Hasan and Destiny Break Up Over Kamala Misinformation: Difference between revisions
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Throughout the conversation, Destiny positied a myriad of hypotheticals to Hasan pertaining to whether the DA would be justified in stepping in to enforce their authority in scenarios where other institutions failed to do so, especially with regards to truancy and "state-violence". Hasan's response to these hypotheticals would more often than not be some variation of asserting the DA should do nothing, asserting that locking up mothers of truants is a poorer outcome than students failing to go to school, and arguing that other departments could handle the hypothetical issue presented without the use of state-violence(e.g. jailing individuals). To each of these rebuttals by Hasan, Destiny maintained that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system, and further lessens the likelihood they will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Destiny further argues that the government utilizes state-violence frequently to get people to act in the best interest of the state, and questions why Hasan has undertaken a "dumb libertarian mindset" with regards to personal freedom with regards to truancy. | Throughout the conversation, Destiny positied a myriad of hypotheticals to Hasan pertaining to whether the DA would be justified in stepping in to enforce their authority in scenarios where other institutions failed to do so, especially with regards to truancy and "state-violence". Hasan's response to these hypotheticals would more often than not be some variation of asserting the DA should do nothing, asserting that locking up mothers of truants is a poorer outcome than students failing to go to school, and arguing that other departments could handle the hypothetical issue presented without the use of state-violence(e.g. jailing individuals). To each of these rebuttals by Hasan, Destiny maintained that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system, and further lessens the likelihood they will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Destiny further argues that the government utilizes state-violence frequently to get people to act in the best interest of the state, and questions why Hasan has undertaken a "dumb libertarian mindset" with regards to personal freedom with regards to truancy. | ||
The | The exact scenarios Destiny and Hasan deliberated on with regards to state-violence are presented in the table below: | ||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | {| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | ||
!Timestamp!! | !Timestamp!!Scenario/hypothetical!! Hasan's response | ||
|- | |- | ||
|- | |||
|[https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=3892 1:04:52] | |||
| Destiny asks Hasan who he believes should be making kids to go to school. ||Hasan responds that governments should use positive influences(e.g. better classrooms, basketball programs) to ensure kids stay in school. Destiny continues the hypothetical, and asks Hasan what should be done if the children continue to fail to go to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny has placed him in an "unrealistic corner", and reiterates his point that well-funded schools tend to see better children attendance rates. | |||
|- | |||
|[https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4051 1:07:31] | |||
| Destiny restates his question regarding "who should make kids go to school", and if the state should force kids to go to school if they have lazy parents. || Hasan retorts that lazy parents should not have to force their kids to go to school in this "ridiculously created, hypothetical strawman." | |||
|- | |||
|[https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4347 1:12:27] | |||
|Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction) || Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction. Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle these issues. | |||
|- | |||
|[https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4573 1:16:13] | |||
| Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him. ||Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood these individuals will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect. | |||
|- | |||
|[https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4780 1:19:40] | |||
| If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids?|| Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4130 1:08:50] Destiny questions why Hasan believes the state should enforce violence on an issue that would improve the outcomes on all of society(vaccines), why is it so ridiculous to think the state should also be invested and making sure that kids actually show up at school. Hasan retorts that children failing to get vaccinated is infinitely more harmful than children failing to show up to school, and criticizes Destiny for creating a "ridiculous hypothetical". Destiny responds that the "ridiculous hypothetical" Hasan is referring to is "literally the hypothetical that Kamala Harris advocated for working". After further deliberation, Hasan ultimately maintains his prior conclusion that the state should not force "lazy parents" to send their children to schools, and continues to critique Destiny's "ridiculous hypothetical". | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4130 1:08:50] Destiny questions why Hasan believes the state should enforce violence on an issue that would improve the outcomes on all of society(vaccines), why is it so ridiculous to think the state should also be invested and making sure that kids actually show up at school. Hasan retorts that children failing to get vaccinated is infinitely more harmful than children failing to show up to school, and criticizes Destiny for creating a "ridiculous hypothetical". Destiny responds that the "ridiculous hypothetical" Hasan is referring to is "literally the hypothetical that Kamala Harris advocated for working". After further deliberation, Hasan ultimately maintains his prior conclusion that the state should not force "lazy parents" to send their children to schools, and continues to critique Destiny's "ridiculous hypothetical". | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4252 1:10:52] Destiny explains that his general thoughts on the manner is that the state has a vested interest in child, and one of the best ways to break the cycles of poverty is education, which would mean the state should try to ensure more children get to school, even if it requires state violence. Hasan sarcastically suggests that the DA should be involved in every manner in this regard, and sarcastically suggests that the DA should continue to lock up mothers of truants. Hasan reiterates that the main concern should be funding these schools, Destiny responds that Harris can't do anything in that regard, to which Hasan maintains Harris should not do anything to alleviate this issue. | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4252 1:10:52] Destiny explains that his general thoughts on the manner is that the state has a vested interest in child, and one of the best ways to break the cycles of poverty is education, which would mean the state should try to ensure more children get to school, even if it requires state violence. Hasan sarcastically suggests that the DA should be involved in every manner in this regard, and sarcastically suggests that the DA should continue to lock up mothers of truants. Hasan reiterates that the main concern should be funding these schools, Destiny responds that Harris can't do anything in that regard, to which Hasan maintains Harris should not do anything to alleviate this issue. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4347 1:12:27] Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4347 1:12:27] Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction). Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4525 1:15:25] Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle certain issues. Destiny responds that the DA may be forced to step in when other institutions are failing to accomplish certain goals. | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4525 1:15:25] Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle certain issues. Destiny responds that the DA may be forced to step in when other institutions are failing to accomplish certain goals. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4573 | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4573 1:16:13] Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him. Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood they will resort to a live of criminality. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4646 1:17:26] Hasan argues that lazy parents not sending their children to schools is not a real problem. Destiny then asks Hasan what the alternative explanations to the parent not contacting the school are. Hasan refuses to answer the question, and posits a question of his own to Destiny: "What other inefficiencies would you use state violence to improve?" Destiny responds that Paying taxes, ensuring kids go to school, vaccinations, and ensure children receive proper nutrition would be viable use-cases for state violence. Hasan counters that a mother in a food desert may not have enough money to provide for their children, and the DA stepping in to jail that parent would be overtly cruel. Destiny responds that in Hasan's analogy, the children would simply die because he believes the DA should not be intervening in these scenarios. | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4646 1:17:26] Hasan argues that lazy parents not sending their children to schools is not a real problem. Destiny then asks Hasan what the alternative explanations to the parent not contacting the school are. Hasan refuses to answer the question, and posits a question of his own to Destiny: "What other inefficiencies would you use state violence to improve?" Destiny responds that Paying taxes, ensuring kids go to school, vaccinations, and ensure children receive proper nutrition would be viable use-cases for state violence. Hasan counters that a mother in a food desert may not have enough money to provide for their children, and the DA stepping in to jail that parent would be overtly cruel. Destiny responds that in Hasan's analogy, the children would simply die because he believes the DA should not be intervening in these scenarios. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4780 1:19:40] Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. | * [https://youtu.be/qvKIFQ3yh-c?t=4780 1:19:40] Destiny posits another hypothetical to Hasan: If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. |
Revision as of 15:02, 5 September 2024
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On July 9, 2019 Destiny and Hasan had a very heated discussion regarding American politician Kamala Harris, leading to their first major fallout. [1] While the two departed from the stream on fairly amicable terms with one another, the reddit threads created by both streamers following their initial discussion coupled with the resulting community backlash, ultimately soured both Destiny and Hasan on one another.[2][3] Following an onstream addressal of the breakup by Destiny, both streamers cut ties with one another for some time. [4]
Before | After |
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Kamala is cool: 16% Lukewarm on Kamala: 60% Hate Kamala: 24% |
Kamala is cool: 9% Lukewarm on Kamala: 43% Hate Kamala: 48% |
This discussion arose following Destiny's viewing of "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris" on Hasan's channel. Prior to and after viewing the video, Destiny polled his audience(see right) to determine their favorability towards Harris. Following the poll's completion, Destiny found that his audience held a more disfavorable view towards Harris after viewing the video. Upon seeing the results, Destiny explains that he fact-checked every claim by Hasan made in the video, and ultimately concluded that Hasan was wrong in several instances and may have even created the video in bad faith. Destiny went on to chide Hasan for erroneously spreading disinformation about a potential democratic candidate during an election year.
I went through the claims on the video, because I was curious how much of it was maybe exaggerated a little bit, how much of it was completely correct, and then "was there anything in here that was wrong". When I started to go through the claims in this video about Kamala Harris, almost every single thing Hasan says in this video is either dead wrong or horribly stretched out of what's actually happening... Almost every single point, and it actually was like really frustrating to listen to. — Destiny on Hasan's You Don't want Kopmala Harris video. |
Destiny provides the following examples of bad faith critiques made by Hasan throughout the video:
Topic | Hasan's claim | Destiny's critique | ||||||
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ICE | Hasan claims that Kamala supported a law in 2008 that forced schools to refer undocumented students to ICE.
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Destiny explains that while he could find no information regarding the specific law Hasan is referring to, he was able to find information regarding a law established in that same year which allowed for illegal immigrants charged with a crime to be referred to ICE(with no mention of schools specifically referring students to the agency). Destiny goes on to explain that the law originated following an illegal immigrant being charged with the murder of three individuals, and that Kamala has recently stated that she regrets supporting the law. A chatter later asks if Destiny thinks this video is worse than any others critiquing Harris, given that Kamala is one of the "weirdest" areas of left-wing extreme bias. Destiny replies that it's not weird at all if one takes into account that people on the left hate cops, and that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
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Truancy policy | Hasan claims that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved "Lock[ing] innocent black mothers up for truancy". Hasan goes on to claim that Harris incarcerated a single, homeless mother of three working two jobs because her children were truants, and then touted it as a success story. Hasan went on to critique Harris for sending a "gestapo force" of intimidating officers(like homicide and gang detectives) to "scare the shit out of a homeless mother of three" into ensuring her children attended school.
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Destiny argues that while he remains unsure whether Harris' policy was a net good or bad, Hasan's framing of the policy(that Kamala was sending a "gestapo force" to bully homeless women into sending their children to school) was overtly negative, unfairly framed, and did not accurately represent the intent or outcomes of the policy. Destiny pointed out that Harris's policy was intended to address a real issue—truancy—which is linked to higher rates of criminal behavior and poor outcomes for children. He argued that Harris's use of legal pressure was a way to compel parents to take their children's education seriously and to connect them with resources that could help improve school attendance. Destiny maintains that this is a positive, albeit potentially harsh, intervention, rather than a draconian measure as Hasan implied.
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Should Kamala have addressed the issues differently? |
Hasan argues that Harris should have sought other ways to bolster individuals and address socioeconomic issues in her district that did not involve criminal prosecution.
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Destiny argues that as a District Attorney, Harris's primary responsibilities included law enforcement and public safety, and therefore, it was natural for her to use those tools to address issues like truancy. Destiny further argued that Harris did not have the the power to create social programs, allocate financial incentives, or directly address broader socio-economic issues. Destiny maintains that Harris's role was limited to enforcing the law and using legal measures to address problems within her jurisdiction. Destiny felt that Hasan's criticism did not fully account for these limitations, and that Hasan unfairly blamed Harris for not pursuing solutions that were beyond her control as a DA.
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Destiny spends the next hour of his stream fielding questions from his chat and expressing his overall disappointment with individuals in DGG defending Hasan's seemingly unfair position towards Harris, as well as Hasan himself for disseminating such misinformation. Throughout this portion of the stream, Destiny makes clear his regret towards previously making "blanket statements of hate" towards police officers, argues similar statements are a really poor way of making evaluations, and reiterates that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
Man, I really really regret all my previous tweets about hating cops, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have done it so much. I don't think it's good to just blanket hate cops, any more than it's good to blanket hate anybody. I don't think it's a good thing to do. I think there are a lot of shit fucking cops in the US and we have institutional problems with cops in the US, but it really blinds you to seeing anything in an objective manner, when you see a cop, and you instantly like hate every single thing associated with them. I don't know, I think it's a really bad way to go about evaluating a person. — Destiny on his prior statements regarding police officers |
Destiny goes on to express his disdain for statements such as "abolish all prisons", "getting rid of all police", and "all cops are bad", arguing such unproductive statements seem to be prevalent in much of left-leaning rhetoric surrounding crime and police officers. Destiny asserts that there is "two sides to the issue" and "some level of crime that [must be] addressed", which individuals like Hasan tend to refrain from acknowledging in their critiques. Before Destiny can continue his list of grievances, Hasan himself joins the call.
Reaction Timestamps | |
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Hasan joins the stream
Approximately one hour into Destiny recounting of his grievances with Hasan's "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris" video, Hasan himself joins the stream.[7] Upon joining the stream, Hasan asks Destiny what his issues were with the video. Destiny responds by offering to go through every one of his grievances, and Hasan agrees. Of note, Destiny did not have access to his typical headset/microphone setup, and was unable to raise his voice throughout the debate as he was away from home. This, in conjunction with Hasan's personal refusal to use a headset, resulted in several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny. While Destiny had several grievances prepared to discuss with Hasan, the pair only managed to discuss three topics:
- Did Kamala force schools to report undocumented students to ICE?
- Truancy policy
- Do Kamala Harris's donors make her untrustworthy?
Did Kamala force schools to report undocumented students to ICE?
Destiny begins the conversation by informing Hasan that he feels his video is extremely one-sided against Harris, and not fairly presented. He goes on to address the first claim in Hasan's video: Whether Harris supported a law that forced school to report undocumented felonious children over to ICE. While Destiny agrees with Hasan that supporting the policy was a poor choice on Harris's part(especially given the law's allowal for individuals to be deported based on charges), Destiny informs Hasan that schools did not truly have any involvement in this reporting of individuals to ICE. Upon Destiny's explanation of the lack of involvement by schools in the law, Hasan quickly agrees that schools were not responsible for reporting these children. Nonetheless, Hasan maintains that undocumented misdemeanant school children being deported without being charged remains an issue, especially if schools are reporting these children to the police. Hasan then walks back his prior claim, and argues that schools should bear some the blame for reporting these children to the authorities if they commited a crime. Destiny asks Hasan if he is able to understand the distinction between schools cooperating with authorities versus referring children directly to ICE, to which Hasan counters that an officer planted at a school with the capability of reporting a misdemeanant children over to ICE is not functionally different than the school themselves reporting the children. Destiny asks if Hasan's solution would be to remove police officers from school, Hasan answers in the affirmative, and Destiny attempts to move on to the next topic. Hasan takes issue with this, and the following exchange occurs:
Hasan: Why are you just laughing and saying we need to move on?
Destiny: Because that's just so fucking stupid, what do you mean? Do you just want to kick all police officers out of schools? Hasan: What do you mean? What do I mean? Do fucking schools need to have cops everywhere? Destiny: Some do, yeah! What the fuck kind of statement is that, of course some do! Hasan: abu..uhh..WHAT? Why? Cops should not be in any schools! I feel like I've heard you debate people a million times over about how it's kinda fucked up that we have cops in schools to begin with...what the fuck? Destiny: I feel like you went to a really nice school and you have no fucking idea like how dangerous some places... Hasan: No I didn't. I went to school in Turkey and in really fucking shitty neighborhoods as well, we never had cops...It's mind boggling to me that Americans legitimately believe that we need police officers inside of schools. |
Throughout the conversation, Destiny posits several hypotheticals to Hasan(outlined below) with regards to undocumented individuals having the police phoned on them, resulting in them eventually being reported to ICE and subsequently deported. Following each hypothetical provided, Hasan maintains that the individual alerting the authorities on these undocumented people face a share of the blame for their deportation. Following this, Destiny would ask Hasan for a solution, and Hasan's answer would involve some variation of removing police from said space,advising individuals to never call the police, or telling Destiny the hypothetical he provided is not comparable to the initial scenario involving school children. These hypotheticals are outlined in the table below:
Timestamp | Destiny's hypothetical | Hasan's response |
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25:49 | If an undocumented child was arrested in a mall for stealing, and then subsequently reported to ICE, would the mall be the one responsible for child being reported to ICE? | Hasan argues that this example is incongruent given that malls are public, Destiny responds that Hasan has it backwards and that schools are public and malls are privately owned. Hasan maintains his position irregardless, and argues that having police officers in a mall is way more reasonable than having police officers in a school. |
31:40 | A homeowner sees two individuals standing outside their home. The homeowner feels nervous about these individuals, so the homeowner calls the police. The individuals turn out to be illegal immigrants, and are deported. Is the homeowner responsible for this deportation? | Hasan responds that the homeowner would be responsible. Destiny then asks Hasan if he believes people should never call the police, to which Hasan replies that people should almost never resort to calling the police.
Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny's analogy is "terrible", as the homeowner is not associated with the strangers standing outside his home, unlike a school which would be responsible for the children that attend it. Destiny replies that he was attempting to explore the concept of complicity with Hasan rather than compare the two scenarios. |
32:59 | If a woman is raped by a hispanic person and calls the cops, is the women complicit in a deportation? | Hasan responds that the women would not be complicit, Destiny asks why, and Hasan responds that the women is being victimized by a crime and not a "random misdemeanor". |
33:17 | A women returning from a party starts walking home and is being followed by some people. The women gets nervous and calls the police, resulting in the two people following her to be arrested. These two people are illegal immigrants and end up being reported to ICE. Is that women playing a part in getting illegals deported? Should she not have done that? | Hasan responds that this is hurting his brain, and argues this hypothetical is incongruent with the initial scenario involving a school. Destiny informs Hasan that he's only positing these hypotheticals because Hasan said to never call the cops. Destiny concludes that Hasan doesn't feel truly feel this way, pointing to his hesitancy to respond to some of the hypotheticals.
After a pause, Hasan argues that while the women would be somewhat complicit in the immigrant being deported, it would be more understandable than a school calling the police on a child. |
36:07 | Someone breaking into a shed in your backyard. | Call the cops. |
Following the hypothetical involving a women returning from a party, Hasan goes on to state that he would never call the police if he was in any of the aforementioned scenarios, and would urge others to refrain from doing so as well. Destiny responds that this is among the most privileged arguments he has ever heard.
Hasan: I probably wouldn't [call the cops] and I would urge someone else to not do that as well, but it's more understandable and it doesn't really matter because under none of these circumstances are you under obligation of the person you are calling the cops on.
Destiny: You're giving me like one of the most privileged arguments I have ever heard in my entire life. You're literally telling me that if you're a women, and you're walking down the street, and you might be scared because people are following you, [you're saying that] it's pretty rude of you to call the cops, it's a pretty mean thing to call the cops. What if you have a person that lives in your neighborhood where there has been a lot of break-ins, what if you're somebody who has had their house broken into before and are worried that somebody is gonna do it. It's easy for you to say like "oh well you should never call the cops ever ever". I don't know if you've been in these situations, or you know people who have been in these situations, that's a pretty shitty thing to say to people that are maybe or actually fearing for stuff like that. Like I feel like that's really crazy like oh you should just never ever call the cops ever." Hasan: Why the fuck would you say it's a privileged argument? Dude ask the fucking people who live in poor neighborhood if they choose to call the cops in these circumstances or not okay? What are you talking about? Have you talked with a person who lives in a poor neighborhood? I'm confused right now. What? What? |
Following further deliberation, Hasan asserts that most poor individuals share his position on cops, and further argues that police do not truly increase the security in neighborhoods they monitor. This results in two more hypotheticals from Destiny before a seemingly fatigued Hasan asks what the main point of the discussion was to begin with. Destiny informs Hasan: Schools don't refer people to ICE, the police do when one is charged with a crime. Hasan concedes that Kamala did not report undocumented students to ICE, and he made a mistake in his video.
Topic Timestamps | |
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Truancy Policy
Destiny and Hasan spent quite some time discussing Harris' Truancy policy, and whether Hasan unfairly framed the facts/circumstances surrounding the policy. Throughout the debate, Hasan maintains the same points asserted in his initial video; He argues that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved locking up the mothers' of these truants. Hasan further contends that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority when instituting this policy, and that a DA such as Harris should not have addressed the issue relating to truant children at al. Destiny routinely attempts to counter this talking point throughout the discussion, arguing that that while he intuitively leans against the policy, Hasan's framing of the policy places Harris in an unnecessarily poor light. Destiny explains that Harris saw an issue in her district with children not attending school, and sought to alleviate the issue through the means she had available. Destiny goes on to explain that the best way to break the "cycle of criminality" would be to ensure children attended school, and argues that this issue would rightfully place the issue under Harris's purview with that in mind.
At one point during the discussion, Hasan argues that Destiny is blatantly taking a biased approach towards reviewing his content. Destiny responds that several of Hasan's arguments were backed by invalid underlying facts(outlined here), and therefore any conclusions drawn from those pieces of information were also invalid. Destiny continues, and argues that Hasan in fact has frequently shown his own biases towards the police/Harris given that he referred to the police as the "gestapo" in his video, and just stated he hates cops. Destiny reiterates that the underlying facts in Hasan's video are incorrect, and every time they attempt to move away from one fact in the conversation, Hasan reverts to some prior point(e.g. ICE and schools). Destiny goes on to assert that Hasan is arguing in a similar fashion to a race realist:
"This is like every argument I've ever had with a race realist who's like "well I think this thing", and it's like "well hold on like these underlying facts don't make sense". Then when you start to address some of the underlying facts, they keep retreating back to their higher level position ignoring all of the other underlying facts that were incorrect." — Destiny comparing Hasan's argumentative style to that of a race-realist |
Throughout the conversation, Destiny positied a myriad of hypotheticals to Hasan pertaining to whether the DA would be justified in stepping in to enforce their authority in scenarios where other institutions failed to do so, especially with regards to truancy and "state-violence". Hasan's response to these hypotheticals would more often than not be some variation of asserting the DA should do nothing, asserting that locking up mothers of truants is a poorer outcome than students failing to go to school, and arguing that other departments could handle the hypothetical issue presented without the use of state-violence(e.g. jailing individuals). To each of these rebuttals by Hasan, Destiny maintained that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system, and further lessens the likelihood they will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Destiny further argues that the government utilizes state-violence frequently to get people to act in the best interest of the state, and questions why Hasan has undertaken a "dumb libertarian mindset" with regards to personal freedom with regards to truancy.
The exact scenarios Destiny and Hasan deliberated on with regards to state-violence are presented in the table below:
Timestamp | Scenario/hypothetical | Hasan's response |
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1:04:52 | Destiny asks Hasan who he believes should be making kids to go to school. | Hasan responds that governments should use positive influences(e.g. better classrooms, basketball programs) to ensure kids stay in school. Destiny continues the hypothetical, and asks Hasan what should be done if the children continue to fail to go to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny has placed him in an "unrealistic corner", and reiterates his point that well-funded schools tend to see better children attendance rates. |
1:07:31 | Destiny restates his question regarding "who should make kids go to school", and if the state should force kids to go to school if they have lazy parents. | Hasan retorts that lazy parents should not have to force their kids to go to school in this "ridiculously created, hypothetical strawman." |
1:12:27 | Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction) | Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction. Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle these issues. |
1:16:13 | Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him. | Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood these individuals will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect. |
1:19:40 | If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? | Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. |
Unfortunately, this portion of the debate was especially mired by several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny due to the poor quality headset/microphone setup Destiny possessed at the time(Destiny did not have access to his typical audio setup, and was unable to raise his voice throughout the debate as he was a guest in someone's home).
Topic Timestamps | |
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Do Kamala Harris's donors make her untrustworthy?
Conclusion
Upon the calls conclusion, Destiny offered to do a second debate on the subject should Hasan wish, and Hasan agreed. From there, the two seemingly depart from the call amiably.
Destiny and Hasan create reddit threads following the debate WIP
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cbdj2w/on_bootyjudge/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cayg1e/if_destiny_wants_to_remain_morally_consistent_he/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cgsvav/effort_post_rdestiny_v_rhasan_piker_hate_threads/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ccvbmw/a_very_comprehensive_summary_of_events_leading_to/
Hasanabi And Destiny BREAK UP Aftermath, Hasan types in dgg chat while Destiny discusses their breakup WIP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsvkP_sVQw
- ↑ Destiny. (2019, July 9). Hasanabi And Destiny BREAK UP Over Kamala Misinformation. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLfAuWe3xho
- ↑ https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cayg1e/if_destiny_wants_to_remain_morally_consistent_he/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cbdj2w/on_bootyjudge/
- ↑ Destiny. (2019, July 10). Hasanabi And Destiny BREAK UP Aftermath. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsvkP_sVQw
- ↑ The image provided is a screenshot of Destiny posting the strawpoll to members of his chat. Following the closure of strawpoll.me, the links Destiny provided in these logs are now broken.
- ↑ Media:HasanDestinyKamalaChatterban.jpg
- ↑ Last Night On Destiny. (2024, February 7). Destiny Confronts Hasan For Twitter Misinfo, Bridge In FLAMES! | DEBATE BREAKDOWN. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvKIFQ3yh-c