's method of organizing mob pressure without providing explicit objective justification was unethical regardless of the target. Vaush counters that once you accept rape culture as an ideological framework(or the lack of consent associated with a "creepshot"), the wrongness of creepshots follows logically. 1:49:36 Destiny discusses the "difference 1:49:36 Destiny discusses the "difference in scale" between SRS threatening to financially damage Reddit by contacting advertisers and simply "writing a letter" to the company. 1:56:02 Destiny argues that "big things" are what cause people to change their positions, while "intellectuals simply discussing things" tends to do little to "move the needle". He argues that such movements are more dependent on who serves as their "figurehead", which is risky because the movement's intellectual honesty becomes dependent on a single individual. 1:58:31 Vaush defends the pragmatic approach SRS employs to get the creepshots subreddit taken down, arguing that changing people's positions through civilized discussion would take far too long. Destiny counters that this sets a dangerous precedent, pointing to Nazism and genocide as examples of where similar reasoning could lead. Vaush responds that the Civil Rights Movement largely employs similar tactics. Destiny returns to his concern that the movement is entirely dependent on its "figurehead", which he considers dangerous. 1:59:46 Vaush argues that the subreddit does engage in intellectual discussions. Destiny disagrees, and the two discuss whether SRS sufficiently defends its positions. Vaush argues that Destiny should speak with feminist theorists if he wishes to explore the intellectual ramifications of SRS's actions, but maintains that what SRS did was good and that activists cannot afford to waste time debating every intricacy. Destiny responds by discussing the importance of decentralizing power. 2:06:21 Destiny argues that Vaush is morally wrong for attempting to herd people toward a cause for which he cannot provide an objective basis. Destiny draws a parallel to debating racist individuals, whose purported "objective realities" he would be able to challenge directly. 2:09:05 Vaush argues that rape culture will inevitably become accepted as a "tenet" of society and points to ideas such as "consent shouldn't be assumed". Destiny interrupts to ask whether these developments result from society recognizing rape culture or simply from humans naturally becoming more progressive. Vaush asks what the difference is. Destiny counters that Vaush is making "several jumps" and placing his prescription before presenting any logical argument morally justifying his position. 2:15:02 Destiny questions the justifiability of inciting a "mob" to get something shut down without a genuine logical basis for doing so. 2:18:00 Vaush asks Destiny what someone should do under the assumption that creepshots are bad and that they want the subreddit removed. Destiny does not directly answer the question, instead responding that he saw no "logical" discussion establishing the justifiability of SRS's "mob attack" against the creepshots subreddit. 2:20:44 Vaush argues that intellectual honesty is sometimes the cost of achieving an improved state for humanity. Destiny responds that this would make them no different from the ideological groups they oppose. The two continue debating the issue, with Destiny repeatedly drawing parallels to movements promoting non-progressive values, such as racism, that employ similar standards of intellectual honesty. Vaush maintains that this is simply the cost of achieving meaningful social change. 2:26:02 Vaush asserts that ending the suppression of oppressed groups is more important than guarding against victims of "mob mentality". Destiny responds with a hypothetical about debating a religious person and argues that Vaush is reasoning from a similar position of "faith". 2:32:58 Vaush points to the numerous intellectuals who participate in SRS. Destiny responds that even these individuals debate the existence and meaning of rape culture. Vaush retorts that any feminist who does not understand rape culture is not a true feminist. 2:35:31 Vaush commends Destiny for his previous pro-feminist statements. 2:40:35 Vaush states that while SRS will likely never accept Destiny, "real feminism" would be more than happy to accept him. 2:41:36 Vaush exits the call, and Destiny fields questions from his chatroom for the remainder of the video. 2:46:52 Destiny responds to a chatter asking how fantasizing about attractive women is similar to rape. Destiny explains that it relates to a perceived entitlement to sex with women.

03-30-2015 Conversations with Irishladdie AKA Vaush

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Conversations with Irishladdie AKA Vaush

On June 21, 2015 Vaush and Destiny held an hour and a half long discussion on Social Justice Warriors and a recent drama involving the subreddit Fat People Hate.

Debate Timestamps

0:00 Destiny greets Vaush, and questions why he's whispering. Vaush explains it's 4 am and he wishes to keep his voice down. Vaush eventually steps outside so he can speak up. 1:59 Vaush and Destiny discuss Gender Dysphoria and suicide rates among transgender individuals. 8:18 Vaush and Destiny deliberate over the phrase "Ebonics". Vaush being of the position that the academic phrase AAVE should be used, and Destiny countering that Educated African Americans would more likely be offended over the use of the phrase AAVE over Ebonics. 12:31 Destiny laments the argumentative habit of some feminist-inclined individuals to "harp" on one thing another individual gets wrong in the midst of several other correct statements. Vaush counters that this is not a "feminazi" thing, and likely just an inherent characteristic of individuals who tend to argue online. 13:56 Destiny draws a comparison to his anti-abortion stance, and individuals on "his side" who make poor arguments such as "you could be aborting the next Beethoven". He then likens this to pro-trans individuals attempting to make substantive arguments to better the "trans-cause", and being forced to contend with individuals who want transgender women in cis-female sports. Vaush then states that transgendered-women experience no advantage when participating in cis-female sports, as these individuals would have undergone extensive hormone therapy and treatment. Destiny counters that there is simply not enough medical evidence at this point in time to point to a lack of advantage in physiological prowess for transgender women after transition. 16:40 Vaush cedes that while he is not a medical professional, he has witnessed individuals who went from large men, to slender trans-women following hormone treatment. He goes on to argue that following enough treatment, a transgender women would become physiologically similar to a cis-women. Destiny states that he would accept this is possible, but argues once more that if a study were present on the subject he would have read it at this point. 17:52 Destiny states that the default assumption should be that transgender women are meaningfully physiologically different than cis-women. Vaush argues in favor of an opposite default assumption and points to the physical prowess of cis-women. Destiny states once more that the physical ability of strong male athletes is much more different than strong female athletes. 19:53 Vaush laments how inactive SRS has become, the two discuss the present state of the subreddit for some time. 21:37 Vaush pushes back against the idea that transgender women are meaningfully different from cisgender women in competitive sports, stating: "athletes gonna athlete". Destiny disagrees, and the two discuss, but states he has no desire to speak on the topic until he has read further. 29:28 Destiny pulls up an article discussing the physiological differences between males and females, before closing out of it. Destiny then searches for an article relating to transgender women vs man athletes. 30:38 Vaush begins to explain the concept of gender dysphoria before Destiny cuts him off arguing that society has created a "bunch of words" to define things people already know. 31:17 Vaush and Destiny discuss the merits of engaging in conversation. Destiny being of the opinion that debates provide a way to sharpen one's arguments and either reinforce or redefine a belief one has. Vaush replies that he doesn't argue with people as much anymore. 32:11 Vaush brings up the subreddit Fat People Hate, and laments how no discourse has occurred surrounding the topic. Destiny argues that this mirrors several of the talking points found in their discussion on shit reddit says or gamergate, and laments the tendency of individuals to create strawmans to argue against. 34:24 Destiny points to individuals that simply wanted to see things change in gaming journalism and were subsequently labled as misogynists due to the worst aspects of the movement. 36:19 Destiny argues that gamergate "perfectly encapsulates the worst parts of humanity" as both sides just started arguing against things nobody believes or supports. Vaush then asks why everything upvoted in KotakuinAction is about feminism being bullshit, Destiny counters that the direct contrast of this has occurred in the subreddit SRS. Vaush responds that SRS is an intentional "circlerjerk" acting in "hyperbole". Destiny retorts arguing that Vaush is engaging in a No true Scotsman fallacy. 38:43 Destiny points to SRS emailing lists of his sponsors stating he's a pedophile, and asks Vaush if he considers this to be a "big satire troll".

04-04-2017 Talking with my buddy Vaush AKA Irish Laddie about the rise of Trump and communism(?)

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Talking with my buddy Vaush AKA Irish Laddie about the rise of Trump and communism(?)

On April 4, 2017 Destiny held a roughly two and a half hour long discussion with Vaush regarding the rise of Trump and communism. The conversation starts with the two briefly touching on Destiny's recent debate with Jontron, and the rise of backlash as a result of Gamergate (which they both take credit for accurately predicting). The two then focus on Donald Trump , and the increase of "horrifying" political discourse spurned on by the president in the form of subreddits like The Donald .

To start, the two touch on the pragmatic methods of addressing the recent surge of fascism in the face of an otherwise corrupt political system. While they both agree that fascism tends to arise as a result of discontent among the working class of a society, the two disagree on the best methods of addressing the needs of the working class. Destiny being of the opinion that the needs of the working class must be pragmatically addressed through incremental change such as steadily "getting money out of politics" (i.e. removal of campaign finance reform), while Vaush takes the position that capitalism itself is the issue, and should be positioned as the primary focus of their discussion.

"You're an unreasonable person? In regards to this conversation yeah... I wanna do things to make America a better place. That's my goal as an American. I live here it's part of my country, I see people that are disproportionately impacted, I wouldn't wanna be in there position. I wouldn't wanna be born in fucking Chicago as a Black American that would fucking suck. So I wanna use, at the very least, my platform to leverage it as much as possible, to speak out against these issues, to get more people to believe in the things that I say. So that when 25% of them or whatever, go to the polls to vote, that at least they're... representing the viewpoints that I hope are being carried on through society and eventually see positive change as a result. I much rather that than, "you know the system is inherently fucked, we're just awaiting for it to all burn down, you know?"

— Destiny to Vaush

Throughout the call, Destiny routinely reasserts the prospect of the United States "decoupling" itself from capitalism to be highly unpragmatic, and Vaush would conversly respond that it is impossible to address the issues present with regards to the rise of fascism in the United States without at least acknowledging the present economic system and offering alternatives. When pressed on a realistic prescription towards making society more progressive and combatting fascistic entities, Vaush states that "racists and non-progressive people need to be made afraid again". Vaush would go on to point to political organizations like the Black Panther Party as potential inspirations.

This back and forth continues for about an hour until the call’s conclusion. During which time Vaush makes several arguments pointing towards an overall need for the United States to "pull away" from capitalism, and repeatedly asserts that meaningful class-based change would be impossible from within said economic system. Conversely, Destiny argues that nobody in the "real world" cares for these arguments, and that change is certainly possible within Capitalism.

Discussion Highlights

Collaboration between leftists and Liberals 29:01 Vaush states that a collaboration must take place between leftists and liberals, not between leftists and alt-righters. Vaush goes on to explain what he believes to be the origins of fascism, arguing that while it feeds upon the same systems as communism (alienation and discontent of the working-class) they both lead to very different results. Destiny responds in agreement, and asserts that the prescription should be addressing the issues of the working class. Vaush interrupts Destiny, and exclaims : "Capitalism! If we got rid of capitalism there would be no more fascism." Destiny responds that he is not qualified to address this argument this argument, and that such a statement is not worth addressing, stating capitalism will never be removed from the United States. Vaush responds with a hypothetical about society needing to regress 200 years, and Destiny expresses his exasperation in debating about theoretical societies that will likely never take place. Trump supporters too far gone? 49:05 Approximately halfway through the discussion, Vaush expresses his belief that Trump supporters are effectively "too far gone", and any attempts to "reach across the aisle" would be futile. Upon hearing this, Destiny declares their entire conversation up until this point to be a waste of time, and shifts the focus of the discussion towards this point. The two deliberate on this topic for some time: Vaush maintains that Trump supporters are irredeemably committed to anti-intellectualism, and Destiny asserts that this same level of anti-intellectualism is displayed by individuals on the left. Destiny goes on to explain that individuals on the right are espousing such "anti-intellectual" talking points due to a misplaced feeling of betrayal that should be addressed rather than ignored or put on the wayside. Destiny continues, stating that this presidency has displayed a valid test of the strength of the foundational systems of the United States (of which he has a great deal of faith in), and Vaush conversely argues this presidency demonstrates the system is flawed and "borne on the back of the oppressed". Is Vaush unreasonable? 2:03:02 Vaush asks Destiny if he believes himself to be an "unreasonable person". Destiny responds in the affirmative, and explains that he cares more for pragmatic-driven measures that ultimately drive people to the polls or steer people more towards his personal positions. Vaush responds that while he is not completely dissatisfied with capitalism, it must eventually come to an end. Vaush and capitalism 1:27:06 Destiny draws a comparison between talking with Vaush and talking with Anita Sarkeesian , asserting that just as Sarkeesian views all problems as being caused by the patriarchy, Vaush views all problems as being caused by capitalism.

Discussion Timestamps

0:00 Vaush joins the call, the two discuss Vaush's undergrad thesis and exchange pleasantries. 1:49 The two discuss Destiny's recent debate with Jontron. Destiny jokes he has become a full-on "sjw-cuck" now, and Vaush states he is very proud of Destiny. The two go on to discuss how they both accurately predicted gamer-gate backfiring. 3:06 The two discuss anti-gamergate content creator Thunderf00t , and the dichotomy he has stricken in raising a majority anti-left audience while himself being fairly left-leaning. 4:11 Vaush describes how he doesn't care for leftist "purity-testing" anymore, and claims he would accept even his ex-navy grandpa if he said "fuck trump". The two go on to discuss the subreddit The Donald , and the "horrifying" political discourse taking place there. 7:31 Destiny describes why he likes the concept of a "marketplace of ideas", especially as it relates to his prior debate with JonTron. 8:57 Vaush states that with Trump now in office and elements of fascism being more "apparent" in American society, it can now be more effectively debated. Destiny advises Vaush to temper such a statement, explaining his hypothesis that both sides of the aisle may secretly desire "totalitarian rule". 10:05 Vaush cautions Destiny against a free marketplace of ideas, and provides a quote from Hitler wherein the dictator explained that the only thing that could have stopped his movement would be for it to have been crushed in it's infancy. 10:44 Destiny asks Vaush: If the majority of the country wants to become racist, who are you to stop it?" Destiny furthers this point to explain that "whatever idea you believe in you have to make sure the other side believes it as well". 11:38 Destiny provides the punching of Richard Spencer as an example of a very poor means of establishing political discourse. Vaush disagrees, arguing one would have to put their "foot in the sand" eventually and stand for their beliefs. Destiny counters that Vaush is essentially advocating for Fascism, and the two discuss. 15:26 Vaush asks Destiny if he believes self defense is a legitimate excuse for violent behavior. Destiny responds in the affirmative, but cautions against punching someone "preaching on the street". Vaush responds: "it's all free speech until they get power". Destiny counters with a hypothetical about an individual finding justifications to shoot up a mosque due to a belief that Islam spreads hatred. Vaush beings by stating that Islam is a religion with nearly two billion adherents that have been subject to systematic oppression for quite some time, Destiny counters that the individuals Vaush would be debating do not believe in systematic oppression, and the two discuss the merits (or lack-thereof) of attempting to debate/win-over individuals on the right. 16:44 Vaush quotes MLK's "white moderate" passage. 20:09 Destiny points out that a war between "lefties" an "righties" would likely result in the right winning. 21:27 Destiny further empathizes the need to create arguments that make it so individuals "across the aisle" can be effectively reached. 22:21 Following a brief discussion on the rise of Nazi Germany as it relates to the rise of MAGA, Destiny cautions against such a comparison as Germans following WW1 were a disenfranchised group seeking a way to rise up by any means. Vaush disagrees with Destiny's historical framing, and the two discuss whether Germans after WW1 would be considered a disenfranchised group for some time. Upon Vaush claiming that the US enacted similar punitive measures towards Japan, Destiny calls into question Vaush's sociology major. Destiny would go on to claim that Germans at the time would have latched on to any movement at the time, given their disenfranchised status. 26:10 Vaush explains that what made the Nazi-party uniquely dangerous was it's ability to utilize the powers of the state, drawing a parallel to the MAGA movement and Trump. Destiny counters that one needs to address the source of a problem(e.g. with regards to black crime rates), and can't pick and choose where to drop it in this case. Vaush goes on to ask Destiny if he believes the rise of white-nationalism in the west to be a problem, Destiny answers in the affirmative. 29:01 Vaush states that a collaboration must take place between leftists and liberals, not between leftists and alt-righters. Vaush goes on to explain what he believes to be the origins of fascism, while it feeds upon the same systems as communism (alienation and discontent of the working-class) they both lead to very different results. Destiny responds in agreement, and that the prescription should be addressing the issues of the working class. Vaush interrupts Destiny, and exclaims : "Capitalism! If we got rid of capitalism there would be no more fascism." Destiny responds that he is not qualified to address that statement, and that such a statement is not worth addressing, stating capitalism will never be removed from the United States. Vaush responds with a hypothetical about society needing to regress 200 years, and Destiny expresses his exasperation in debating about theoretical societies that will likely never take place. 30:44 Destiny asks Vaush if he believes the US will get rid of capitalism in the next 50 years, Vaush answers no, and Destiny goes on to explain that "getting rid of capitalism" is not a real solution to any problem they are discussing. Vaush retorts "how will we get rid of these problems then?" and Destiny responds: "though the systems that are in place". Vaush responds, alluding to the fact that the system has been hijacked by individuals willing to adopt fascism, and Destiny is too distracted by something occurring in the game he's playing to immediately respond. 32:15 Vaush asks Destiny, given the current state of a corrupted political system, how would he go about practically addressing the systematic issues at hand? Destiny responds that while it's complicated, the first thing that needs to happen is "campaign finance reform" and getting money out of politics. Destiny explains that these politicians are backing companies that financially represent them, rather than the American people, arguing this destroys the systems intended to ensure politicians operate honestly. Destiny asserts this is the reason he pushed for Bernie Saunders. Vaush retorts that it is very difficult for him to continue this conversation, as Destiny is alluding to symptoms of capitalism without wanting to address capitalism itself. 36:55 Vaush points to the "people behind Trump" who pose a true threat to democracy, and that Trump will eventually patter out and retire. 37:43 Destiny asks Vaush what he believes needs to happen to put the United States on a more progressive track, and Vaush responds that "racists and people with other non-progressive values should be made afraid again". Vaush goes on to laude the black-panther party. 40:11 Destiny and Vaush debate whether a "subtly-racist" society is better than an overtly racist society. Destiny being of the position that a "subtly racist" society is an indication of a steadily more progressive leaning thought, while Vaush is of the position that more extreme measures ought to be taken in the face of blatant prejudice. Destiny argues that a society where extreme measures are taken (with a progressive bend or otherwise), can only lead to destructive outcomes like a civil war. 49:04 Vaush argues that society is presently facing another resurgence of fascism, and that this would be a poor time to "reach across the aisle". Destiny responds that the conversation up until was likely a waste of time, and whether or not Trump supporters are "too far gone" should have been the primary focus of their conversation. 51:33 Vaush asserts that Trump supporters are "too far gone" due to their commitment to intellectual dishonesty. Destiny proceeds to get derailed by an issue with his modded Minecraft playthrough and asks a chatter, Micspam, for assistance. 56:10 Vaush states that despite his status as a "left-radical" he, and individuals on his side, still exhibit a meaningful degree of intellectual honesty, unlike Trump supporters. Destiny counters that he has engaged with several "left-radical" individuals who exhibit the same degree of intellectual dishonesty as Trump supporters. Vaush agrees and points to his disgust for tankies. Destiny then inquires on Vuash's opinion on Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, pointing out that Hillary received much unfair criticism from the far-left. 58:12 Destiny attempts to recontextualize the conversation up until this point: Vaush claims you cannot reason with people on the right because they're committed to anti-intellectuality. Destiny argues that while this is true, the framing Vaush is tying to this conclusion is incorrect. Destiny explains that individuals on the right believe that pollsters, economists, and several "intellectuals" have betrayed them, and so they seek out other sources of "truth'. Destiny argues that while this plays out as a very anti-intellectual position in reality, when there are individuals on the left who play into this dishonesty (e.g. outlandish claims about global warming) it inevitably causes this "dishonest" sentiment on the right to build up. 1:00:04 Vaush states he's heard the argument that "these people think they're in the right too" before, and Destiny emphasizes the importance of establishing "what's going on" and remedying those problems. Destiny draws a comparison to working to identify a problem in a musical ensemble. Vaush questions how Destiny can maintain such a talking point with Trump in office, and Destiny argues that this presidency has acted as a valid test of the strength of the United States institutional systems, and Vaush argues the converse. 1:05:33 Vaush argues that Hillary was a proponent of "late stage capitalism", and was therefore a poor candidate. Destiny counters that capitalism can offer value to all people, and that he would push to get that value continually offered to all people. Vaush once again points to minorities damaged by capitalism, and the two deliberate on the ability of capitalism to help minority groups for some time. 1:07:46 Destiny argues it is difficult for one to make arguments in favor of capitalism when individuals like Stalin and Mao exist, while capitalism has conversely ushered in more prosperity in the world. Vaush replies that while this is true, capitalism has effectively served it's purpose in society and it's time to move on to the "next step" in communism. Vaush points to issues such as "jobs drying up" as a symptom of capitalism, and Destiny counters this problem would likely also be present in a communist system. 1:11:21 Vaush argues that people are feeling lonely every year as a result of capitalism. Destiny then asks Vaush if he believes no solution exists within the present system, and if society should just wait for a "violent revolution" to change. Vaush replies that a violent revolution will likely not take place and proclaims that the "right has won" and several regressive policies will likely be enacted. Destiny counters that Vaush has a "downer view" on everything and that the general trends will point back to more progressive policy (e.g. more progressive policy for women and black people). 1:17:39 Vaush argues that while a capitalist society with perfect "racial equality' could exist, one with perfect class equality would never come to fruition. Destiny counters that while classism sucks, the elimination of racism would be far superior to what the world presently abides by. Vaush goes on to explain the scarcity prevalent in capitalism, and how it's "too late for humanity". Destiny counters that individuals presently suffering under racism/prejudice do not care for these issues. 1:22:19 Vaush reiterates the need for pulling away from capitalism. Destiny reiterates that nobody in the "real world" cares for these arguments. 1:23:51 Vaush states that while Bernie Sanders is a good person, he would likely be unable to enact meaningful change through the office of the presidency. When asked why, Vaush states that positive institution change cannot come from a politician. Destiny argues that while he doesn't entirely disagree with this position, the president can certainly guide national discourse towards a responsible conversation. 1:27:06 Vaush asks Destiny if he believes him to be an "unreasonable person". Destiny responds in the affirmative, and explains that he cares more for pragmatic-driven measures that ultimately drive people to the polls or to steer people more towards his personal positions. Vaush responds that while he is not completely dissatisfied with capitalism, it must eventually come to an end. 1:31:05 Destiny and Vaush touch on Universal Basic Income, and whether economic prosperity is prevalent within Capitalism. 1:43:03 Destiny and Vaush discuss the evolution of technology and it's impacts on society, and whether capitalism can provide meaningful incentive for the wealthy to "build answers" to problems. 1:51:08 Destiny gives Vaush an assignment: If he can find an author or academic that truly believes in the positions Vaush is stating, he would be willing to have that individual on for a discussion. 1:53:58 Destiny predicts that when automated cars arrive, a big push for Universal Basic Income will take place. Vaush questions if being a liberal just means having an "unrelenting faith in the system". Destiny counters if once doesn't have faith in the system, the only alternative is revolution. 1:57:13 Vaush and Destiny discuss the sense of loneliness inherent with capitalism. Destin argues that signs of people dying from cancer or depression at increased rates are actually positive, as it is indicative of an increased human-lifespan. 2:03:02 Destiny draws a comparison to talking with Anita Sarkeesian when talking with Vaush. Asserting that similar to how Sarkeesian views all problems as being caused by the patriarchy, Vaush views all problems as being caused by capitalism. 2:06:55 Destiny states that the most pressing big picture problem facing the world is global warming. Vaush argues that he "just doesn't see" legitimate socialist societies destroying the environment. 2:10:41 Destiny and Vaush discuss what "capital" means in society. 2:14:44 Destiny and Vaush discuss the subreddit "Shit reddit says", their attempt to contact Destiny's sponsors, and his discussion with Jontron.

09-20-2017 Discussion with Irishladdie AKA Vaush

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Discussion with Irishladdie AKA Vaush

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01-26-2018 Political Violence - Debate with IrishLaddie AKA Vaush

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Political Violence - Debate with IrishLaddie AKA Vaush

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12-01-2019 Is Taxation Theft? ft. Exskillsme & Irishladdie AKA Vaush

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Is Taxation Theft? ft. Exskillsme & Irishladdie AKA Vaush

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03-22-2020 You have no policy solution - Debate with Vaush

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You have no policy solution - Debate with Vaush

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08-26-2020 Vaush vs Destiny Debate - Morality of Kyle Rittenhouse

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Vaush vs Destiny Debate - Morality of Kyle Rittenhouse

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02-09-2021 Vaush Calls Out Destiny For PhilosophyTube Tweets | DEBATE

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Vaush Calls Out Destiny For PhilosophyTube Tweets | DEBATE

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03-18-2021 Destiny And Vaush Hot Drop Into Chaotic Debate Panel

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Destiny And Vaush Hot Drop Into Chaotic Debate Panel

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06-11-2021 Destiny vs Vaush Debate Gets HEATED And ESCALATES Out Of Control...

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Destiny vs Vaush Debate Gets HEATED And ESCALATES Out Of Control...

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10-13-2021 Destiny Debates Vaush, Economics Professor And The Moderator (LIVE)

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Destiny Debates Vaush, Economics Professor And The Moderator (LIVE)

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10-30-2021 Destiny Debates Vaush On New Panel | Cops Vs Social Workers

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Destiny Debates Vaush On New Panel | Cops Vs Social Workers

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02-12-2022 Destiny Confronts Vaush (Irishladdie) on History of Sexual Harassment

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Destiny Confronts Vaush (Irishladdie) on History of Sexual Harassment

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04-06-2022 Destiny Reacts To Vaush Manifesto Post

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Destiny Reacts To Vaush Manifesto Post

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09-30-2023 Debating Vaush, Emma Vigeland And Ryan Grim At The White House

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Debating Vaush, Emma Vigeland And Ryan Grim At The White House

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10-04-2023 Infighting And Bridging Divides | Vaush, Emma Vigeland And Destiny Vidcon Panel

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Infighting And Bridging Divides | Vaush, Emma Vigeland And Destiny Vidcon Panel

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10-05-2023 Vaush Attacks Destiny's Community After Coalition Panel

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Vaush Attacks Destiny's Community After Coalition Panel

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02-09-2024 Vaush Gets Away w/ Wild Arguments In Israel Debate, Triggers Destiny

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Vaush Gets Away w/ Wild Arguments In Israel Debate, Triggers Destiny

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03-30-2025 Destiny Reacts To Vaush Calling Democrats Psyops...

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