"I've never been more gaslit in my entire life..." - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More

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"I've never been more gaslit in my entire life..." - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More

On October 22, 2019 Destiny participated in a political panel hosted by MindWaves. The panel featured Hasan Piker, TheSerfsTV(AKA Lance), Pxie, Ahrelevant, Bastiat, Kormantine and Cole James Cash.

First topic: Canadian Elections

Following a brief introduction from each panelist regarding their political affiliations and streams, Mindwaves presented the first topic: What does each panelist believe will be the fallout of a recent Canadian Election?. Bastiat, being of the opinion the election will likely be to the economic detriment of Canadians, argues the election has prevented the establishment of oil pipelines across the country. Kormantine takes issues with this, asserting that these pipelines would likely never have been established anyways as the Canadian government never received the consent of First Nations to establish such infrastructure, and repeatedly requests for Bastiat to stop arguing in hypotheticals. Bastiat counters that this argument is not hypothetical, points out that the land has already been set aside to lay such pipelines, and informs Kormantine that Trudeau had recently blocked a pipeline bill for $4.5 billion.

During the conversation, both Kormantine and Pixie claim that renewable energies are liable to take off some time in the not-to-distant future, thereby eliminating the country's need for fossil fuels and making any arguments for oil pipelines in the nation irrelevant. Destiny counters that such assertions are unfounded, and that anyone who suggests entirely replacing a nation's dependence on fossil fuels with renewable energies is unserious. Kormantine responds "I know you're not fucking talking right now... what do you know about my country?", to which Destiny sarcastically concedes that it may be possible that Canada has access to some secret alternative energies that nobody else in the world has. Kormantine goes on to assert that Canada is doing fine with their current exports, Destiny responds "doing fine isn't enough with everybody dawg". Before he can continue, Kormantine takes issue with Destiny's use of the word "dawg", and informs Destiny "you don't know me like that".

'"Being friendly, don't mean you're my fucking friend... That goes for some individuals in this stream... Being polite, and joking about certain shit that you know damn well you couldn't walk into a room full of people of color and joke like that, or say something like that... It's a whole lot of that."

— James Cole Cash

While the conversation was overall uneventful, it did provide a glimpse into the true intentions of some panelists joining the panel, of note:

• 2:35 When prompted to provide an intro, Cole states that he runs the "ghetto-news-network" and represents the "gangsta-left". In defining the "gangsta-left", Cole explains that he "doesn't play nice" nor "engage in civility, and will "call [anyone] out for actin' foul".
• 10:31 When asked about his feelings about the Canadian Election, Cole explains that the election taught him that Canadians are "very friendly" about their racism. Kormantine agrees with this, caveating that this racism tends to diminish when "black folks" confront white people about this racism.
• 22:39 Cole requesting to move on to the next topic.

Given the apparent desire of some panelists(primarily Cole James Cash) to move on from the subject, the Election discussion only made up the first thirty minutes of the four hour panel.

Discussion Timestamps

0:45 Panel intros begin. 1:05 Kormantine gives his intro, he describes himself as a Black Socialist. 2:35 Cole James Cash gives his intro. He explains that he runs the "ghetto-news-network" and represents the "gangsta-left". In defining the "gangsta-left", Cole explains that he "doesn't play nice" nor "engage in civility, and will "call [anyone] out for actin foul". 4:22 Destiny gives his intro. 5:02 Bastiat gives his intro. 6:02 Lance gives his intro. 7:01 Pxie gives her intro. 8:30 Lance describes the topic, explaining that a recent Canadian election was going to be a toss-up between conservative and liberals, and the liberals lost out. Kormantine chimes in and explains that the election was a resounding defeat for most parties involved(liberals losing 27 seats, conservatives gaining 32). 10:31 Cole chimes in, adding that the election taught him that Canadians are "very friendly" about their racism. Kormantine agrees with this, caveating that this racism tends to diminish when "black folks" confront white people about this racism. 11:38 Cole:"Being friendly, don't mean you're my fucking friend... That goes for some individuals in this stream... Being polite, and joking about certain shit that you know damn well you couldn't walk into a room full of people of color and joke like that, or say something like that... It's a whole lot of that." 12:34 Bastiat expresses how happy he is that Canadians were able to express their right to self-determination, and explains he is happy that the election has prevented the establishment of oil pipelines across Canada. He goes on to explain that as a result of this election, Canada will be forced to send their oil through the United States. 13:21 Pxie begins to chime in but is told to stop talking by Kormantine so he can get his point across. Kormantine argues that there are several reasons the oil pipelines can't move through the country outside of the ones provided by Bastiat. He explains that the oil pipelines would never have been established, given the lack of consent from first-nations. 18:22 Bastiat asserts that "pipelines in general are done in Canada". Kormantine once again argues that Bastiat is arguing in hypotheticals as the pipelines would never have been established to begin with, and Bastiat counters that the Trudeau had recently blocked a pipeline bill for $4.5 billion. 19:21 Cole describes Bastiat as "corny". 19:37 Mindwaves asks for Lance's perspective on the topic. Lance explains he doesn't know anything about this subject and wanted to talk about the election. Destiny chimes in that energy is important, and Bastiat adds that Canada's economic future for pipelines has been terminated. 20:55 Kormantine adds that Canada has recently invested in solar and wind energy. 21:20 Pxie asks for some clarification, explaining that she initially thought Canada was a service-based economy. Kormantine and Ahrelvant argue this seems to be true, to which Pxie adds that such a pipeline would not likely have a large impact on Canada's economy. Destiny adds that pain felt in an economy, would not be felt "all over" an economy. He explains that this pain is typically concentrated in specific areas, and the pain in those areas would be highly visible. He concludes that the pain in shutting down exports to oil, regardless how small that sector may be, would likely cause very visible pain to that area of the economy. 22:39 Cole sarcastically responds to Destiny, arguing they should "move the fuck on from this shit and get to the next topic". Kormantine adds he would have prefered to have this discussion with people who were more aware of Canada's situation. 23:23 Destiny argues that it is ridiculous for Pxie or Kormantine to suggest that Canada should replace all of it's fossil fuels with clean energy. Kormantine responds "I know you're not fucking talking right now... what do you know about my country?" Destiny sarcastically concedes that it may be possible that Canada has access to some secret alternative energies that nobody else in the world has. 24:02 Kormantine asserts that Canada is doing fine with their current exports, Destiny responds "doing fine isn't enough with everybody dawg". Kormantine takes issue with Destiny's use of the word "dawg", and informs Destiny "you don't know me like that". 26:03 Mindwaves asks the panel what other negative consequences may occur as a result of this election. Kormantine responds first, arguing the situation is not bad overall. He notes that the biggest fight to take place following the election relates to immigration policy.

Second topic: N-Word in private WIP

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/dmjb18/clarifying_some_previous_events/

The topic list disseminated to panel members prior to the podcast. Of note, the list contains no reference to the "n-word in private" topic.

Following the uneventful conclusion to the discussion on Canadian Elections, Mindwaves introduces the next topic: Usage of the n-word in private. The topic was allegedly introduced following requests from both Cole and Kormantine prior to the beginning of the podcast, as they were both seemingly eager to confront Destiny on the subject. Upon introducing the topic, several members of the panel, Destiny included, can be heard laughing. Of note, Cole James Cash can be heard verbally celebrating the topic's announcement, and Kormantine states "that's the only one I came here for... let's fuckin' go".

Destiny's position WIP

Destiny argues that if one is not racist, is in a private setting, and is among individuals they know are not racist, making edgy jokes for shock value does not necessarily make them racist. Destiny posits a healthy engagement with such edgy-jokes is possible, much like it is possible for individuals to engage in violent video games without becoming violent themselves.

Throughout the podcast, several of Destiny's fellow panelists question why Destiny would make his stance on the n-word in private known to the public. They argue stating as much would negatively influence individuals who would otherwise be unable to separate the "shock-value" element of such humor from the "racial-element", and thereby causing these individuals to become racist. In response, Destiny contends that individuals in his audience who consume the array of progressive-orientated and inclusive topics he typically discusses, would not typically fall in the category of individuals taking such jokes beyond their shock value.

Destiny vs. Cole James Cash

Heading into the topic, the initial discussions were quite contentious. To start, Destiny and Cole spend some time holding a fairly unproductive exchange between one another. Following this exchange, Mindwaves would go on to criticize Cole and Kormantine for requesting the topic be placed on the list, and directly chides Cole for being inflammatory. Exchanges like this occurred several times during the first hour of the podcast:

Timestamp	Exchange
28:49	Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are".
29:57	Cole informs Destiny he is displaying "a lot of Yakubian energy right now.
31:28	Cole implicitly threatens Destiny, and asks if he's going to TwitchCon. Destiny mocks Cole for this threat, and accuses him of being a wannabe gangster and cringe.
32:22	Ahrelevant provides his input on the topic, asserting he is fine with Destiny saying the word in private. Cole responds that Ahrelevant needs to "spend time with [his] own people". Mindwaves steps in, and ridicules Cole of accusing Ahrelevant of "not being black enough" to have an opinion.
34:34	Cole informs Destiny that he is "not built" to be stating such statements publicly as his "heart pumps Kool-Aid".
55:32	Cole interjects shortly after Destiny accuses Kormantine of engaging in a non-sequitur to inform Destiny that Kormantine did not engage in the logical fallacy. Destiny responds by asking Cole to define what a non-sequitur is, Cole is unable to respond, and Destiny requests for Cole to "shut the fuck up".

On the assertions made by Cole that Destiny deemed warranted a response, Destiny informs Cole that he makes jokes in private with friends he knows are not racist. Destiny continues, explaining to Cole that he has no right to dictate what is said in those private conversations.

Throughout the duration of Cole's short-lived time on the podcast, he is repeatedly scolded by Mindwaves and several other members of the panel for the brash and brazen method he went about discussing the presented topic with Destiny, especially given that the topic was suggested by Cole himself. Several of these interactions between Cole and Destiny typically involved him implicitly threatening Destiny in some manner, accusing Destiny of never stepping foot outside, requesting for Destiny to take a shower, or stating Destiny lacks empathy. This was routinely met with Destiny accusing Cole of being an "internet tough guy", and mocking Cole for the lack of meaningful contributions to the topic. Furthermore, any earnest response Destiny attempted to give to Cole was routinely interrupted by Cole himself. This continues for some time before Cole exits the podcast in frustration after being repeatedly warned by Mindwaves to engage in the discussion meaningfully. Shortly following Cole's departure, Hasan takes his stead. Later on in the discussion, Kormantine, TheSerfs, and Hasan would go on to claim that Cole left following the abusive behavior exhibited by Destiny and MindWaves during the panel.^{[citation needed]}

Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Cole

28:20 Mindwaves introduces the topic. 28:49 Mindwaves offers Destiny the opportunity to speak on the topic first, and jests that his fellow black panelists may take issue with his position(Destiny being of the opinion that usage of the n-word in private should be permitted). When Destiny responds "ya think?" Kormantine questions why Destiny would respond with such a statement, and Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are". 29:06 Cole asks Destiny when the last time he showered was. Mindwaves and Destiny question how that pertains to the presented topic. 29:28 Cole directly asks Destiny why he refuses to acknowledge being racist. Destiny, posits a question of his own in response: "Who the fuck are you to tell me what I can say in my free time?" 29:57 Cole informs Destiny he is displaying "a lot of Yakubian energy right now, and once again requests for Destiny to admit to being racist. Before Destiny and Cole can continue, Mindwaves interrupts the two and criticizes the lack of productive arguments being brought forth by Cole and Kormatine. Mindwaves goes on to criticize the two for requesting the topic being placed on the list, and directly chides Cole for being inflammatory. 30:54 Cole asks Destiny how he addresses his position with other black individuals, and how he can claim to not be racist. Destiny responds that he makes jokes in private with his friends that he wouldn't make publically. Destiny goes on to inform Cole he has no right to dictate what he says in private conversations. 31:28 Cole implicitly threatens Destiny, and asks if he's going to TwitchCon. Destiny mocks Cole for this threat, and accuses him of being a wannabe gangster and cringe. 32:22 Ahrelevant provides his input on the topic, asserting he is fine with Destiny saying the word in private. Cole responds that Ahrelevant needs to "spend time with [his] own people". Mindwaves steps in, and ridicules Cole of accusing Ahrelevant of "not being black enough" to have an opinion. 32:50 Pxie chimes in, and asks Destiny why he believes saying the n-word isn't racist. Destiny responds that as a public figure, he does not platform language that is harmful or further entrenches groups of people. Destiny continues, explaining that when in private and surrounded by individuals he is sure are not racist, there are "edgy" jokes involving racist terms he would be comfortable making(e.g. jokes from a George Carlin Skit, or a Boondocks episode). Pxie retorts that Destiny saying he states these jokes in private to the public, defeats the purpose of Destiny's stance on racist words. Destiny counters that he never repeats these "private jokes" to the public, as such, it would not nullify any public stance he takes on such terms. 34:34 Cole informs Destiny that he is "not built" to be stating such statements publicly as his "heart pumps Kool-Aid". 35:06 Mindwaves gives Kormantine the opportunity to speak. Kormantine first asks for Mindwaves's name, Mindwaves responds "Ian", and Kormantine asks "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Destiny retorts that Kormantine has described all discussions surrounding political issues. 36:48 Pxie remarks that Destiny does not typically debate to change individuals minds, but is mainly trying to suey the audience. Destiny agrees. 37:20 Kormantine asks if anyone on the panel "studies this"(sociology, history, etc) for a living. Cole responds in the affirmative, and Kormantine asserts that he has engaged in such studies professionally as well. Kormantine goes on to point to a study where it was discovered a real social harm arises when individuals sharing/overhearing racial jokes in private. Kormantine goes on to point out that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless. 40:14 Cole provides a follow-up to Kormantine's response. In his follow-up, Cole clarifies his prior assertion that Destiny does not leave the house, explaining that Destiny would never "keep that same energy in a room full of black folks". Cole continues, explaining that the "triggered" demeanor conveyed by Destiny is indicative of his underlying racist thoughts. Destiny cuts Cole off before he can continue, and counters that Cole has in fact been "triggered" throughout the duration of the podcast. 41:39 Cole asserts that Destiny treating "the one black person who tried to appeal to [his] humanity" in such a manner, is once again indicative of Destiny's lack of empathy. 42:21 Mindwaves cuts off Cole and allows Destiny to elucidate on his position further. Destiny goes on to criticize both Cole and Kormantine, accuses the two of "being down everybody's throat" the entire podcast and being "insanely aggressive with no provocation". 43:03 Kormantine denies ever being aggressive during the podcast. Destiny goes on to continue with his assertion, but is cut off as Kormantine states "as your father I demand that you address me with respect, I have no been aggressive". Destiny then asserts that he is "getting aids" from this conversation. 43:51 Bastiat states that any value to be had in this conversation was lost by Cole being overtly aggressive and unproductive. 46:24 As Destiny is explaining an analogy to Kormantine, Cole interjects and mocks Destiny. Destiny goes on to chide Cole for not contributing in any meaningful way to the conversation. Mindwaves shares this sentiment and requests for Cole to refrain from speaking if he has no worthwhile thoughts to share. Mindwaves continues, questioning why Cole would request the topic be brought forth if he would be unable to hold a discussion on it without getting worked up. Destiny agrees, and suggests that Cole take a coffee/smoke break. Cole responds by suggesting Destiny should take a shower. 55:32 Cole interjects shortly after Destiny accuses Kormantine of engaging in a non-sequitur, to inform Destiny that Kormantine did not engage in the logical fallacy. Destiny responds by asking Cole to define what a non-sequitur is, Cole is unable to respond, and Destiny requests for Cole to "shut the fuck up". 56:11 Cole repeatedly calls Destiny a bad person. Mindwaves later tells Cole to shut the fuck up, and requests for him to "actually add" to the conversation. 1:02:03 Cole exits the panel in frustration, calling this topic "bullshit". Mindwaves becomes irate following Cole's departure, describing how Cole repeatedly asked for the topic to be discussed. 1:21:54 Kormantine accuses Destiny of lacking the capacity to listen.

Destiny vs. Kormantine WIP

Cole James Cash advertising his appearance on the Big Brain Podcast to confront Destiny alongside Kormantine.

In comparison to Cole James Cash, Kormantine took a relatively more subtle approach in his criticisms of Destiny's position. Kormantine's primary argument being that several studies have proven a real social harm arises from individuals sharing/overhearing racial-charged jokes in private. He contends that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless.

Although Kormantine initially seemed open to discussing the subject, his argumentative tactics made panelists feel like they were being "talked at" rather than engaged in a genuine conversation. Tactics such as appeals to his own authority, requesting for only black members of the panel be permitted to speak on the subject, interrupting individuals, and an overall questionable engagement with several of the analogies/hypotheticals posited, were oftentimes met with reprehension by Destiny and many of the other panelists.

The most controversial moments of the panel occurs following Kormantine's attempt at having a "brother to brother" moment with fellow African American panelist Ahrelevant. Upon discovering that Ahrelevant shares Destiny's perspective on edgy language(including the n-word) in private contexts, Kormantine informs Ahrelevant he is not black enough to hold the conversation.^{[citation needed]}

Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Kormantine

28:49 Mindwaves offers Destiny the opportunity to speak on the topic first, and jests that his fellow black panelists may take issue with his position(Destiny being of the opinion that usage of the n-word in private should be permitted). When Destiny responds "ya think?" Kormantine questions why Destiny would respond with such a statement, and Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are". 35:06 Mindwaves gives Kormantine the opportunity to speak. Kormantine first asks for Mindwaves's name, Mindwaves responds "Ian", and Kormantine asks "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Destiny retorts that Kormantine has described all discussions surrounding political issues. 37:20 Kormantine asks if anyone on the panel "studies this"(sociology, history, etc) for a living. Cole responds in the affirmative, and Kormantine asserts that he has engaged in such studies professionally as well. Kormantine goes on to point to a study where it was discovered a real social harm arises when individuals sharing/overhearing racial jokes in private. Kormantine goes on to point out that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless. 43:03 Kormantine denies ever being aggressive during the podcast. Destiny goes on to continue with his assertion, but is cut off as Kormantine states "as your father I demand that you address me with respect, I have no been aggressive". Destiny then asserts that he is "getting aids" from this conversation. 44:35 Destiny apologizes to Kormantine for being aggressive earlier, and attempts to address Kormantine's assertion. As Destiny begins to explain, Kormatine cuts him off and firmly asserts that every study he had parsed through stated that individuals who say racial slurs in private tend to develop racist thoughts. 45:13 Destiny explains that while it doesn't surprise him that people who use certain types of slurs tend to develop certain opinions, he asserts it is possible to engage in certain humours in ways that can minimize such effects happening to someone. Kormantine cuts off Destiny once more, and argues every study he read that analyzed the scenario presented shows individuals will become racist regardless. Kormantine pulls up several physical copies of books in the process of making his argument, and states he could find no study that backed Destiny's assertion. 46:04 Destiny asks Kormantine if he would ban all violent video games. Kormantine responds by questioning the relevance of this analogy. Destiny continues irregardless, and explains that there was a meta analysis involving 17,000 individuals showing a massive link between violent video games and aggressive behavior. Following an interruption by Cole, Destiny attempts to elucidate on his position further before Kormantine interrupts once more asking for Destiny to state who the author of the met a analysis was. Destiny continues, arguing that while the link is undeniable between violent video games and aggressive behavior, he hopes that people would be able to be moved to engage in this media in a responsible manner, rather than outright banning the media. 47:48 Destiny likens the gaming study to the current topic. He argues that he would hope an individual,such as himself, who has become substantially less racist over time, should be able to engage in such "shock-value" humor in a manner that doesn't turn them into a racist over time. 48:46 Kormantine responds that he doesn't give a shit about why Destiny uses racial jokes in private, he explains his primary concern is Destiny's proclaiming of such to his audience. He contends that not everyone who views Destiny's stream has a "mind-palace" constructed for themselves to prevent those racial jokes from turning themselves into racists. 50:31 Destiny contends that the individuals who consume his broader content are unlikely to fall in the category of racist individuals taking such jokes beyond their shock value. 50:39 Kormantine questions why Destiny is yelling at him, and Destiny denies doing so. Destiny goes on to explain that he is talking in such a fast manner as Kormantine has interrupted him several times, and is showing a tendency to "talk at him". 51:04 Kormantine claims to study racism in his private life, and that Destiny has not. Kormantine continues, and states Destiny is not arguing in reality, and provides a few anecdotes from a study. Destiny takes issue with the example provided by Kormantine, as the individual was not telling a joke and engaging in blatant racism. He concludes that the point of these anecdotes is that individuals who make these jokes will tend to think they are of a dominant social class. 54:04 Kormantine asserts that Destiny informing his audience tha the thinks it's okay to say edgy jokes in private, may lead his audience to believe such jokes are harmless, thereby causing members of his audience to express such edgy thoughts that are harmful to people of color. 54:21 Destiny accuses Kormantine of gish galloping, and informs him they are not having a real conversation right now. Kormantine replies that Destiny is simply just not on his level. Destiny retorts that he once again does not want to be "talked at" by Kormantine, and would like to have an actual conversation. 55:09 Kormantine asks if there's any "calculus" Destiny can arrive at that would prove him wrong. Destiny concedes that this is possible. Kormantine continues, and asks why he didn't hear out Trihex(an African American friend of Destiny's at the time) when he expressed his discomfort with Destiny's usage of the n-word in private. Destiny responds that this is a non-sequitur, and Cole steps in to argue with Destiny. 57:06 Kormantine asks Mindwaves why he's surprised by the behavior of African American's on the panel such as Cole given the nature of the topic. Destiny points out that he has had this same conversation with several other African Americans who were much more calm, namely Ahrelevant and Trihex. 57:28 Ahrelevant is given the opportunity to speak, he states he agrees with Destiny given that he is referring to "edgy-jokes" in general. 58:22 Destiny asks Kormantine if he believes someone quoting a Dave Chappelle skit using the n-word is the same as somebody saying they "hate all n-words". Kormantine replies that this is a stupid question. Destiny then responds that Kormantine is reading off a "giant fucking script he can't deviate off of". Kormantine replies: "How are you gonna debate me on my own fucking humanity?" 59:21 The panel attempts to give Pxie an opportunity to speak on the subject, and Kormantine states she should not speak on the manner because she's not black. Despite this, Pxie is given the opportunity to speak anyways. She states that Destiny admitting to saying the n-word in private defeats the purpose of his stance as it might normalize such racially charged language for individuals in his audience. She continues, arguing that individuals may not always know if someone is making a joke or not when saying the n-word. 1:01:16 Destiny asks Pxie if she believes that rape-kinks are okay . She argues there's a clear difference, as individuals with a rape-fetish possess a mutually consenting fetish. Destiny counters that there is no true difference, as such edgy-jokes would only be shared with individuals he knows are not racist, in the same way individuals who share a "rape-kink" would know they're not actually engaging in rape. 1:04:43 Following Cole's departure, and Mindwaves becoming irate, Kormantine asks Mindwaves how he can be upset at Cole for being made to debate such a sensitive topic. He continues, arguing it is toxic to have African Americans come into a conversation such as this and "prove themselves". Mindwaves retorts that Cole wanted to have this conversation, and therefore had no right to complain about the presence of the topic. 1:06:32 Kormantine argues he would be able to have a discussion on this topic with Ahrelevant given that he is a fellow African American. He continues, asserting that white people are unable to be challenged by African Americans without getting frustrated. Destiny retorts that it is disgusting for Kormantine to "even pretend" that such grievances are even mildly related to the topic at hand. 1:07:05 Ahrelevant points out that Kormantine has told Pxie to be quiet several times throughout the podcast. Kormantine reiterates that anybody who is not black should not voice their opinion on this subject. 1:07:57 Kormantine requests for the white individuals on the panel to "stop talking" and let the African Americans speak on the subject, and allow himself to "speak from his soul" . Kormantine continues, arguing that conversations like this create an unsafe environment for people of color, and asserts this is why Cole lefty the show. Destiny disagrees, and states that Cole left the show because he's a "bitch" and an "internet tough guy". 1:09:02 Kormantine argues Destiny would never say such edgy-jokes in a black neighborhood. Destiny counters that he obviously would not, and to even imply as much is ridiculous. He continues, asserting that "people say different things in front of different people", and provides the example of being shot because he told his girlfriend's dad they have sex. Kormantine responds by questioning why Destiny is yelling at him, and questions what is missing from Destiny's soul. 1:10:15 Ahrelevant asks Kormantine if he believes race-play is something two consenting adults should be allowed to do. Kormantine answers in the affirmative, but argues a distinction is at play between a consenting adult wanting to do something versus feeling the need to do something to feel accepted by the "dominant class". Ahrelevant likens this to the topic at hand, arguing one would have to make a better vetting process for the individuals they choose to make those edgy jokes around. Kormantine then denies the comparison altogether, arguing adults consenting to kinks in a relationship is not equivalent to adults consenting to jokes. 1:12:32 Kormantine and Ahrel argue for some time, with Ahrel taking great issued with Kormantine effectively silencing 75%(all the white people) of the panel. 1:13:15 Kormantine asserts that every argument he has made is backed by evidence, and every argument against him is backed by feelings. Ahrelevant and Kormantine continue to argue for some time. 1:15:04 Kormantine responds to Ahrelevant's race-play comparison, arguing if a black individual in such a scenario were to consent he sees no issue. However, he caveats that he would question why a white person in such a scenario would have such a kink. Kormantine maintains that the two subjects are incompatible, Destiny takes issue and argues that spousal oppression/rape(man over women) has existed for just as long if not longer than oppression over minorities. Destiny goes on to chide Kormantine for consistently pivoting throughout the conversation. 1:15:52 Kormantine accuses Destiny of "smashing together incomparable social issues". Destiny denies doing so, and accuses Kormantine of consistently pivoting throughout the discussion and refusing to give a genuine answer to a question. 1:16:11 Destiny reiterates the question posited by Ahrelevant: "Why is it okay to engage in rape play despite their being a history a current case of oppression of men over women, but not okay to engage in race-play given the same oppression exists towards minorities?" Kormantine responds by asking a question a question of his own regarding the patriarchy and oppression. 1:17:34 Kormantine states there is not a historical subordination of an entire class of women such that they are treated as property, arguing that there are women who participate in the patriarchy "furthering that project". He points to the wife of a slave owner receiving her husband's property upon his death as an example. He continues, arguing that rape-play example is irrelevant given that both the man and the women in such a scenario are part of a dominant class. 1:18:00 Destiny takes issue with Kormantine's point, arguing that women have seen such oppression historically such as voting rights, sex-slave trade, being married off to families. 1:19:16 Kormantine asks for Destiny to define what a "black" is. Destiny responds it is a social construct for the way a person tends to look, Kormantine responds that's not true, and Destiny heatedly requests for Kormantine to explain what part is not true. Upon Kormantine's hesitation, Destiny continues to pressure him for a response for some time. 1:26:39 Following Destiny responses to some questions from Hasan, Kormantine accuses Destiny of missing the point. Destiny then replies: "I don't care what you think... you lack the education to talk about this." 1:28:33 Destiny asserts that just because Kormantine is black, does not necessarily give him the authority to speak on this topic with authority. Kormantine replies he did not join this podcast to debate Destiny, but to preach to a broader audience. 1:29:25 After Kormantine accuses Destiny of potentially being a paid actor, Destiny responds: "You have no idea who the fuck I am or what i've been paid to do. You clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about so I have no idea why you would accuse me of doing that." Kormantine responds by suggesting that Destiny would never say such things to his face, and Destiny offers to have this exchange in person at the next twitchcon. Mindwaves steps in at this point to cut off the heated exchange, and accuses Kormantine of posturing the entire podcast. 1:43:57 Kormantine interrupts an exchange between Hasan and Destiny to state he is getting a headache, and questions the need to have the conversation and Destiny's lack of an apology for using the word. Destiny counters by questioning why Kormantine feels the need to police his private conversations.

Grievances with the subject

Despite previously celebrating the topic's announcement and proclaiming it's the topic he joined the panel for, Kormantine goes on to questions the presence of the topic. At the onset of the discussion, Kormantine asks Mindwaves: "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Despite this, Kormantine remained in the call for the duration of the topic's discussion.

During the panel, Kormantine took particular issue with the white individuals on the show attempting to voice an opinion on the subject, and demanded the conversation be kept between the black members of the panel. This was much to the chagrin of fellow African American panelist Ahrelevant, who accused Kormantine of effectively "silencing 75% of the panel".

Appeals to authority

Throughout the panel, Kormantine would frequently attempt to leverage his credentials to speak on certain portions of the topic from a position of authority.During these bouts, Kormantine would claim to study the subject for a living, point to several pieces of literature(both physical and digital) which he alleges back his argument, and chide others in the panel who he deemed to be not well read enough on the subject at hand to voice a valid opinion.

Race-play vs Racial Humour

At one point during the discussion, Ahrelevant asks Kormantine if he believes race-play to be something two consenting adults should be allowed to do. Kormantine answers in the affirmative, but argues a distinction is at play between a consenting adult wanting to do something versus feeling the need to do something to feel accepted by the "dominant class"(referring to white people). Ahrelevant then likens this to the topic at hand, explaining while one would have to make a better vetting process for the individuals they choose to make those edgy jokes around, the same process could apply to individuals making edgy-jokes in private. Kormantine then denies the comparison altogether, arguing adults consenting to kinks in a relationship is not equivalent to adults consenting to jokes.

The question is posited to Kormantine once more, and Kormantine argues if a black individual in such a scenario were to consent he sees no issue. However, he caveats that he would question why a white person in such a scenario would have such a kink. Kormantine goes on to maintain that the two subjects are incompatible, and accuses Destiny and Ahrelevant of "smashing together incomparable social issues". Kormantine goes on to explain there is not a historical subordination of an entire class of women such that they are treated as property, and argues that there are women who participate in the patriarchy "furthering that project". He points to the wife of a slave owner receiving her husband's property upon his death as an example. He continues, arguing that rape-play example is irrelevant given that both the man and the women in such a scenario are part of a dominant class. Destiny takes great issue with Kormantine's assertion, and argues that women have seen similar oppression historically such as a lack of voting rights, sex-slave trade, and being married off to families.

Defining "Black"

At one point during the conversation, Kormantine asks for Destiny to define what a "black" is. Destiny responds it is a social construct for the way a person tends to look. In return, Kormantine responds that's not true. Upon hearing his disagreeal Destiny repeatedly requests for Kormantine to explain what part is not true, Kormantine hesitates, and Destiny continues to pressure Kormantine to issue a response for some time. Several times throughout thi exchange, Destiny, poking fun at Kormantine making similar assertions earlier, would state something like: "The fact that came out of your mouth tells me you're lying about this, you're not educated. I've read studies and books and know you're wrong, i'm sorry man". Statements like this were met with much controversy both during and after the podcast, as many people would point to this quote as Destiny deriding Kormantine's educational background(despite Kormantine doing the same to several of his fellow panelists up until this point).

Destiny vs. Hasan WIP

Upon entering the call, Hasan is greeted jovially by Destiny. The two exchange some pleasantries regarding a hot-chip challenge Destiny had participated in and the diminished communications between the two as of late. Following this, Mindwaves Provides Hasan the opportunity to ask Destiny a few questions.

Timestamp	Hasan's Question	Destiny's response
1:23:04	Why do you not want people to say the n-word in public?	Destiny believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs.
1:24:54	Do you feel like discussing this position in public undermines your entire view?	Destiny argues that a miserable difference exists between proclaiming one tells edgy-jokes in private versus actually saying the edgy-jokes in public. Destiny likens this to informing someone they have sex with their partner versus graphically describing the acts.
1:25:35	Did you feel the need to elaborate on this position out of fear of someone leaking your use of this language in private?	Destiny replies that he has no worries regarding potential leaks, and explains that this is the stance he has had on language for several years. He continues, arguing that the only reason this is now up for debate is because he has a "whole new group of people" attacking him. Destiny concludes by stating the two areas he polices are, how people vote and how people act in public.
1:31:58	Hasan reiterates his prior question, asking Destiny if he believes announcing his use of edgy-language in private to the public may undermine his position on edgy-language in public.	Destiny explains that there is not likely genuinely racist people out there who stopped using racist language because of his point of view.
1:41:44	Hasan asks for Destiny to share a joke he would share in private using the n-word.	Destiny provides two different examples: A South Park joke involving Jeopardy. The story Donald Glover's friend tells him in a show. He explains that all these jokes lose their impact if the racial term isn't used.

Following the last question, the exchange takes a turn as Hasan accuses Destiny of emboldening alt-right rhetoric and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes great issue with this framing, and informs Hasan that his debate opponents(primarily Kormantine and Cole), have routinely showcased a poor faith engagement with the topic and overall rude behavior to himself and members of the panel.

Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Hasan

1:19:3 Hasan joins the stream, and sees Destiny involved in a heated exchange with Kormantine on the definition of "black". 1:21:03 Mindwaves gives Hasan some time to speak. During that time, Hasan is given the opportunity to ask Destiny some questions. Hasan and Destiny have a light-hearted exchange. 1:22:17 After yet another heated exchange between Destiny and Kormantine, Hasan compliments Kormantine on his "incredible [debate] performance". Hasan goes on to laude Kormantine for his debate performance, and informs him he has not lost the debate despite losing his cool. 1:23:04 Hasan asks Destiny why he doesn't want people to say the n-word in public. Destiny responds that he believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs. 1:24:15 After Hasan asks Bastiat what his political affiliation, Bastiat proclaims himself to be a neoliberal. Destiny laughs at this proclamation, and welcomes his "liberal brother". 1:31:58 Hasan reiterates his second question. 1:32:37 Hasan asserts that genuinely racist individuals may feel emboldened by Destiny's position and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes issue with this, and argues his opponents have been the inflammatory ones. 1:33:46 Hasan informs Destiny that he has no way of empathizing with Kormantine's position on the subject. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private. 1:35:12 Hasan states that while the context in which the n-word is stated is important, saying you use the word "all the time" in private arguably eliminates the context. Hasan goes on to point to logs of Destiny using the word in DGG: "There are logs of Destiny using the n-word in wayhs we are exactly thinking of him using it". Destiny counters that his use of the word in dgg was at a time when he considered the chatroom to be a relatively closed space, and that he has changed on his stance on using the word on his platform. Destiny continues, asserting that other content creators(Badbunny) with more egregious usages of the word than him have been given a past, while he has been placed under much scrutiny despite the breadth of his progressive work. 1:36:54 Hasan jokes that he has never defended Badbunny outside of the time she groped him. 1:37:42 Pxie reiterates her belief that Destiny's stating his use of the word in private to the public is counterproductive. The two deliberate for some time. 1:41:02 Hasan asserts a particular image in most individual's minds occurs when they think about two white guys saying the n-word in private. Hasan goes on to remark that it is unlikely Destiny is saying the n-word around his black friends, as his one very public black friend(Trihex), had recently taken issue with Destiny's position on the subject. Destiny questions why Hasan would bring this up, and argues Hasan would walk back his entire argument if he could show Hasan a black friend he has said the word in private to. Destiny then accuses Hasan of trying to "score brownie points". 1:43:08 Hasan questions Destiny's use of the n-word even in joking contexts, asserting it is still problematic. Destiny counters that there are several examples of jokes that necessitate the use of a slur. 1:43:36 Destiny requests for Hasan to acknowledge that there are funny circumstances in which the n-word can be used.

TheSerfs WIP

TheSerfs AKA Lance had a relatively passive engagement with the topic throughout most of the panel.

Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Hasan