JonTron

Jonathan 'JonTron' Jafari

Jonathan Aryan Jafari, also known as JonTron, is an American YouTuber, comedian, and media reviewer.

On Stream appearance and Controversy WIP

Destiny debates JonTron on immigration and assimilation

JonTron agreeing to come on stream for a debate with Destiny(the suspended user). Also featuring 4THOT.

Debate kickstart

On March 12, 2017 JonTron tweeted out a defense to a quote from Iowa Representative Steve King, who tweeted in regards to the United States' immigration policy: "We can't restore our civilization with somebody else's babies." JonTron's initial defense of the tweet was the following: "Wow, how scandalous, Steve King doesn't want his country invaded by people who have contempt for his culture and people! NAZI!!!". JonTron would go beyond that initial defense for some time(4 hours) and soon crossed paths with Destiny on twitter. After some back and forth JonTron eventually agreed to come onto Destiny's stream for a debate.

Debate intro

The debate occurred on Destiny's channel and went on for one hour and eighteen minutes. As the conversation begins, JonTron checks his mic, cracks some jokes, and even compliments Destiny on his looks. Destiny explains his interest in "cultural issues", mentioning its current popularity and his ongoing discussions on his stream, referencing Brexit and Trump's presidency as examples. He further notes that the "gaming" community often leans a particular way on these topics, especially after Gamergate, and suggests that JonTron seems to have gravitated towards that perspective, specifically on immigration and cultural matters. Destiny then expresses his concern about JonTron holding such a viewpoint, especially considering his vast audience. JonTron responds, saying he doesn't find his perspective troubling. In fact, he's more concerned that people find it troubling in the first place, as he does not find such a perspective to be very controversial. He goes on to say that "staying on the fence", and "avoiding conflict" in such polarizing times is pointless.

JonTron discusses identity politics, the left, and the impact of historical racism on modern day individuals

Destiny challenges JonTron's perspective on cultural issues, particularly the defense of "American Culture." Destiny notes that some arguments he's seen, seemingly in line with JonTron's stance, essentially boil down to preserving a majority white culture. JonTron, however, denies this being his "core argument," suggesting instead that nations shouldn't voluntarily change their demographics, emphasizing the importance of demographics in identifying societal issues. Destiny counters by emphasizing the U.S.'s diverse history and its lack of a single ethnic background, pointing to historical prejudice against groups like the Irish and Italians. JonTron downplays this historical discrimination, asserting that the U.S. is fundamentally European in its heritage. As the conversation evolves, Destiny underscores the historical context, noting how definitions of "American" have expanded over time to be more inclusive, and highlights the role of identity politics throughout American history.

The dialogue further deepens with Destiny addressing systemic issues affecting minority groups, pointing out the disproportionate incarceration rates of African Americans and gender imbalances in certain professions. JonTron retorts that such arguments implicitly blame white individuals and dismisses the agency of the affected groups. Destiny, however, stresses the significance of historical legal discriminations like Jim Crow laws in shaping the present situation, emphasizing that some of these injustices are not as distant as perceived. While JonTron attempts to shift the conversation to global issues and the challenges of ethnic diversity in Europe, Destiny steers it back to the U.S., expressing concern about blaming disadvantaged groups for their current plight. The exchange concludes with Destiny emphasizing the importance of acknowledging systemic issues to address them effectively, while JonTron defends his stance by highlighting concerns about demographic changes in the U.S.

JonTron debates the agency of minority groups

JonTron questions the need to aid minority groups, implying they lack agency, while Destiny emphasizes mutual societal support, believing it uplifts the entire U.S. JonTron blames the left for division by spotlighting societal issues. When JonTron references Japan's model, Destiny highlights Japan's racial issues. JonTron's concerns about white demographic preservation lead to Destiny referencing JonTron's mixed heritage and changing identity perceptions. JonTron mentions a DNC representative's controversial remarks; Destiny recognizes their issue but stresses listening to minorities. Both note the polarized political discourse, with JonTron seeing figures like Trump as a response to left's identity politics.

JonTron refusing to address the self-avowed Neo-Nazis backing his position

At 16:35 the conversation turns to a discussion on Nazis and guilt by association. JonTron asserts that Nazis from the 1930s have no relevance to the current discussion. However, Destiny notes that some of JonTron's Twitter supporters identify as Neo-Nazis. While JonTron denies ever promoting NeoNazi views, Destiny questions the optics of having significant white supremacist support on racial issues. JonTron dismisses Destiny's labels as derogatory and provocatively offers his "whiteness", likening himself to an "Uncle Tom". Destiny redirects the conversation, praising the significance of a Half Iranian discussing American belonging and highlighting evolving national identities over time.

JonTron discusses his belief in the lack of sustainability of a multicultural society

JonTron believes if even one American citizen doesn't see themselves as American, there's a problem. He also expresses skepticism about the sustainability of a completely multicultural society without a demographic majority. When questioned by Destiny, a heated JonTron references the tumult of the previous 4-8 years, accusing Destiny of gaslighting. Destiny counters, asserting that it's JonTron's side that exaggerates unrest in Europe. JonTron fervently insists riots are happening in Europe, using the "boiling frog" analogy to illustrate creeping issues. Destiny counters that one could use this argument about various topics, including Trump's authoritarian tendencies. He mentions that the world is currently in a peaceful era, which JonTron predicts won't last. Destiny again claims JonTron's side exaggerates threats like ISIS and crime rates. JonTron admits potential exaggeration on both sides but stands by his views.

JonTron attempts to dispel the "myth" of historical racism towards Irish and Italian Americans

Eventually in the debate, JonTron expresses skepticism about the historical claim that Irish and Italians weren't considered white, dismissing it as a myth. Destiny, trying to provide evidence, references the existence of ethnic slurs against white people and reminds JonTron of the "Irish need not apply" signs once prevalent in the U.S., emphasizing the discrimination faced by these groups. In a controversial remark, JonTron insinuates that maybe the discrimination faced by early Irish and Italian immigrants was due to their behavior, hinting they had "undesirable traits," using the Italian mob as an example. Destiny counters, pointing out the eventual successful integration of these immigrant groups into American society and argues against restricting immigration now based on such views. JonTron feels modern immigrant integration is lacking, seeing a racial divide deepening, particularly after a recent election he views as racially divisive.

JonTron discusses Mexico "importing crime"

JonTron links Mexicans immigrating to the U.S. with "importing crime," asserting he'd feel similarly about any crime-committing racial group. Destiny questions JonTron's fixation on whites remaining the demographic majority. JonTron suggests whites aren't allowed to discuss their anticipated demographic decline. Destiny denies any looming threat to whites. JonTron implies there's displacement of whites akin to historical Native American displacement. He presents an Infowars chart projecting whites as a minority by 2042, implying it would be controversial if whites were colonizing minority countries. Destiny clarifies immigrants aren't colonizing but legally migrating. As JonTron tries to compare white colonization in Africa to immigrants establishing "ethnic enclaves" in the U.S., Destiny underscores the patriotism of many Mexican Americans. JonTron believes some aim to annex parts of the U.S. back to Mexico. Destiny then frames the argument, questioning if JonTron believes immigrants endure severe risks just to attempt such an annexation. JonTron declines to speculate on motives. They then spar over the distinction between speculating on actions and "stating facts."

JonTron debates the ability of certain ethnic groups/minorities to integrate and the impacts of a diminishing white population

Destiny redirects the conversation to the implications of demographic shifts in the U.S., querying JonTron on the significance of white people becoming a minority. JonTron, with hesitation, says it "shouldn't matter" but stresses immigrants should assimilate and not originate from "incompatible places." Destiny champions America's unique diversity and integration capability, touting its economic and global influence.

JonTron references the U.S.'s shift from 92% white in 1950 to 60% currently as an unparalleled change. He questions why white concerns about this "displacement" are labeled racist. Destiny challenges the term "displacement" since no forced relocations are occurring. JonTron labels this "soft-displacement" and posits that once minorities become majorities, they won't prioritize "white American's interests."

Destiny seeks clarification on "White American interests." JonTron argues a political dichotomy exists between white Americans and first-generation Mexicans. He claims the former lean libertarian, while the latter favor government assistance. Disagreeing, Destiny mentions red (Republican) states' reliance on federal aid and highlights the fiscal contributions of blue (Democrat) states/cities. JonTron insinuates southern states' higher non-white populations might be influencing their financial reliance, laughing it off. Destiny points out the inconsistency in JonTron's argument, noting if high non-white population states lean Republican, it contradicts JonTron's claim about minority voting behavior. Caught off-guard, JonTron acknowledges the contradiction but transitions the discussion to emphasize America's varied voting patterns, suggesting majority-white populations might be voting against their interests.

JonTron and Destiny debate about Trump's messaging

Destiny asks what these "white-interests" that are voted against include, to which JonTron points to media outlets calling Trump voters racist and that Trump is simply stating that "maybe we should keep America the way that it was". Destiny then asks JonTron what type of America he wants to return to in the phrase "Make America Great Again". Despite JonTron attemping to handwave the query as a "silly question", Destiny continues to press him. Eventually, JonTron clarifies that he wants to preserve America, not revert to a prior state. Destiny presses JonTron once again, asking him to clarify what he means by preserve, and points to JonTron previously taking issue with whites becoming a minority in America.

JonTron discusses the disproportionate amount of crime commited by immigrants and people of color

Destiny looking on in dismay as JonTron denies the existence of systematic racism

JonTron makes the claim that "this whole melting pot thing requires that they(immigrants/minorities) become part of the great whole and don't form enclaves..." Destiny counters by highlighting how the United States has successfully integrated a multitude of diverse cultures, citing the vast array of cultural foods, music, and the diverse range of people one encounters in the country. He then questions JonTron about the sources informing his viewpoint that America is deteriorating because of immigration. JonTron accuses Destiny of misrepresenting his words, and replies "there is an absolute disproportionate amount of crime committed to whites by non-whites, there's no arguing that, that's just FBI statisics..." JonTron further argues that white individuals should be able to discuss this issue, but they are often labeled racist(by people like Destiny) if they do. Destiny points out that the best way to reduce crime would be to deport all poor people, as poor whites commit much crime, disproportionately compared to wealthier whites. JonTron immediately responds that this is "just not true", but later agrees after some debate that it's likely true in relative terms. Destiny asks JonTron if he thinks Poor blacks commit more crimes relative to wealthier black people, to which JonTron agrees, but adds then caveat that wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites and implores Destiny to research it. Destiny is floored by this statement and isn't sure how to respond by such an extreme position. He asks his chat for assistance in finding backing for such a claim, and laughs at the sheer absurdity of the situation.

"Do you think that poor blacks probably commit more crime, relatively to wealthier black people? -Destiny
"Wealthy blacks, they do, wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact, heh, look it up" -JonTron

Destiny searches for evidence supporting JonTron's assertion but instead comes across an article indicating that poor white children have a lower likelihood of incarceration than wealthy black kids. JonTron quickly brushes off the article as mere "conjecture" and denies the insinuation of systemic racism in the judicial system. Destiny, however, argues that the court system is indeed racially biased, emphasizing that, even when accounting for socioeconomic variables, black individuals receive harsher sentences for the same crimes. JonTron states his disagreement with this claim, providing no backing, Destiny is unable to put words together in response and accidently knocks his microphone.

JonTron discusses the implications of white people becoming a minority

Destiny eventually reiterates a prior question: "Why is it so bad if white people become a minority?" JonTron responds that no racial group would want to become a minority in their own country, but eventually concedes he is not sure how to answer the question. JonTron then attempts to reverse the question back at Destiny: "Why is it so bad if white people remain a majority?" Destiny quickly retorts that the country would be excluding potential labor, and talent in order to remain the white majority that JonTron sought. JonTron assumes from this that Destiny wants white people to become a minority in the "end game", and accuses Destiny of projecting an ideology of nonstop immigration from the third world.

JonTron takes issue with Mexicans bringing their culture to the United States

JonTron uses an example of a Mexican immigrant moving to the United States because they view it as better than Mexico. He argues that if a significant number of such individuals illegally cross the border, those who express concerns risk being labeled as racist. He further suggests that if the culture in both countries becomes indistinguishable due to this migration, the same immigrant might become frustrated by the lack of differentiation between the two countries. Destiny then asks why would these individuals come to Mexico if they were happy with their country to begin with? To which JonTron replies: "because of better handouts? A lot of them are on welfare you understand". Destiny takes issue with this and points to the many Mexican migrants who come to the United States and are some of the hardest working, least lazy individuals. JonTron laughs this off, accuses Destiny of virtue signaling, and claims "a lot of them are going to commit crimes, the Salvadorians are going to create gangs..." Destiny responds that immigration is not even a predictor of crime in the United States, and points to more meaningful predictors such as single parent households and socioeconomic position. He then suggests JonTron focus on these instead of immigration.

JonTron makes the claim that a lot of these "immigrants only migrate to the United States with the sole purpose of making money and sending it back home" to their origin country, implying these individuals have no long term investment in the country. He further contends that these immigrants aren't just filling unwanted jobs, but rather, they are displacing white workers by saturating the job market with low-wage labor, and altogether decreasing the standard of living. Destiny takes issue with this claim and points out that if a country brings in people that are willing to work for less money, this implies the cost to produce a product decreases, resulting in giving domestic companies the ability to sell their goods for less. JonTron laughs this argument off as well, stating "yeah sure you can sell out your society for a quick buck". Destiny then implies this would result in a world with "$3,000" iPhones. In response, JonTron states that "mass-consumerism" isn't the solution to societal issues. Destiny counters by sarcastically suggesting that JonTron believes reducing the standard of living is the way to address these problems.

Destiny asks JonTron several times to explain why he takes issue with whites becoming a minority

Destiny staring off into space, stunned as JonTron talks once again about European immigration shortly after handwaving every fact Destiny provided.

Destiny asks JonTron why it would be problematic for white people to become a minority. Instead of answering, JonTron says, "listen this is just not how things work in reality..." and shifts the discussion to the war in Yugoslavia, hinting it resulted from unchecked immigration. Destiny objects to the European focus and doubts that all immigration leads to civil war. JonTron claims Destiny relies on an "old paradigm" and lacks data to back his arguments. When Destiny asks him to identify any factual errors, JonTron veers back to Europe's alleged immigration issues to draw parallels with the US. Surprised, Destiny presses JonTron to identify factual inaccuracies. JonTron accuses Destiny of deflecting, prompting Destiny to counter that JonTron frequently changes topics during their discussion.

JonTron questions Destiny's dismissal of his European examples. Destiny replies that JonTron oversimplifies and misinterprets the distinct immigration challenges of each European country. JonTron sees a common trend in these countries, stating mass immigration from countries that don't value western liberal ideals will impact the host culture. Destiny counters by asking how western countries maintain their values despite this influx and challenges JonTron to pinpoint Mexican immigrants opposing Civil Rights. JonTron reverts to European examples, but Destiny insists on focusing on the US, emphasizing that Europe's challenges differ. He notes that the term "white people" doesn't apply in Europe. JonTron thinks this validates his tribalism argument. Destiny retorts that in the US, various white ethnicities have largely blended, diminishing previous tribal distinctions.

Destiny, tired of JonTron's Europe references, explains why the two continents differ on immigration issues. He points out the US's unique geographic and political situation, contrasting it with the UK's lack of major immigration challenges and Germany's economic stability despite accepting many refugees. He emphasizes that Nordic countries have their own unique situations and reiterates that European issues cannot be collectively compared to America's. JonTron, in a surprising move, likens the difference between Europe and America to the colors Cyan and Blue, implying similarities. Taken aback, Destiny laughs at the analogy. When he recovers, he challenges JonTron to provide crime statistics for refugees in the US. JonTron dismisses Destiny as "impossible." Destiny responds with a statistic, pointing out the low crime rate among refugees and criticizing narratives like Breitbart's that exaggerate the country's issues.

Destiny probes JonTron on why he believes it would be detrimental for white people to become a minority. JonTron retorts that he's covered this and suggests nobody wishes to become a minority in their own country, pressing Destiny on his view. Destiny underscores that American identity goes beyond race and expresses bewilderment at JonTron's persistent focus on racial quotas. While JonTron concurs on the broader definition of an American, he contends that the current trajectory is to admit more people from "third world" countries to rectify "sins of the white past" until white people become a minority.

Challenging JonTron's views, Destiny questions why California, with its high Mexican immigrant population, boasts the world's sixth-largest economy. JonTron admits uncertainty. Destiny attributes California's economic success to factors like labor supply and complementary roles, referencing unanimous economist consensus on immigration benefiting economies. JonTron likens these economists to "pollsters" who incorrectly forecasted Hillary Clinton's 2016 win. Destiny dismisses this analogy, emphasizing the strict standards required for economist credentials.

The two rehash their previous identity politics conversation for some time, Destiny once again points to the fact that a half Iranian half Hungarian is defending whites, and points to the variety of multicultural centers in the United States that haven't fallen to chaos. Destiny asks JonTron: "Do you think it's okay to keep a country from progressing as much as it can in order to maintain a homogenous racial identity?". JonTron agrees with this characterization of his arguments, and cites Japan as an example.

JonTron discusses Assimilation and the gene pool

At 1:02:20, JonTron decides to steer the conversation towards a discussion on assimilation. Destiny walks JonTron through a line of questioning, and JonTron proceeds to offer some controversial answers. In one instance, Destiny poses a hypothetical scenario: if white people were to become a minority in a country where brown people assimilated seamlessly, would there still be an issue? JonTron expresses concern over these individuals integrating into the "gene pool." He goes on to argue that nations should regulate immigration rates to avoid a rapid "color shift" in their populations.

"What if whites became the minority but most brown people assimilated to the culture and became the majority?"-Destiny
"Well if they assimilated, they would enter the gene pool eventually, and would just... y'know..."-JonTron

Destiny reiterates the question, and JonTron is quick to agree that the assimilation of millions of "brown people" seamlessly into a population would be fine, and concedes to Destiny that white people becoming a minority would not be a bad thing. Because JonTron concedes this point, Destiny points out the focus should not be on restricting immigration, but enhancing methods of integration and assimilation. JonTron replies that Destiny clearly has some moral ulterior motive. Destiny immediately clarifies, stating that his primary interest is in optimizing the success of a country and enhancing the opportunities for its residents to prosper.

"When I state this argument, it makes me sound like I have a problem with people who aren't white... I'm just talking about the ideal way to do immigration.. I'm just talking about the demographic shift, whites are expected to lay down and take it"- JonTron

JonTron discusses BLM

At 1:05:03 JonTron questions Destiny about the Black Lives Matter movement, following Destiny's mention of black individuals embracing American culture. Destiny clarifies that Black Lives Matter arose because of the unique challenges black Americans face and the movement's aim to address these issues. JonTron laughs, labeling Destiny's view as "utopian." While not contesting the goals of BLM, JonTron criticizes their methods, associating the movement with "extreme rioting." Destiny rebuts, underscoring that a majority within BLM condemn rioting and advocate for peaceful protest.

JonTron argues that BLM doesn't truly address key issues affecting black lives, particularly the high crime rates among young black males. Destiny questions the reasons behind this and, when JonTron is reluctant to elaborate, Destiny suggests this avoidance is why BLM exists. Destiny challenges JonTron's fear of making a racially insensitive statement. JonTron claims Destiny is trying to "entrap" him and suggests he should work for CNN. Destiny cites single-parent households and socioeconomic factors as reasons for the high crime rate. The debate returns to "white guilt". JonTron believes white people shouldn't feel guilty for past actions, while Destiny thinks white individuals should acknowledge historical injustices. JonTron accuses Destiny of trying to trap him in a racist comment and expresses frustration over the single-parent argument. Destiny again asks JonTron about the high crime rate among young black males, but JonTron continues to avoid the question.

After further discussion on whether or not racism towards Irish/Italian Americans existed in the past, JonTron eventually agrees with Destiny that discrimination is wrong and even asserts that western countries have managed to eliminate discrimination. Destiny disagrees, and prepares to give examples such as voter-id laws until JonTron decides to interject with the following: "People like me are supposed to listen to people like you chatter on about this 'oppression' in America, it doesn't exist dude, it doesn't exist, there's no oppression". After some minor further exchange on the topic, the two bid each other farewell and Destiny recaps the debate for an hour with his stream.

Aftermath of JonTron's debate with Destiny WIP

This conversation was quite the turning point in Destiny's streaming career, and cemented his position(for some time) as a "lefty" streamer willing to engage the right. Throughout the conversation, whenever Destiny presented a coherent logical argument, called JonTron out for a misstep, or cited a statistic, JonTron either derailed the conversation to a different topic or laughed off the questions/arguments. Those on the left lauded Destiny for his performance^{[citation needed ]}, while those on the right were hypercritical of Destiny's "debate tactics".^{[citation needed ]}

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