Lav

Lea 'Lav'

Lea AKA LavLune is a singer, TikTok content creator, feminist and former OnlyFans content creator who spent some time as one of the most antagonistic orbiters to ever grace Destiny's stream.

On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas WIP

Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav

On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionality dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position.

While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation.

Debate Highlights(Destiny reacting to a vod of MrGirl and Lav)

0:30 Lav calls into MrGirl's show. 1:55 Lav tells MrGirl "The way you feel about Steven Crowder is how I feel about you." And that she feels dread looking at him. 9:06 MrGirl calmly tells Lav to shutup. 9:36 Lav accuses MrGirl of getting mad at Destiny for not taking a "deliberate stance" about him. MrGirl says he does not care about the reasons but does care about the lack of a stance, to which Lav accuses MrGirl of lying. 15:11 Lav describes how she "molds" her husband to take care of her, and makes the claim that MrGirl does the same with his girlfriend. Lav goes on to describe MrGirl as unintentionally "skeevy" in the way he goes about this molding. 20:35, when asked what she (Lav) would do if her partner was crying or facing emotional turmoil in another room, Lav replied that she would try to ignore her partner and later express her frustration with them once they've calmed down. 25:30, Lav accuses MrGirl of "over-indexing" boundaries because he is bad at establishing them. MrGirl counters that Lav does train people, and accuses her of wanting him to use emotional/physical withdrawal to "train" his girlfriend(which he describes as abusive). Lav then accuses MrGirl of using her as a punching bag to vent his frustrations about Destiny. 29:50 Lav joins the call. Destiny offers her some advice, telling her she must be "very chill" in order to challenge someone, particularly MrGirl, on their behavior. 33:31 Lav states she "would never date a man who cries". 37:50 Destiny expresses his frustration about not being able to follow along with what is going on in the conversation. 49:50 Destiny offers some critiques of MrGirl. He notices that MrGirl never asks clarifying questions to discern what his debate opponent is thinking. 54:50 MrGirl's accuses Lav of being abusive after she brings up his traumatic childhood. Lav responds that she only brought up MrGirl's mother because she believes he is subconsciously attaching opinions to Lav she doesn't truly believe. 58:09 Lav tells MrGirl he is coming off as very uncharitable and aggressive. MrGirl responds that she is doing the same. 1:06:38 Destiny agrees with a statement Lav made in the call, that MrGirl tends to go "really hard" when he sees someone show weakness in a conversation.

After watching the vod, Destiny decided to invite Lav onto his stream to offer her some debate advice. Soon after, MrGirl joined the call, and Destiny moderated a debate between the two. With Destiny's assistance, the two were able to clearly lay out their positions. Despite this, the debate still became quite heated, and both debaters maintained the same positions they entered the call with.

Debate Highlights(Destiny moderating a debate between MrGirl and Lav)

1:10:08 Lav joins the call, and Destiny asks her what the goal of the conversation she had with MrGirl was. 1:16:11 Lav points out that she noticed MrGirl's chat calling her a "demon" and questioned if his audience was composed of incels. 1:19:30 Lav claims that MrGirl positions himself to be some "all knowing god". 1:25:21 Lav tells Destiny what she "got cancelled" for, she goes on to describe how she took issue with a video saying "it's weird when a women feels connected to their vagina". 1:57:31 Shortly after MrGirl joins the call, the three agree to have a debate with Destiny moderating. 2:00:29 Lav asserts her position in the conversation was: When an individual feels themselves becoming emotionality dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. 2:01:56 MrGirl provides a counterargument to Lav's position: When an individual in a relationship creates emotional/physical distance as a result of their partner's actions, the partner may feel abandoned. 2:18:05 Destiny asks MrGirl if he thinks he could've done anything better in the conversation. MrGirl does not respond, and instead accuses Destiny of running defense for lav. 2:24:50 Lav states that the line between "being abusive" and "not being abusive" is intent. 2:30:57 Lav attempts to apologize for bringing up MrGirl's mother in their previous convo, Mrgirl is quick to cut Lav off and accuses her of changing the subject and being an abuser. 2:33:42 Lav tries to explain to MrGirl that they come from very similar background and are the "same person" in many ways, while Destiny begins to play the piano. For the next hour and a half MrGirl and Lav engage in a cycle of attempting to debate the aforementioned partner crying in another room scenario, and occasionally get sidetracked by Lav talking about her personal life or getting frustrated with MrGirl. This all occurs while Destiny fruitlessly tries to get the two to engage meaningfully, cut between him playing the piano. Nothing is accomplished in the conversation, and nobody moves from their prior positions.

Destiny reacts to a panel featuring Lav

On August 6, 2022, Chudlogic hosted a panel to discuss sex work and OnlyFans. Among the guests on this panel included Merrick Deville, Wickedsupreme, and Lav. Destiny had chosen to watch this panel because he was interested in Lav's perspective as an individual who quit creating OnlyFans content as a result of her interactions with MrGirl.

Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate

On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, suggesting he misunderstood the financial struggles of sex workers when comparing them to other professions like doctors. The discussion explored the societal implications of sex work, particularly in platforms like OnlyFans, touching on subjects such as the dehumanization of women, unrealistic beauty standards, and societal consumption of explicit content. They debated the role of personal responsibility, with Lav emphasizing the potential negative impacts of sex work on society, while Destiny argued that the issue lies more with societal engagement and overindulgence in technology than with sex work itself.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from the panel include: 1:40 Lav makes the claim that subscribing to an OnlyFans content creator's page is the equivalent to monetizing women's oppression. She goes on to say that women utilizing OnlyFans is a net negative for society as a whole. Destiny counters that women capitalizing on men's desires in such a way that allows them to earn a living is not necessarily a negative thing. 4:13 Lav states that sexual oppression is a big theme for women, a women's value is tied to their age( "once i'm thirty i'm fucking dead to this world"), and men don't have these issues. Destiny, noticing that Lav just shotgunned out three topics, decides to dissect each point individually. Destiny asks if it's possible for a women not to be sexually oppressed while still capitalizing on their sexuality, and highlights a parallel to men feeling useless at younger ages(men being valued for experience/money which comes with age). 6:54 Lav asserts that a man can never fully grasp the experiences of a women much like how a white man "can never fully grasp the experience of a black man". Destiny responds that the same can be said for women trying to grasp the experiences of a man. Lav then takes the conflicting position of being a feminist and gender abolitionist. 8:53 Destiny asks Lav: "If a women chooses to take pictures of herself, sell them online, and there are men who choose to purchase those images because they enjoy it, where is the oppression in that interaction?" To which Lav responds "when you add money to something, especially a body, you dehumanize it..." Destiny responds that this "dehumanization" is unavoidable and an unfortunate reality due to locality issues(i.e. it's easy to see someone as less human if they are online). 12:52 Lav makes the claim that "50-60% of men see themselves escalating porn, and the algorithm favors violent porn, most of sex is degradation or violence against women..." 16:17 Lav makes the argument that the "problem is not porn, it's the unregulation of porn... we should go back to a playboyesque thing with still-images... porn is out of control". Destiny responds that this issue is not directly a cause of porn, and more related to a societal issue with regards to individuals seeking the quickest "dopamine hits"(citing people obsessively browsing reddit or TikTok) through unfettered access to technology.

Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel

From left to right: REDACTED, Destiny, Lav, Jenavive, MrGirl, ChudLogic, and TafTaj on a panel to discuss sex work.

On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, REDACTED, Sneako, and MrGirl, to discuss several topics including OnlyFans, sex work, AI porn, and Dogwarts. Much like her prior appearances, Lav takes the position that sex work is a net-negative to society and should be heavily regulated. As there are multiple sex-workers(TafTaj and Jenavive) on the call, much contention arises. This conversation quickly becomes heated as multiple "shit-stirrers" are present in the call.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from this panel include: 31:30, MrGirl chooses to bring up Lav, stating that she advertises her OnlyFans by saying on streams that it harms her. Destiny is quick to point out that she deleted all but one post on her OnlyFans. 35:51, MrGirl says he banned Lav from his discord for sexualizing minors(she posted pictures of herself as a child and asked for "tributes"). 46:02, REDACTED and Lav join the call. Lav takes issue with MrGirl claiming she sexualized minors, and banning her from his discord. 1:28:19, Lav states that the sharing of nude images between partners is problematic(shortly after stating she is not sex-negative). 1:39:24 Destiny provides the example of Portugal, a country that decriminalized all porn, and saw the rates of sexual assaults fall. He goes on to say that no such study exists linking the increase in the consumption of porn to an increase in sexual assault, to which Lav responds: "look for it, it's there, I promise..." Destiny rebukes that he has "looked for it" and found the opposite to be true in every study(i.e. consumption of porn in fact reduces chances for sexual assault). 1:41:03, Lav states she is only acting emotionally because MrGirl is in the call, and has not taken any extreme positions. Destiny is quick to point out her earlier argument that couples should not take nudes of one other. Lav then denies ever taking this position, and accuses everyone in the call of lying. 1:53:32. Lav asserts that a "rape fantasy is fucking ridiculous", and that indviduals should refrain from engaging in such behavior as they are making a mockery out of victims. When questioned on this belief by multiple members of the panel, Lav asks "why would someone even have a kink like that?" 1:59:44, Lav says the patriarchy has made an example out of Jenavive(after Jenavive states she "enjoys being looked at" sexually). Others on the panel point out that Lav has repeatedly handwaved Jenavive's arguments. 2:02:25, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 2:09:16, Lav provides incite into why she thinks OnlyFans subscribers do not care about the models they subscribe to. She cites a personal story involving her stay at a hospital and her subscribers being irritated by a lack of content.

Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream

From left to right: Brittany, ChudLogic, REDACTED, Destiny, Lav, MrGirl, Erudite, and Stardust on a panel debating Brittany's levels system.

On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another(primarily between Brittany and Lav). The "panel" initially started as a one on one discussion between Destiny and Lav, wherein she had many negative things to say about Brittany Simon. The conversation quickly devolved into a shouting match as more orbiters elected to join the discord call, and known shit-stirrer REDACTED contributed to the chaos. During the conversation, Lav and MrGirl try to convince a very high Brittany that her method of operating her Patreon and the “levels" system she utilizes are harmful. However, the disparate ways in which MrGirl and Lav present their messages leads to conflict between the two. By the end of the conversation Lav agrees with Brittany that she is smart enough to know what she's doing, and is truthfully engaging in harm reduction(she likely states this to spite MrGirl).

Debate Highlights

‌Highlights from the panel include: 0:56 Lav calls Brittany Simon a very irritating person and a blatant narcissist. 7:30 Lav clarifies that when she says "sex work is bad" she really means "sex work is bad for me", and emphasizes that she isn't suggesting that women should quit sex work in society. 12:58 Lav describes herself as "very dogmatic". She adds that she asserts her answers as correct for any topic, even if she has limited knowledge about it. She goes on to describe her "unintentional" tendency to state her opinions as prescriptions/fact. 19:15 Lav accuses Destiny of being a terrible advocate for open relationships, citing dramas involving Chaeiry and REDACTED. 32:18 After stating her contentions with Open relationships Lav describes her "discord husband" whom she constantly sexually harasses. She goes on to say such flirting is within the boundaries of her relationship. 35:00 Lav says she's worried about how Brittany utilizes her platform, and states she may lead women to "being alone at 30" with the lifestyle she advocates for. She also describes Brittany as thinking of herself as the most enlightened person in the world, and thinks she may have Bipolar Disorder. She goes on to say that Brittany might be running a sex cult. Destiny takes issue with these accusations and is forced to defend Brittany. 42:18, Lav describes all the things about Brittany that disgust her: the way she propositions herself above the people she attempts to assist through her "levels" system, the paywall to her "mental health” content, and the sexual content she offers of herself. 1:01:03, Brittany enters the call(high on weed). Lav reiterates that the potentiality for harm(towards women) with sex work is too great. She also states that the harm towards men, parasocially, is also great. She asks Brittany what expertise she's basing her "levels" system off of, and accuses Brittany of basing the system off her mental illness. Lav goes on to say she would never "prescribe" anyone(despite saying she inadvertently prescribes solutions to people earlier). 1:10:25, MrGirl joins the call to assist Lav(MrGirl is not fond of Brittany). 1:22:00, MrGirl takes issue with Lav's approach at debating Brittany and the two argue for some time. Brittany meanwhile expresses confusion with Lav's hatred towards her, as she has never interacted with Lav before this call. 1:24:35, Mrgirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 1:37:15, Lav expresses her frustration at being forced to deal with MrGirl "training" her and Brittany acting like a child. The three argue for some time regarding Brittany's level system, and the way she operates her Patreon. 2:33:51, Lav and Brittany roleplay one of the "personal talks/journey through the levels" that Brittany offers on her Patreon. 2:44:29, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 3:22:37, Lav apologizes for her earlier behavior, concedes Brittany is "smart enough to know what she's doing", and thinks Brittany is actually engaging in harm reduction(she likely states all this to spite MrGirl).

REDACTED discusses a leaked recording of Lav trash talking Destiny

On August 12, 2022, REDACTED shed some light on a leaked recording involving Lav. This conversation occurred on ChudLogic's channel, and lasted around sixteen minutes. The conversation begins with a content creator in Chud's community, Kuihman, alleging that Lav lied about an individual stalking, calling the FBI on her, and posting a photo of her house on a private server. This all occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends.

REDACTED, Chud, and Kuihman go on to listen to a leaked call wherein Lav stated that Destiny wanted to suck her husband's cock, and that she would never sleep with him. In the call, Lav calls Destiny a "cheese-boy", elf, and troll-man. REDACTED says there are two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Discussion Highlights

0:56 Chud discusses why he is still on twitch. 5:38 Chud and REDACTED begin discussing Lav. 6:43 The creator of the video, Kuihman, alleges that Lav lied about a case where an individual was stalking her, and calling the FBI on her. Kuihman goes on to describe how the only thing that substantiated Lav's claim was her calling the FBI on this individual, and the individual posting a photo of her house on a private server. He qualifies that all this occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. 8:55 Kuihman describes how Lav got into a voice call after a conversation with Destiny and stated that he wanted to suck her husband's cock, and she would never sleep with Destiny. 11:30 Chudlogic plays the leaked call. 14:00 REDACTED describes two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel

Lav's dog of choice for Dogwarts

On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the covnersation for half an hour before he got bored. During the call Lav confronts Kuihman over some alleged discord harassment campaigns he and his friends had organized against her.

Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs(her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd.

Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips

From left to right: Destiny, KaiClips, and Lav debating pornography.

On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server.

In the discussion, Lav expresses her mixed feelings towards radical-feminism, asserting her disagreement with many of its tenets but agreeing with some. She emphasizes her lack of concern for transwomen's feelings, specifically mentioning she doesn't care if they don't want to be referred to as male. She also criticizes transwomen for discussing feminist issues related to female socialization. Destiny challenges Lav's rhetoric, warning against taking more "provocative" positions that may lead to social media backlash and a toxic community.

Discussing feminism, Lav identifies her main issue with radical-feminism as its perceived masculinization of women. She labels herself a cultural feminist, aiming for a society that emphasizes women's inherent qualities. Destiny argues that Lav's views might stem from a previously unexamined life, making her vulnerable to new abstract concepts. He uses her relationship with her appearance and her previous OnlyFans involvement to illustrate his point.

On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav suggests casual sex should be restricted to friends. Regarding sex-work, she criticizes the harmful content in porn and its accessibility to children. Lav believes women can't give informed consent in the current scope of sex work, but she'd accept it in a perfectly equal society.

Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue.

Debate Highlights, Destiny vs Lav

11:54 Lav states that she disagrees with a lot of radical-feminism. She goes on to say that unlike radical-feminists, she is against the patriarchy. 12:56 Lav asserts she does not care about optics when discussing feminism with a trans-women. She argues that she will not spare "male-feelings", and does not care if a transwomen does not wish to hear they are male. Destiny, noticing that Lav has made some fairly transphobic remarks, then attempts to bring Lav down from this position. 13:45 Destiny recommends to Lav that she refer to a transwomen's upbringing as "being socialized as a male" as opposed to "man vs women". 14:13 Lav says the first time she was catcalled was at 6 years old. Destiny responds with his understanding of this position, but qualifies that he simply wants Lav to dial back on her rhetoric. He warns against the social media and community consequences. 17:33 Destiny posits an example to Lav: Imagine if he and Chaeiry were in an argument, and another individual joins and sides with Chaeiry. If Destiny were to say this individual was only siding with Chaeiry because she is black, it would be the equivalent to Lav saying she's being mistreated for being the only biological women on a panel with transwomen. Destiny then expresses his understanding of Lav's enjoyment in arguing online, but tells her it's far more enjoyable to argue about ideas rather than putting out fires due to poor rhetoric. 27:39 Lav states her primary disagreement with radical-feminism is the masculinization of women. She goes on to describe herself as a cultural feminist, citing a desire to live in a society where the inherent(nature/nurture) qualities of women are emphasized. Destiny responds that Lav has likely lived(up until a few months ago) a relatively philosophically unexamined life. Lav immediately disagrees and goes on to describe how philosophically charged her life is, before Destiny cuts her off and finishes his initial thought. He responds that a person in her position may be extra susceptible to any new and abstract ideas they hear. 41:58 Destiny describes to Lav the concept of figuring out a fundamental position. The crux of Destiny's argument is that Lav is allowing "the engine around being a women" to be driven entirely by forces external to herself. 51:37 Lav talks about her relationship with her mother, how she became a "god" and she'd go to her mother whenever she had a question(i.e. if her brain was going to fall out). She goes on to describe how her mother calling her "evil" or a "liar" caused her to self abandon as a result. 1:04:13 Destiny asks Lav is she likes to be pretty, or be treated like a pretty person. Lav has trouble answering the question, and eventually Destiny decides to move on. 1:14:53 Destiny asks Lav where her ideas of masculine vs feminine roles come from. Lav responds it's the ability to "create life", and that men are more predisposed to allow others to take care of "that life". Destiny then asks Lav what she thinks of a women who wants to be an engineer and have kids. Lav responds it's fine, but not the norm. 1:17:10 Lav pokes fun at transwomen, stating there are some men who really want to be mothers. Destiny then asks Lav to dial back on the transphobia. 1:18:44 Lav says women are more important than men, but acknowledges they need one another. 1:20:50 Destiny asks Lav how she views sexual interactions between a man and a women, he inquires whether Lav thinks one side is more powerful than the other in the interaction. Lav responds that due to the absence of good maternal relationships with men's mothers, and porn, a lot of sex feels like it's being done to women. She goes on to point out inherent physical differences between the two sexes, stating "one can kill the other with their bare hands". Destiny asks Lav what prescriptions she could give to address this dynamic 1:24:13 Lav says she does not believe in casual sex(with strangers), however she believes people should be having more sex with their friends. 1:31:00 Destiny begins questioning Lav on her sex-work positions. Lav discusses her ideas about an OnlyFans driven towards "being an older sister" to women who are interested in becoming more sex-positive. 1:50:42 Destiny provides the example of sweatshops in China, and segues it into an example of the morality of sex-work in modern day society. 1:55:11 Lav states that if women were abusing men at the same rate, she would not have a problem with BDSM. 2:02:50 Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with.

During the same stream, Kai Clips joins the call to debate pornography with Lav. While both oppose pornographic content, Kai feels Lav doesn't articulate her stance well. The primary distinction is that Lav thinks pornographic content could exist in a scenario where parties give perfect consent, but Kai believes it shouldn't exist at all.

Debate Highlights, Lav vs KaiClips

2:22:37 KaiClips enters the call. Kai utilizes a baby filter to avoid any sexualization from Lav. He goes on to call Lav a succubus. He accuses Lav of making the argument against porn in the least convincing and most irrational way. 2:25:27 Kai describes his position, stating pornography is harmful both secularly and morally. He points to the pornography industry normalizing harmful acts, and the ability to consume pornography. He goes on to say that Lav did initially make these arguments, but qualified that women just need to give more consent, and run porn companies. 2:28:00 Kai elaborates, he does not care for the consent of parties involved in the creation of porn, and finds the depiction of content such as rape and incest to be harmful. Lav is unsure how this conflicts with her previous points. 2:29:38 Destiny attempts to clarify the difference in Lav and Kai's positions. Kai believing porn can exist in no form, while Lav believes it can. The two then debate for some time the feasibility of banning all porn. Kai believes pornography should be labled a public health crisis, while Lav attempts to convey to Kai such argument are futile. 2:39:24 Lav points out that most porn is not abusive to women in the traditional sense. 2:42:51 Lav says it's natural for people to want to view porn, even at a young age. Kai laughs this point off and states younger individuals can just ask their parents for the "birds and the bees" talk. 2:47:29 Kai claims that due to her current lifestyle, Lav is less content than he is. He highlights how she frequently mentions wanting to leave the internet but continues to stay online. 2:52:43 Kai asserts that porn cannot be used for good, and Lav takes issue. Later on Kai states there is no evidence to support the claim "it is healthy to masturbate", Lav also takes issue with this point. 2:57:54 Kai says he has Lav's camera covered, an Destiny attempts to clarify the two debaters points. 3:30:51 Lav describes the relationship between prostitutes and disabled individuals. 3:34:08 Kai starts to leave the call, but Destiny stops him and asks if he truly believes his previously stated positions on sex. The two debate for some time.

Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny

On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist. Destiny, through a good faith interpretation of Lav's position and some meaningful dialogue was able to move Lav towards a less extreme position.

Debate Highlights

2:31 Lav states that no individual has an internal experience of gender. Destiny disagrees, and the two discuss. Lav describes the people that experience some "incongruousness" with their gender to be mentally ill, and suggests secular conversion therapy for these individuals. 6:46 Destiny asserts that a successful conversion therapy method for Transgender individual would have been found by now if it existed. 9:14 Lav expresses her concerns with giving children HRT. She however understands the need for transgender women receiving HRT before puberty can help them integrate into society and reduce the number of suicides within this demographic. 15:03 The two discuss MrGirl's YouTube ban. 17:18 Lav says she is unsure what would convince her nonbinary people exist, and is unsure if an internal experience of gender exists. Destiny goes on to describe the "feelings" of being in tune with one's gender, and what pushes people towards becoming nonbinary. 31:24 Destiny describes the differences between the female and male experiences. The two discuss these differences for some time. 45:11 Lav concedes that there might actually be an experience of gender, but still had trouble grasping the nonbinary experience. She caveates that the the people she had been hearing these experiences from are just "retarded" and unable to adequately convey their position.

Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry

On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav and Zherka. Chaeiry eventually joined the call to discuss her annoyance with Lav. The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. Because Chaeiry was reviewing them, Lav made her vods private. Later, she shares that her experience in MrGirl's community made her strongly against sex work, and she expresses concern about the backlash from changing her stance. Destiny tells her that it's okay for her to change her views occasionally but advises her to avoid making strong statements throughout the process. Lav takes issue with this accusation, and the two debate for some time. Zherka eventually joins the conversation, sparking a debate about the femininity of men and what women genuinely seek in men.

Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote). Chaeiry's primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals.

Debate Highlights

1:43 Lav discusses the Patreon she started. She discusses how she still provides lewd images of herself, yet is still antiporn. 4:36 Lav discusses her falling out with Chaeiry. She discusses her issues with Chaeiry banning her from her chat, reacting to her content, and accesses Chaeiry of "farming" people against her. 8:44 Lav throws her cat. 19:33 Lav discusses joining MrGirl's discord, the friends she made, and becoming engrossed in his community which lead her to becoming anti-sexwork. Destiny responds that Lav is in a "transitionary" period in her life right now, and will naturally have trouble balancing what makes the most sense in her life philosophically and personally. 24:29 Destiny tells Lav it's okay for her to change her mind frequently, she should just avoid making strong statements along the way. Destiny points to inflammatory statements she made in conversations with sex workers. 28:39 Destiny and Lav debate whether or not the content she is providing on Patreon is "lewd" or "sexwork". 36:31 Lav says she likes people seeing her naked. The two then rehash a previous conversation on what it feels like to be a women vs what it feels like to be human. 42:37 Jon Zherka joins the call. He later discusses the "femininity" of the moon, goku, and what women truly look for in men. 53:58 Lav describes Destiny as being catnip for mentally ill women. 1:05:15 Lav states transracialism is just as valid as transgenderism. 1:31:17 Lav disconnects from the call. 1:41:35 The video skips to later in the day, when Chaeiry is speaking with Destiny. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav calling herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote.

Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry

MrGirl adjusting his pants mid-conversation with Chaeiry

On October 16, 2022, Destiny and a panel of orbiters have a discussion on some drama involving Chaeiry and Mrgirl, as well as a "nuke" Lav wanted to drop on Hasan. Chaeiry had thought MrGirl had intentionally lifted his shirt to flash his stomach/lower body, and tweeted out a #metoo style tweet alongside Stardust with regards to it. Chaeiry seeing the backlash towards her accusations, decided to speak with Destiny to get some clarification as to where she messed up. The two talks for a few minutes, and after some further discussion(and some rather aggressive questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that to assume any maliciousness form MrGirl in this instance would be unreasonable.

The Panel hosted on Destiny's stream to discuss the MrGirl allegations(among several other topics). From left to right: Destiny, Zherka, Lav, Aba, Ahrelevant, Darius, Lycan.

Later on in the day, Dan joins the call followed by Lav, Aba, and Zherka. Lav brags about "being right" about Chaeiry's character, mentioning her toxicity and alleged mental illness, and defends MrGirl quite vehemently. Destiny takes issue with the harshness of Lav's criticisms, and the two discuss for some time. Throughout the conversation Lav derides Chaiery's character,insults her, and accuses her of betraying MrGirl's friendship and trust. The conversation goes on for about twenty minutes before the panel discusses sex work. Noticing a lull in the topics, Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy, and her heavy-handedness during debates. This conversation quickly gets derailed as Darius enters the call to shout at Lav.

The conversation becomes even more personal when Aba expresses his disdaine for Lav, calling her a version of Sneako with less charisma. He goes on to point to Lav's ability to take strong moral stances on topics she has no prior knowledge on, Lav takes issue with this and the two(along with Ahrel) discuss for some time. Shortly after this conversation, Lav alludes to a "nuke" on Hasan. Destiny stops her from dropping the nuke, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. Eventually Chaeiry joins the call to confront Lav, and the two argue for some time. MrGirl enters the call shortly after Chaeiry, and recreates the pose that was clipped. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible(no pubes to be seen).

Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. Eventually Chaeiry agrees that MrGirl's lower back, and not his butt was shown. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. Naturally, the conversation shifts focus back to Lav(after she accuses Chaiery of lying) and Destiny is forced to explain to her what a lie is. While in the middle of defining what a lie is, Lav interrupts Destiny, he responds by calling her a "dumb bitch". Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. Destiny snaps once more, saying this whole situation is a nothing burger that nobody will remember, and that MrGirl should probably be going much harder on Chaeiry as a result of her actions. MrGirl eventually leaves, and the panel members then turn their attention to Lav and criticize her for treating Chaiery poorly during the discussion. Lav and Chaiery continue to argue about whether Chaiery lied, and in the end, Lav angrily exits the call.

Debate Highlights

1:07 Destiny and Chaeiry discuss the allegation Chaeiry levied against MrGirl. Chaeiry shows Destiny the clip wherein she claims MrGirl "flashed his pubes". After watching the clip, Destiny isn't sure what Chaeiry expects him to conclude and doubts that MrGirl intentionally harassed her based on the footage. After some further discussion(and some rather aggressive questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that to assume any maliciousness form MrGirl in this instance would be unreasonable. 15:12 The video skips to later in the day when Dan Joins the call, and Destiny explains the drama. 17:34 The video skips to later in the day when Lav joins the call alongside Aba and Zherka. Lav brags about being correct about Chaiery's character. Destiny takes issue with this accusation and the two discuss. 22:01 Lav claims MrGirl has a "wound", and is very cautious around women. Destiny responds that MrGirl is not, and points to conversations where he makes women quite uncomfortable. Lav then accuses Chaiery of lying for attention. 32:25 The panel discusses sex work, Lav's unban from MrGirl's discord, and race. 37:39 Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy. Lav responds she does not have a position worked out yet and is still developing one. Ahrelevant then asks why Lav takes such a heavy handed approach when criticizing people during these debates. 46:18 Lav discusses a sextoy review she will offer on her Patreon as educational content for women. Ahrelevant acknowledges this, but points to other lewd images she offers on her Patreon and Twitter that are not explicitly educational. Lav responds that she believes those images are neutral, and she receives sexaul gratificaiton from uploading them. 51:43 Darius joins the call and screams at Lav for a few minutes. 54:58 Aba speaks on his disdain for Lav. He describes Lav as a version of Sneako with less charisma. Lav takes issue with this, and she debates Abaa and Ahrel for some time. 1:13:21 Lav alludes to a Hasan "nuke" she wishes to drop. Destiny stops her before she can, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. 1:14:32 Chaeiry joins the call. She states Lav is as informed on her friendship with MrGirl as she is on the sex industry. The two debate for some time over the allegations. 1:22:09 MrGirl joins the call, and recreates the pose that was clipped. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible. Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. 1:38:56 Lav questions why none of the men in the call are confronting a women making false allegations. To which Destiny responds that Lav is a MrGirl simp, and hates Chaiery. 2:05:49 Destiny explains to Lav what a lie is, and calls Lav a dumb bitch when she interrupts him. Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. 2:09:58 Destiny says Chaeiry can make as many twitlongers as she wants about himself, nothing will come of it. He calls this whole situation a "nothing-burger" and says nobody will remember it. 2:16:54 MrGirl says this will be his final public appearance with Chaiery, and will no longer appear on streams with her again. He leaves shortly after stating this. 2:27:06 After several members on the panel point to Lav's poor treatment of CHaiery during the discussion(and many insults are thrown at CHaiery by Lav) she rage quits the panel.

Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams AKA Destiny takes off the "kids gloves" and yells at Lav

On October 23, 2022, Destiny watches several clip of Lav speaking about him on other streams. . During the clips, Lav makes the following statements that Destiny takes issue with:

• She states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive. Especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people.
• She agrees with MrGirl's claim that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him. Destiny again, expresses his frustration with watching a 24 year old, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationship.
• She maintains that Chaeiry and Stardust were purposely malicious in their attempted cancellation of MrGirl, and accuses Destiny of not coming to MrGirl's aid. Destiny responds that the overwhelming majority of online spaces were coming out against Chaiery and Stardust, and found it unnecessary to add on to the criticism they were receiving as a result of the accusation.

Eventually, Lav joins the stream to confront Destiny. Lav claims she never "talked shit" about Destiny on other streams, and accuses Destiny of "emboldening" his community against her and breeding misogyny. She also maintains that Destiny's audience has many groypers in it harassing her. Destiny responds that he polices against misogyny heavily in his community, and points out that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms. He clarifies that this is is likely where the harassment she receives is coming from. The two debate for some time, regarding the perceived Misogyny in Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit), Lav's characterization of Destiny on other streams, and Lav's behavior in debates.

Throughout their conversation, Destiny attempts to make clear to Lav that her on-stream issues do not stem from her unfamiliarity with debate spheres. Instead they stem from her habit of belittling other people who hold differing views from her, and then changing her mind on these views the next day. Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic. And when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. The conversation gets quite emotional with Lav even sobbing through her arguments at one point. Lav eventually apologizes and says she was wrong, and that she does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists. |}

Debate Highlights

1:16 Destiny reacts to a conversation between MrGirl and Lav. Lav states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive. Especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people. 2:07 MrGirl claims that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him, and Lav agrees. Destiny pauses the video, and expresses his frustration with watching a 24 year old, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationships. He suggests that Lav come back to him in three weeks once she has developed an entirely new life-philosophy again. 3:02 The video skips to later in the day where Destiny reacts to a conversation between Lav, Erudite, and Brittany. Lav says she's like Holden Caulfield from Catcher in the Rye. Destiny pauses the video and states that no individual should want to be like Holden, and implies that Lav missed the point of the story if that was her takeaway. This was all in reference to Lav calling Chaiery a "phony", and her current disdain for her. 5:29 Lav, Erudite and Brittany debate for some time over the intentionality of Chaiery and Stardust attempting to cancel MrGirl. Lav believes the two(primarily Chaiery) were being malicious in their accusation, while Brittany and Lav felt they were genuinely uncomfortable. 10:15 Lav states that nobody came to MrGirl's aid(even Destiny), during his attempted cancellation. Destiny takes issue with this, points out that the attempted cancellation was absurd to begin with. He points to seeing many parts of his community(from his chatroom to subreddit) already criticizing Chaiery and Stardust, and reasoned that putting his "thumb on the scale" would be unnecessary. 16:12 Stardust joins the call, chats for a minute about seeking closure with MrGirl, then leaves. 22:17 Lav joins the call. Destiny accuses Lav of characterizing him as a moron. 25:13 Lav defends her position that Destiny's audience has many groypers in it. Destiny responds that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms, and this is likely where the harassment is coming from. 28:08 Lav responds that the actions of Destiny's audience are not necessarily his fault. Destiny then points out that Lav has stated on other platforms that Destiny having Groypers in his community has resulted in her getting hate, and compares that to her coming on stream right now to say that him having Groypers in his audience is morally neutral. 31:59 Destiny, in an exasperated voice, says "Don't talk to me like that, take that back..." when Lav tells him to "shut the fuck up" 33:17 Lav accuses Destiny of not paying attention to the conversation and attempting to pander to his audience. 34:24 Destiny attempts to list his issues with Lav but gets interrupted. 36:24 The two debate further about the perceived misogyny in Destiny's community. 37:47 Destiny asserts that Lav is not using a women's voice, but a manipulator's voice when she gets caught "doing some dumb shit" in a conversation. 39:28 Lav accuses Destiny of not empathizing with her position because he wants to protect his community. Destiny disagrees with this, and points to the amount of backlash he has received from his community as a result of him being good faith with Lav. 44:51 Lav begins to cry, and later concedes that she was being uncharitable to Destiny on other streams. 47:50 Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic. And when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. 50:28 Destiny asks Lav why she would use one-off most negative comments from his community to paint a brush on his entire audience. 54:16 Lav states she was wrong, and does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists. 1:04:25 The two discuss about presenting relationship problems to other people. 1:08:59 Lav begins sobbing. Destiny throws up a quick 900.

Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other for several hours WIP

On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream. The "prelude" to the civil war, involved Brittany and Destiny discussing the "real-world" impact of streamers, and the potentiality for certain orbiters(i.e MrGirl and Lav) to betray Destiny.

Prelude Highlights

2:24 Brittany asks Destiny what his goal is as a content creator. She later discusses her levels system, and what "being serious" as a content creator means with regards to real world impact. 6:59 Brittany discusses how she has trouble respecting MrGirl being upset with Destiny's lack of a response to "Chaeiry's mistaken accusation", citing his tendency to "shit talk" other individuals without regard for the implications. Destiny points out that MrGirl never levies fake sexaul assault allegations as Chaiery did. 8:55 Brittany compares MrGirl to Ethan from H3H3. 11:55 Brittany questions why Destiny struggles to understand Lav's position about being anti-sexwork while doing sexwork. Destiny responds that Lav's stance was incomprehensible, and that despite being intelligent, she is too aggressive in her approach during debates. Destiny points out that he didn't start being mean towards Lav until she started being aggressive towards him on other platforms. 14:47 Destiny compares orbiters to a Denny's steak. Discussing how he temperes his expectations towards orbiters that are likely to betray him in the future. 15:28 Destiny discusses how he would be surprised if Brittany ended up betraying him in the future(she did). He later says he can't imagine his relationship with MrGirl becoming tumultuous(it did). 15:45 Destiny "stakes out" a risky position, asserting that even amidst their current disagreements about community management, he and MrGirl will always maintain a good relationship and would never backstab him(things ultimately did not turn out okay between them). 20:48 Dan joins the call. 22:19 Brittany predicts that her friendship with Destiny will be one of the smoothest and best he's ever had, and they'll be friends for 30 years(they were not). She also thinks they'll never have a disagreement(they did). 31:29 Destiny talks about why he treats certain orbiters with "kids gloves". 34:15 Destiny discusses why he doesn't debate Brittany too much over her "levels" system. He later discusses what people mean when they have a "diverse" friend-group, and the benefits of understanding opposing views. 45:39 Lav joins the call following a discussion of Destiny's stream being a safe space for "unique" individuals. Lav states she wants to apologize for her behavior on a previous stream, and for mischaracterizing Destiny's audience. 50:25 Destiny discusses hooking up with Chaiery, and the drama that followed. 51:34 Chaiery joins the call, calls Destiny stupid, then leaves. 55:37 Dan describes why the current iteration of orbiters gets so much hate, citing their tendency to be "snakey". 1:01:26 Brittany and Lav debate with Dan regarding their trustworthiness.

Aba eventually joins the call, and the Orbiter Civil War officially kicks off. The primary contention starts between Aba and Lav. Aba claimed most discussions with Lav are pointless, as she will always fall back on being "young and naive" whenever she's proven wrong in a discussion. Destiny tries to moderate the discussion between the two, as he sees no issue in Lav's ignorance as long as she eventually admits fault. Each orbiter(outside of Brittany), seemingly had a "problem":

• Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer.
• Chaiery has a problem regarding the fallout of her failed cancellation of MrGirl and animosity towards Lav.
• Dan wants to stir up drama.
• Lav has a problem with Destiny's community attitude towards her, nobody taking her seriously, and a general animosity toward Chaiery.
• MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit and it's moderation). He feels the subreddit is part of a system of discrediting other orbiters, and making them look bad.
• Stardust has issues with her and MrGirl's friendship deteriorating as a result of MrGirl's attempted cancellation.

Destiny first addresses the issues with Lav. Lav accuses Destiny of tarnishing her reputation by labeling her as either gaslighting or being young and naive, which leads the subreddit to echo this sentiment. Destiny responds, asserting that his intention is not to discredit her but to provide an explanation for the seemingly contradictory and highly irrational nature of some of her statements. He clarifies his stance on Lav’s behavior, describing it as manipulative, and he details his reasons for perceiving some of her actions as gaslighting.

Debate Highlights

5:46 Aba asks Destiny what the point of having discussions with a 24 year old who doesn't know what she's talking about. Destiny responds he sees shards of himself in these individuals. Destiny elaborates that he only gets upset when these individuals make aggressive remarks(i.e. calling him badfaith) against his character. 7:56 Destiny expresses frustration with his community claiming he is too charitable towards Lav, and Lav saying he's not being charitable enough. Aba and Destiny later come to the conclusion that Lav is partially feigning ignorance on some topics to escape accountability for her claims. 11:15 Lav rejoins the call. Destiny asks Aba what he thinks about Sneako, and claims Sneako does worse than Lav with regards to engaging in debate and taking responsibility for their claims. 15:34 Aba and Lav debate. Aba elaborates why she feels Lav acts like a "useless retard" in her discussions, citing her taking strong positions on topics and falling back on being "young and learning" when proven wrong. Lav responds if Aba would prefer she just never own up to her mistakes, to which Aba counters he'd rather she never have the conversations to begin with. 17:27 MrGirl joins the call and attempts to defend Lav. 23:39 Chaiery joins the call, Aba leaves. 24:49 Lav claims she's been forced to acknowledge more of her mistakes than any other individual in the orbit, Destiny tells her to stop the hyperbole. 30:39 Brittany asks who everyone in the call trusts the most. Everyone picks Destiny, except for Lav who picks MrGirl followed by Destiny. Destiny says he trusts Dan the most. 34:17 Destiny summarizes everyone in the call's problem with one another. Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer. Chaiery has a problem with regards to her false allegation towards MrGirl and animosity towards Lav. Dan wants to stir up drama. Lav has a problem with Destiny's community,not being taken serious by anybody, and animosity toward Chaiery. MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit). Stardust has issues with her and MrGirl's friendship deteriorating. 36:39 Lav takes issues with Destiny's characterization of "her problem", and says it's similar to MrGirl's "problem". MrGirl chimes in, and points to his issues towards moderation on the subreddit. 38:13 Lav points out that Destiny asked her to be more careful about her implications of him, yet Destiny is free to "shit talk" her and let his audience deride her. She points to Destiny accusing her of being young dumb and naive, and the entire subreddit parotting that point. Destiny responds that he is not descrediting her when she makes the claims, but a way of explaining why some of the things she says are so contradictory/ultra irrational. Destiny makes clear as to why she finds some of Lav's behavior to be manipulative, and elaborates why she found some of her actions to seem like gaslighting.

Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream WIP

On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.

Notable Clips, videos, logs, and tweets WIP

Lav

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