"I've never been more gaslit in my entire life..." - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More
On October 22, 2019 Destiny participated in a political panel hosted by MindWaves. The panel featured Hasan Piker, TheSerfsTV(AKA Lance), Pxie, Ahrelevant, Bastiat, Kormantine and Cole James Cash.[1][2]
Four topics were discussed during the panel, among these topics included a recent Canadian Election, usage of the n-word in private, the 2020 Democratic primary, and Mark Zuckerberg's secret meetings with Conservatives. The second topic, usage of the n-word in private, took up the bulk of the podcast's time and was by far the most tumultuous of the topics discussed. The fallout of this topic produced a meme, a manifesto, and resulted in Destiny and Hasan cutting ties with one another.
First topic: Canadian Elections
Following a brief introduction from each panelist regarding their political affiliations and streams, Mindwaves presented the first topic: What does each panelist believe will be the fallout of a recent Canadian Election? Bastiat, being of the opinion the election will likely be to the economic detriment of Canadians, argues the election has prevented the establishment of oil pipelines across the country. Kormantine takes issues with this, asserting that these pipelines would likely never have been established anyways as the Canadian government never received the consent of First Nations to establish such infrastructure, and repeatedly requests for Bastiat to stop arguing in hypotheticals. Bastiat counters that this argument is not hypothetical, points out that the land has already been set aside to lay such pipelines, and informs Kormantine that Trudeau had recently blocked a pipeline bill for $4.5 billion.
During the conversation, both Kormantine and Pxie claim that renewable energies are liable to take off some time in the not-to-distant future, thereby eliminating the country's need for fossil fuels and making any arguments for oil pipelines in the nation irrelevant. Destiny counters that such assertions are unfounded, and that anyone who suggests entirely replacing a nation's dependence on fossil fuels with renewable energies is unserious. Kormantine responds "I know you're not fucking talking right now... what do you know about my country?", to which Destiny sarcastically concedes that it may be possible that Canada has access to some secret alternative energies that nobody else in the world has. Kormantine goes on to assert that Canada is doing fine with their current exports, Destiny responds "doing fine isn't enough with everybody dawg". Before he can continue, Kormantine takes issue with Destiny's use of the word "dawg", and informs Destiny "you don't know me like that".
While this topic proved to be uneventful overall, it did provide a glimpse into the true motives of certain panelists participating in the discussion. Of note:
2:35 When prompted to provide an intro, Cole states that he runs the "ghetto-news-network" and represents the "gangsta-left". In defining the "gangsta-left", Cole explains that he "doesn't play nice" nor "engage in civility, and will "call [anyone] out for actin' foul".
10:31 When asked about his feelings about the Canadian Election, Cole explains that the election taught him that Canadians are "very friendly" about their racism. Kormantine agrees with this, caveating that this racism tends to diminish when "black folks" confront white people about this racism.
22:39 Cole requesting to move on to the next topic.
Given the apparent desire of some panelists(primarily Cole James Cash) to move on from the subject, the Election discussion only made up the first thirty minutes of the four hour panel.
1:05 Kormantine gives his intro, he describes himself as a Black Socialist.
2:35 Cole James Cash gives his intro. He explains that he runs the "ghetto-news-network" and represents the "gangsta-left". In defining the "gangsta-left", Cole explains that he "doesn't play nice" nor "engage in civility, and will "call [anyone] out for actin foul".
8:30 Lance describes the topic, explaining that a recent Canadian election was going to be a toss-up between conservative and liberals, and the liberals lost out. Kormantine chimes in and explains that the election was a resounding defeat for most parties involved(liberals losing 27 seats, conservatives gaining 32).
10:31 Cole chimes in, adding that the election taught him that Canadians are "very friendly" about their racism. Kormantine agrees with this, caveating that this racism tends to diminish when "black folks" confront white people about this racism.
11:38 Cole:"Being friendly, don't mean you're my fucking friend... That goes for some individuals in this stream... Being polite, and joking about certain shit that you know damn well you couldn't walk into a room full of people of color and joke like that, or say something like that... It's a whole lot of that."
12:34 Bastiat expresses how happy he is that Canadians were able to express their right to self-determination, and explains he is happy that the election has prevented the establishment of oil pipelines across Canada. He goes on to explain that as a result of this election, Canada will be forced to send their oil through the United States.
13:21 Pxie begins to chime in but is told to stop talking by Kormantine so he can get his point across. Kormantine argues that there are several reasons the oil pipelines can't move through the country outside of the ones provided by Bastiat. He explains that the oil pipelines would never have been established, given the lack of consent from first-nations.
18:22 Bastiat asserts that "pipelines in general are done in Canada". Kormantine once again argues that Bastiat is arguing in hypotheticals as the pipelines would never have been established to begin with, and Bastiat counters that the Trudeau had recently blocked a pipeline bill for $4.5 billion.
19:37 Mindwaves asks for Lance's perspective on the topic. Lance explains he doesn't know anything about this subject and wanted to talk about the election. Destiny chimes in that energy is important, and Bastiat adds that Canada's economic future for pipelines has been terminated.
20:55 Kormantine adds that Canada has recently invested in solar and wind energy.
21:20 Pxie asks for some clarification, explaining that she initially thought Canada was a service-based economy. Kormantine and Ahrelvant argue this seems to be true, to which Pxie adds that such a pipeline would not likely have a large impact on Canada's economy. Destiny adds that pain felt in an economy, would not be felt "all over" an economy. He explains that this pain is typically concentrated in specific areas, and the pain in those areas would be highly visible. He concludes that the pain in shutting down exports to oil, regardless how small that sector may be, would likely cause very visible pain to that area of the economy.
22:39 Cole sarcastically responds to Destiny, arguing they should "move the fuck on from this shit and get to the next topic". Kormantine adds he would have prefered to have this discussion with people who were more aware of Canada's situation.
23:23 Destiny argues that it is ridiculous for Pxie or Kormantine to suggest that Canada should replace all of it's fossil fuels with clean energy. Kormantine responds "I know you're not fucking talking right now... what do you know about my country?" Destiny sarcastically concedes that it may be possible that Canada has access to some secret alternative energies that nobody else in the world has.
24:02 Kormantine asserts that Canada is doing fine with their current exports, Destiny responds "doing fine isn't enough with everybody dawg". Kormantine takes issue with Destiny's use of the word "dawg", and informs Destiny "you don't know me like that".
26:03 Mindwaves asks the panel what other negative consequences may occur as a result of this election. Kormantine responds first, arguing the situation is not bad overall. He notes that the biggest fight to take place following the election relates to immigration policy.
Second topic: N-Word in private
I gotta take a break from the insanity. Holy shit. I've never been gaslight so fucking hard before in a conversation. Like, oh my god, fucking Hasan and that J. Cole dude, and Andre, like all in here, like fucking riling on me so fucking hard. Making it insanely fucking personal, ad-homing the fuck out of me.... Holy shit, I have never been gaslight so fucking hard in a conversation in my fucking life. This is insane. I don't even know if the 1v5 conversations gaslight me this fucking hard. Holy fucking shit.
The topic list disseminated to panel members prior to the podcast. Of note, the list contains no reference to the "n-word in private" topic.
Following the uneventful conclusion to the discussion on Canadian Elections, Mindwaves introduces the next topic: Usage of the n-word in private. The topic was allegedly introduced following requests from both Cole and Kormantine prior to the beginning of the podcast, as they were both seemingly eager to confront Destiny on the subject.[3][4] Upon introducing the topic, several members of the panel, Destiny included, can be heard laughing. Of note, Cole James Cash can be heard verbally celebrating the topic's announcement, and Kormantine states "that's the only one I came here for... let's fuckin' go".
Destiny argues that if one is not racist, is in a private setting, and is among individuals they know are not racist, making edgy jokes for shock value does not necessarily make them racist. Destiny posits a healthy engagement with such edgy-jokes is possible, much like it is possible for individuals to engage in violent video games without becoming violent themselves.[5]
Throughout the podcast, several of Destiny's fellow panelists question why Destiny would make his stance on the n-word in private known to the public. They argue stating as much would negatively influence individuals who would otherwise be unable to separate the "shock-value" element of such humor from the "racial-element", and thereby causing these individuals to become racist. [6][7] In response, Destiny contends that individuals in his audience who consume the array of progressive-orientated and inclusive topics he typically discusses, would not typically fall in the category of individuals taking such jokes beyond their shock value.[8]
Destiny's position timestamps
1:51:36 Destiny states his main principle is maximizing for his own preferences through altruistic behavior. He explain that somebody informing him that they're uncomfortable with things stated in private, their comfort stops where his privacy begins.
1:55:14 Destiny explains the only two things he's concerned about is what people saying in public and how they vote.
1:55:47 Hasan states that Destiny's usage of the n-word in private will likely seep into his public life. Destiny responds that he only responds to this when pressured by individuals to discuss the topic. He explains it was originally discussed with conservatives to discuss acceptable behavior, and is now being used against him by left-leaning individuals. Destiny goes on to accuse the individuals on this panel of trying to dunk on him for "optics".
2:22:28 Destiny explains how one could have a vetting process for friends to say edgy-words in private around
2:39:59 Destiny states it is weird for individuals to question what he says in his private time.
2:42:59 Destiny explains there are some times where saying the n-word in private does have some harm, and explains when doing so would be problematic(e.g. saying it around a racist individual).
2:47:53 Hasan attempts to restate Destiny's position: "Under certain circumstances, consenting adults should be allowed to say the n-word in private.." Destiny cuts him off at this point, and informs Hasan that his position has always been about edgy jokes in private vs in public. Destiny goes on to lament the tendency of Hasan, and the other individuals on the panel, for making the argument purely about the n-word.
2:59:10 Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him.
3:02:51 Destiny points out that the two "pro-private language people"(himself and Ahrelevant) were the only ones who allowed Pxie to speak, meanwhile Kormantine, Cole, and Hasan took every opportunity to shut her down. Hasan accuses Destiny of being hypocritical.
Destiny vs. Cole James Cash
Heading into the topic, the initial discussions were quite contentious. To start, Destiny and Cole spend some time holding a fairly unproductive exchange between one another. Following this exchange, Mindwaves would go on to criticize Cole and Kormantine for requesting the topic be placed on the list, and directly chides Cole for being inflammatory. Exchanges like this occurred several times during the first hour of the podcast:
Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are".
Cole implicitly threatens Destiny, and asks if he's going to TwitchCon. Destiny mocks Cole for this threat, and accuses him of being a wannabe gangster and cringe.
Ahrelevant provides his input on the topic, asserting he is fine with Destiny saying the word in private. Cole responds that Ahrelevant needs to "spend time with [his] own people". Mindwaves steps in, and ridicules Cole of accusing Ahrelevant of "not being black enough" to have an opinion.
Cole interjects shortly after Destiny accuses Kormantine of engaging in a non-sequitur to inform Destiny that Kormantine did not engage in the logical fallacy. Destiny responds by asking Cole to define what a non-sequitur is, Cole is unable to respond, and Destiny requests for Cole to "shut the fuck up".
On the assertions made by Cole that Destiny deemed warranted a response, Destiny informs Cole that he makes jokes in private with friends he knows are not racist. Destiny continues, explaining to Cole that he has no right to dictate what is said in those private conversations.
Throughout the duration of Cole's short-lived time on the podcast, he is repeatedly scolded by Mindwaves and several other members of the panel for the brash and brazen
method he went about discussing the presented topic with Destiny, especially given that the topic was suggested by Cole himself. Several of these interactions between Cole and Destiny typically involved him implicitly threatening Destiny in some manner, accusing Destiny of never stepping foot outside, requesting for Destiny to take a shower, or stating Destiny lacks empathy. This was routinely met with Destiny accusing Cole of being an "internet tough guy", and mocking Cole for the lack of meaningful contributions to the topic. Furthermore, any earnest response Destiny attempted to give to Cole was routinely interrupted by Cole himself. This continues for some time before Cole exits the podcast in frustration after being repeatedly warned by Mindwaves to engage in the discussion meaningfully. Shortly following Cole's departure, Hasan takes his stead. Later on in the discussion, Kormantine, TheSerfs, and Hasan would go on to claim that Cole left following the abusive behavior exhibited by Destiny and MindWaves during the panel.[citation needed]
28:49 Mindwaves offers Destiny the opportunity to speak on the topic first, and jests that his fellow black panelists may take issue with his position(Destiny being of the opinion that usage of the n-word in private should be permitted). When Destiny responds "ya think?" Kormantine questions why Destiny would respond with such a statement, and Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are".
29:06 Cole asks Destiny when the last time he showered was. Mindwaves and Destiny question how that pertains to the presented topic.
29:28 Cole directly asks Destiny why he refuses to acknowledge being racist. Destiny, posits a question of his own in response: "Who the fuck are you to tell me what I can say in my free time?"
29:57 Cole informs Destiny he is displaying "a lot of Yakubian energy right now, and once again requests for Destiny to admit to being racist. Before Destiny and Cole can continue, Mindwaves interrupts the two and criticizes the lack of productive arguments being brought forth by Cole and Kormatine. Mindwaves goes on to criticize the two for requesting the topic being placed on the list, and directly chides Cole for being inflammatory.
30:54 Cole asks Destiny how he addresses his position with other black individuals, and how he can claim to not be racist. Destiny responds that he makes jokes in private with his friends that he wouldn't make publically. Destiny goes on to inform Cole he has no right to dictate what he says in private conversations.
31:28 Cole implicitly threatens Destiny, and asks if he's going to TwitchCon. Destiny mocks Cole for this threat, and accuses him of being a wannabe gangster and cringe.
32:22 Ahrelevant provides his input on the topic, asserting he is fine with Destiny saying the word in private. Cole responds that Ahrelevant needs to "spend time with [his] own people". Mindwaves steps in, and ridicules Cole of accusing Ahrelevant of "not being black enough" to have an opinion.
32:50 Pxie chimes in, and asks Destiny why he believes saying the n-word isn't racist. Destiny responds that as a public figure, he does not platform language that is harmful or further entrenches groups of people. Destiny continues, explaining that when in private and surrounded by individuals he is sure are not racist, there are "edgy" jokes involving racist terms he would be comfortable making(e.g. jokes from a George Carlin Skit, or a Boondocks episode). Pxie retorts that Destiny saying he states these jokes in private to the public, defeats the purpose of Destiny's stance on racist words. Destiny counters that he never repeats these "private jokes" to the public, as such, it would not nullify any public stance he takes on such terms.
34:34 Cole informs Destiny that he is "not built" to be stating such statements publicly as his "heart pumps Kool-Aid".
35:06 Mindwaves gives Kormantine the opportunity to speak. Kormantine first asks for Mindwaves's name, Mindwaves responds "Ian", and Kormantine asks "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Destiny retorts that Kormantine has described all discussions surrounding political issues.
36:48 Pxie remarks that Destiny does not typically debate to change individuals minds, but is mainly trying to suey the audience. Destiny agrees.
37:20 Kormantine asks if anyone on the panel "studies this"(sociology, history, etc) for a living. Cole responds in the affirmative, and Kormantine asserts that he has engaged in such studies professionally as well. Kormantine goes on to point to a study where it was discovered a real social harm arises when individuals sharing/overhearing racial jokes in private. Kormantine goes on to point out that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless.
40:14 Cole provides a follow-up to Kormantine's response. In his follow-up, Cole clarifies his prior assertion that Destiny does not leave the house, explaining that Destiny would never "keep that same energy in a room full of black folks". Cole continues, explaining that the "triggered" demeanor conveyed by Destiny is indicative of his underlying racist thoughts. Destiny cuts Cole off before he can continue, and counters that Cole has in fact been "triggered" throughout the duration of the podcast.
41:39 Cole asserts that Destiny treating "the one black person who tried to appeal to [his] humanity" in such a manner, is once again indicative of Destiny's lack of empathy.
42:21 Mindwaves cuts off Cole and allows Destiny to elucidate on his position further. Destiny goes on to criticize both Cole and Kormantine, accuses the two of "being down everybody's throat" the entire podcast and being "insanely aggressive with no provocation".
43:03 Kormantine denies ever being aggressive during the podcast. Destiny goes on to continue with his assertion, but is cut off as Kormantine states "as your father I demand that you address me with respect, I have no been aggressive". Destiny then asserts that he is "getting aids" from this conversation.
43:51 Bastiat states that any value to be had in this conversation was lost by Cole being overtly aggressive and unproductive.
46:24 As Destiny is explaining an analogy to Kormantine, Cole interjects and mocks Destiny. Destiny goes on to chide Cole for not contributing in any meaningful way to the conversation. Mindwaves shares this sentiment and requests for Cole to refrain from speaking if he has no worthwhile thoughts to share. Mindwaves continues, questioning why Cole would request the topic be brought forth if he would be unable to hold a discussion on it without getting worked up. Destiny agrees, and suggests that Cole take a coffee/smoke break. Cole responds by suggesting Destiny should take a shower.
55:32 Cole interjects shortly after Destiny accuses Kormantine of engaging in a non-sequitur, to inform Destiny that Kormantine did not engage in the logical fallacy. Destiny responds by asking Cole to define what a non-sequitur is, Cole is unable to respond, and Destiny requests for Cole to "shut the fuck up".
56:11 Cole repeatedly calls Destiny a bad person. Mindwaves later tells Cole to shut the fuck up, and requests for him to "actually add" to the conversation.
1:02:03 Cole exits the panel in frustration, calling this topic "bullshit". Mindwaves becomes irate following Cole's departure, describing how Cole repeatedly asked for the topic to be discussed.
1:21:54 Kormantine accuses Destiny of lacking the capacity to listen.
In comparison to Cole James Cash, Kormantine took a relatively more subtle approach in his criticisms of Destiny's position. Kormantine's primary argument being that several studies have proven a real social harm arises from individuals sharing/overhearing racial-charged jokes in private. He contends that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless.
Cole James Cash advertising his appearance on the Big Brain Podcast to confront Destiny alongside Kormantine.[9]
Although Kormantine initially seemed open to discussing the subject, his argumentative tactics made panelists feel like they were being "talked at" rather than engaged in a genuine conversation.[10] Tactics such as appeals to his own authority, requesting for only black members of the panel be permitted to speak on the subject, interrupting individuals, and an overall questionable engagement with several of the analogies/hypotheticals posited, were oftentimes met with reprehension by Destiny and many of the other panelists.
The most controversial moment of the panel occurs following Kormantine's attempt at having a discussion moment with fellow African American panelist Ahrelevant. Upon discovering that Ahrelevant shares Destiny's perspective on edgy language(including the n-word) in private contexts, Kormantine informs Ahrelevant he is not black enough to stand by Civil Rights protestors or hold the conversation.[11] Following this statement, Destiny temporarily cut his audio from the podcast and stated the following to his stream:
I'm actually so insanely fucking triggered on this podcast. I actually can't take it. This dude is like the biggest fucking piece of shit in the whole world. Holy shit. This guy literally fucking throws around the fact that he's black and gives him authority to talk. I try like really hard not to do like the horseshoe theory thing, but this is literally like... what Candace Owens argues against. That like somebody like this would exist. Would draw on black people to be like "oh he supports this argument he's black!" But as soon as the black person disagrees he'll be like "Oh you know... well like now you're bullshit"... When the last black guy was here, and he was acting crazy, this guy is like "Oh he's black he's got a good reason for it". But now that another black guy is here and disagrees with him: "Oh well this black guy? Your blackness doesn't matter, you didn't read what I did".
28:49 Mindwaves offers Destiny the opportunity to speak on the topic first, and jests that his fellow black panelists may take issue with his position(Destiny being of the opinion that usage of the n-word in private should be permitted). When Destiny responds "ya think?" Kormantine questions why Destiny would respond with such a statement, and Cole requests for Destiny to "Look at the camera when you speak boy". Destiny retorts: "Don't call me boy mother fucker I don't know who the fuck you are".
35:06 Mindwaves gives Kormantine the opportunity to speak. Kormantine first asks for Mindwaves's name, Mindwaves responds "Ian", and Kormantine asks "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Destiny retorts that Kormantine has described all discussions surrounding political issues.
37:20 Kormantine asks if anyone on the panel "studies this"(sociology, history, etc) for a living. Cole responds in the affirmative, and Kormantine asserts that he has engaged in such studies professionally as well. Kormantine goes on to point to a study where it was discovered a real social harm arises when individuals sharing/overhearing racial jokes in private. Kormantine goes on to point out that several white individuals in America tend to not have African Americans in their social groups, and as such, nobody to inform these individuals to not make such racially charged jokes. He continues, pointing out that this occurs even with white people who do have black people in their friends groups. He provides the example of Destiny's ending of his friendship with Trihex over his decision to use the n-word in private, and accuses Destiny of being racist/emotionless.
43:03 Kormantine denies ever being aggressive during the podcast. Destiny goes on to continue with his assertion, but is cut off as Kormantine states "as your father I demand that you address me with respect, I have no been aggressive". Destiny then asserts that he is "getting aids" from this conversation.
44:35 Destiny apologizes to Kormantine for being aggressive earlier, and attempts to address Kormantine's assertion. As Destiny begins to explain, Kormatine cuts him off and firmly asserts that every study he had parsed through stated that individuals who say racial slurs in private tend to develop racist thoughts.
45:13 Destiny explains that while it doesn't surprise him that people who use certain types of slurs tend to develop certain opinions, he asserts it is possible to engage in certain humours in ways that can minimize such effects happening to someone. Kormantine cuts off Destiny once more, and argues every study he read that analyzed the scenario presented shows individuals will become racist regardless. Kormantine pulls up several physical copies of books in the process of making his argument, and states he could find no study that backed Destiny's assertion.
46:04 Destiny asks Kormantine if he would ban all violent video games. Kormantine responds by questioning the relevance of this analogy. Destiny continues irregardless, and explains that there was a meta analysis involving 17,000 individuals showing a massive link between violent video games and aggressive behavior. Following an interruption by Cole, Destiny attempts to elucidate on his position further before Kormantine interrupts once more asking for Destiny to state who the author of the met a analysis was. Destiny continues, arguing that while the link is undeniable between violent video games and aggressive behavior, he hopes that people would be able to be moved to engage in this media in a responsible manner, rather than outright banning the media.
47:48 Destiny likens the gaming study to the current topic. He argues that he would hope an individual,such as himself, who has become substantially less racist over time, should be able to engage in such "shock-value" humor in a manner that doesn't turn them into a racist over time.
48:46 Kormantine responds that he doesn't give a shit about why Destiny uses racial jokes in private, he explains his primary concern is Destiny's proclaiming of such to his audience. He contends that not everyone who views Destiny's stream has a "mind-palace" constructed for themselves to prevent those racial jokes from turning themselves into racists.
50:31 Destiny contends that the individuals who consume his broader content are unlikely to fall in the category of racist individuals taking such jokes beyond their shock value.
50:39 Kormantine questions why Destiny is yelling at him, and Destiny denies doing so. Destiny goes on to explain that he is talking in such a fast manner as Kormantine has interrupted him several times, and is showing a tendency to "talk at him".
51:04 Kormantine claims to study racism in his private life, and that Destiny has not. Kormantine continues, and states Destiny is not arguing in reality, and provides a few anecdotes from a study. Destiny takes issue with the example provided by Kormantine, as the individual was not telling a joke and engaging in blatant racism. He concludes that the point of these anecdotes is that individuals who make these jokes will tend to think they are of a dominant social class.
54:04 Kormantine asserts that Destiny informing his audience tha the thinks it's okay to say edgy jokes in private, may lead his audience to believe such jokes are harmless, thereby causing members of his audience to express such edgy thoughts that are harmful to people of color.
54:21 Destiny accuses Kormantine of gish galloping, and informs him they are not having a real conversation right now. Kormantine replies that Destiny is simply just not on his level. Destiny retorts that he once again does not want to be "talked at" by Kormantine, and would like to have an actual conversation.
55:09 Kormantine asks if there's any "calculus" Destiny can arrive at that would prove him wrong. Destiny concedes that this is possible. Kormantine continues, and asks why he didn't hear out Trihex(an African American friend of Destiny's at the time) when he expressed his discomfort with Destiny's usage of the n-word in private. Destiny responds that this is a non-sequitur, and Cole steps in to argue with Destiny.
57:06 Kormantine asks Mindwaves why he's surprised by the behavior of African American's on the panel such as Cole given the nature of the topic. Destiny points out that he has had this same conversation with several other African Americans who were much more calm, namely Ahrelevant and Trihex.
57:28 Ahrelevant is given the opportunity to speak, he states he agrees with Destiny given that he is referring to "edgy-jokes" in general.
58:22 Destiny asks Kormantine if he believes someone quoting a Dave Chappelle skit using the n-word is the same as somebody saying they "hate all n-words". Kormantine replies that this is a stupid question. Destiny then responds that Kormantine is reading off a "giant fucking script he can't deviate off of". Kormantine replies: "How are you gonna debate me on my own fucking humanity?"
59:21 The panel attempts to give Pxie an opportunity to speak on the subject, and Kormantine states she should not speak on the manner because she's not black. Despite this, Pxie is given the opportunity to speak anyways. She states that Destiny admitting to saying the n-word in private defeats the purpose of his stance as it might normalize such racially charged language for individuals in his audience. She continues, arguing that individuals may not always know if someone is making a joke or not when saying the n-word.
1:01:16 Destiny asks Pxie if she believes that rape-kinks are okay . She argues there's a clear difference, as individuals with a rape-fetish possess a mutually consenting fetish. Destiny counters that there is no true difference, as such edgy-jokes would only be shared with individuals he knows are not racist, in the same way individuals who share a "rape-kink" would know they're not actually engaging in rape.
1:04:43 Following Cole's departure, and Mindwaves becoming irate, Kormantine asks Mindwaves how he can be upset at Cole for being made to debate such a sensitive topic. He continues, arguing it is toxic to have African Americans come into a conversation such as this and "prove themselves". Mindwaves retorts that Cole wanted to have this conversation, and therefore had no right to complain about the presence of the topic.
1:06:32 Kormantine argues he would be able to have a discussion on this topic with Ahrelevant given that he is a fellow African American. He continues, asserting that white people are unable to be challenged by African Americans without getting frustrated. Destiny retorts that it is disgusting for Kormantine to "even pretend" that such grievances are even mildly related to the topic at hand.
1:07:05 Ahrelevant points out that Kormantine has told Pxie to be quiet several times throughout the podcast. Kormantine reiterates that anybody who is not black should not voice their opinion on this subject.
1:07:57 Kormantine requests for the white individuals on the panel to "stop talking" and let the African Americans speak on the subject, and allow himself to "speak from his soul" . Kormantine continues, arguing that conversations like this create an unsafe environment for people of color, and asserts this is why Cole lefty the show. Destiny disagrees, and states that Cole left the show because he's a "bitch" and an "internet tough guy".
1:09:02 Kormantine argues Destiny would never say such edgy-jokes in a black neighborhood. Destiny counters that he obviously would not, and to even imply as much is ridiculous. He continues, asserting that "people say different things in front of different people", and provides the example of being shot because he told his girlfriend's dad they have sex. Kormantine responds by questioning why Destiny is yelling at him, and questions what is missing from Destiny's soul.
1:10:15 Ahrelevant asks Kormantine if he believes race-play is something two consenting adults should be allowed to do. Kormantine answers in the affirmative, but argues a distinction is at play between a consenting adult wanting to do something versus feeling the need to do something to feel accepted by the "dominant class". Ahrelevant likens this to the topic at hand, arguing one would have to make a better vetting process for the individuals they choose to make those edgy jokes around. Kormantine then denies the comparison altogether, arguing adults consenting to kinks in a relationship is not equivalent to adults consenting to jokes.
1:12:32 Kormantine and Ahrelevant argue for some time, with Ahrelevant taking great issued with Kormantine effectively silencing 75%(all the white people) of the panel.
1:13:15 Kormantine asserts that every argument he has made is backed by evidence, and every argument against him is backed by feelings. Ahrelevant and Kormantine continue to argue for some time.
1:15:04 Kormantine responds to Ahrelevant's race-play comparison, arguing if a black individual in such a scenario were to consent he sees no issue. However, he caveats that he would question why a white person in such a scenario would have such a kink. Kormantine maintains that the two subjects are incompatible, Destiny takes issue and argues that spousal oppression/rape(man over women) has existed for just as long if not longer than oppression over minorities. Destiny goes on to chide Kormantine for consistently pivoting throughout the conversation.
1:15:52 Kormantine accuses Destiny of "smashing together incomparable social issues". Destiny denies doing so, and accuses Kormantine of consistently pivoting throughout the discussion and refusing to give a genuine answer to a question.
1:16:11 Destiny reiterates the question posited by Ahrelevant: "Why is it okay to engage in rape play despite their being a history a current case of oppression of men over women, but not okay to engage in race-play given the same oppression exists towards minorities?" Kormantine responds by asking a question a question of his own regarding the patriarchy and oppression.
1:17:34 Kormantine states there is not a historical subordination of an entire class of women such that they are treated as property, arguing that there are women who participate in the patriarchy "furthering that project". He points to the wife of a slave owner receiving her husband's property upon his death as an example. He continues, arguing that rape-play example is irrelevant given that both the man and the women in such a scenario are part of a dominant class.
1:18:00 Destiny takes issue with Kormantine's point, arguing that women have seen such oppression historically such as voting rights, sex-slave trade, being married off to families.
1:19:16 Kormantine asks for Destiny to define what a "black" is. Destiny responds it is a social construct for the way a person tends to look, Kormantine responds that's not true, and Destiny heatedly requests for Kormantine to explain what part is not true. Upon Kormantine's hesitation, Destiny continues to pressure him for a response for some time.
1:26:39 Following Destiny responses to some questions from Hasan, Kormantine accuses Destiny of missing the point. Destiny then replies: "I don't care what you think... you lack the education to talk about this."
1:28:33 Destiny asserts that just because Kormantine is black, does not necessarily give him the authority to speak on this topic with authority. Kormantine replies he did not join this podcast to debate Destiny, but to preach to a broader audience.
1:29:25 After Kormantine accuses Destiny of potentially being a paid actor, Destiny responds: "You have no idea who the fuck I am or what i've been paid to do. You clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about so I have no idea why you would accuse me of doing that." Kormantine responds by suggesting that Destiny would never say such things to his face, and Destiny offers to have this exchange in person at the next twitchcon. Mindwaves steps in at this point to cut off the heated exchange, and accuses Kormantine of posturing the entire podcast.
1:43:57 Kormantine interrupts an exchange between Hasan and Destiny to state he is getting a headache, and questions the need to have the conversation and Destiny's lack of an apology for using the word. Destiny counters by questioning why Kormantine feels the need to police his private conversations.
1:47:19 Kormantine accuses Destiny of being unable to intake new ideas.
1:49:08 Kormantine accuses Destiny of abdicating responsibility for his position, and accuses Destiny of losing a friend for standing by this position. Destiny replies that he would always stand by his principles, even at the cost of a friend.
1:57:24 Kormantine laments the topic once more, Mindwaves resents this and accuses him for being responsible for the topic's discussion. Kormantine questions what he means by this, and Mindwaves explains that both him and Cole reached out to him to discuss the topic.
2:13:31 Kormantine takes issue with Ahrelevantstating he'd be okay with someone like Bernie Sanders saying the n-word in private. Kormantine goes on to question Ahrelevant's blackness and argues he would be unable to stand beside Civil Rights protestors.
2:14:35 Kormantine informs Ahrelevant: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother". Destiny takes great issue with this statement.
2:15:04 Destiny mutes his audio for the panel and informs his audience that he feels like Kormantine "is the biggest fucking piece of shit in the world".
2:22:40 Destiny and Kormantine argue for some time regarding their previously asserted positions.
2:28:32 Kormantine is asked if he would be more comfortable with Jessie Lee Peterson saying the n-word in private or Destiny. Kormantine says he would not trust either of them.
2:41:04 Destiny accuses Kormantine of gish galloping throughout the conversation. The two engage in yet another heated discussion for some time. During this exchange, Kormantine states he was not here to have a discussion with Destiny but rather to preach to a broader audience.
2:44:43 Mindwaves mutes Kormantine after he interrupts Ahrelevant.
2:49:19 Destiny addresses the study Kormantine linked earlier int he panel, and explains how it lacks relevance to the argument. Kormantine responds by explaining he did not in fact cite the study Destiny is viewing, but rather those linked in the footnotes. Kormantine begins to offer to go through those studies, but Destiny cuts him off and informs Kormantine that he has no desire to engage with him further on the topic. The exchange continues, and the two argue for some time headily. Kormantine attempts to leave the call, claiming to be frustrated by individuals on the call yelling at him. Destiny takes issue with this, arguing he has received several hate threads since the beginning of the podcast. Ahrelevant chimes in, and claims to have received several direct messages calling him a racial slur.
2:53:21 Mindwaves apologizes to Kormantine for the call becoming a "shit-show", and allows him to say his farewell. Hasan says his farewell to Kormantine, and the two agree to talk about the discussion offline.
2:55:15 Destiny discovers a tweet from Cole James Cash, announcing his appearance on the podcast alongside Kormantine to confront Destiny.
Grievances with the subject
Despite previously celebrating the topic's announcement and proclaiming it's the topic he joined the panel for, Kormantine goes on to questions the presence of the topic. At the onset of the discussion, Kormantine asks Mindwaves: "Did you get what you were looking for out of this?" Mindwaves retorts that Kormantine and Cole came to him with the subject, which Kormantine denies. Kormantine goes on to describe the perceived incentives of certain individuals in the panel, and why a productive conversation could never be had; Ahrelevant being incentivized to agree with Destiny, Destiny being incentivized to maintain his position, and Mindwaves being incentivized to hold this conversation. Despite this, Kormantine remained in the call for the duration of the topic's discussion. Kormantine would go on to lament how the topic, and Destiny's position, would work to alienate persons of color, and dissuade them from being willing to participate on the platform.
During the panel, Kormantine took particular issue with the white individuals on the show attempting to voice an opinion on the subject, and demanded the conversation be kept between the black members of the panel.[12][13] This was much to the chagrin of fellow African American panelist Ahrelevant, who accused Kormantine of effectively "silencing 75% of the panel".[14]
Appeals to authority
Throughout the panel, Kormantine would frequently attempt to leverage his credentials to speak on certain portions of the topic from a position of authority.[15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22] During these bouts, Kormantine would claim to study the subject for a living, point to several pieces of literature(both physical and digital) which he alleges back his argument, and chide others in the panel who he deemed to be not well read enough on the subject at hand to voice a valid opinion.
Race-play vs Racial Humour
Cole James Cash discussing his goal in confronting Destiny alongside Kormantine. [23]
At one point during the discussion, Ahrelevant asks Kormantine if he believes race-play to be something two consenting adults should be allowed to do. Kormantine answers in the affirmative, but argues a distinction is at play between a consenting adult wanting to do something versus feeling the need to do something to feel accepted by the "dominant class"(referring to white people). Ahrelevant then likens this to the topic at hand, explaining while one would have to make a better vetting process for the individuals they choose to make those edgy jokes around, the same process could apply to individuals making edgy-jokes in private. Kormantine then denies the comparison altogether, arguing adults consenting to kinks in a relationship is not equivalent to adults consenting to jokes.
The question is posited to Kormantine once more, and Kormantine argues if a black individual in such a scenario were to consent he sees no issue. However, he caveats that he would question why a white person in such a scenario would have such a kink. Kormantine goes on to maintain that the two subjects are incompatible, and accuses Destiny and Ahrelevant of "smashing together incomparable social issues". Kormantine then explains there is not a historical subordination of an entire class of women such that they are treated as property, and argues that there are women who participate in the patriarchy "furthering that project". He points to the wife of a slave owner receiving her husband's property upon his death as an example. He continues, arguing that rape-play example is irrelevant given that both the man and the women in such a scenario are part of a dominant class. Destiny takes great issue with Kormantine's assertion, and argues that women have seen similar oppression historically such as a lack of voting rights, sex-slave trade, and being married off to families.
Defining "Black"
At one point during the conversation, Kormantine asks for Destiny to define what a "black" is. Destiny responds it is a social construct for the way a person tends to look. In return, Kormantine responds that's not true. Upon hearing his disagreeal Destiny repeatedly requests for Kormantine to explain what part is not true, Kormantine hesitates, and Destiny continues to pressure Kormantine to issue a response for some time. Several times throughout this exchange, Destiny, poking fun at Kormantine making similar assertions earlier, would state something like: "The fact that came out of your mouth tells me you're lying about this, you're not educated. I've read studies and books and know you're wrong, i'm sorry man". Statements like this were met with much controversy both during and after the podcast, as many people would point to this quote as Destiny deriding Kormantine's educational background(despite Kormantine doing the same to several of his fellow panelists up until this point).
Destiny vs. Hasan
Upon entering the call, Hasan is greeted jovially by Destiny. The two exchange some pleasantries regarding a hot-chip challenge Destiny had participated in, and briefly discuss their diminished communications as of late. Following this, Mindwaves Provides Hasan the opportunity to ask Destiny a few questions.
Why do you not want people to say the n-word in public?
Destiny believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs.
Do you feel like discussing this position in public undermines your entire view?
Destiny argues that a miserable difference exists between proclaiming one tells edgy-jokes in private versus actually saying the edgy-jokes in public. Destiny likens this to informing someone they have sex with their partner versus graphically describing the acts.
Did you feel the need to elaborate on this position out of fear of someone leaking your use of this language in private?
Destiny replies that he has no worries regarding potential leaks, and explains that this is the stance he has had on language for several years. He continues, arguing that the only reason this is now up for debate is because he has a "whole new group of people" attacking him. Destiny concludes by stating the two areas he polices are, how people vote and how people act in public.
Hasan reiterates his prior question, asking Destiny if he believes announcing his use of edgy-language in private to the public may undermine his position on edgy-language in public.
Destiny explains that there is not likely genuinely racist people out there who stopped using racist language because of his point of view.
Hasan questions why Destiny doesn't lie about saying the n-word in private if his ultimate goal is harm reduction and to avoid normalizing such language.
Destiny responds his ultimate goal is not harm reduction, but rather to see arguments to their logical conclusion with harm reduction being a byproduct of some of his positions.
Hasan asks Destiny if there's any use of the n-word bleeding into the public damaging his brand/reputation, and therefore not allowing him to maximize his own personal pleasure.
Destiny agrees that this is possible, but he values his independence above all.
Following each question,the exchange becomes progressively more heated as Destiny discovers that Hasan has joined the panel to assist Kormantine. To start, Hasan laudes Kormantine for his debate performance up until this point, and accuses Destiny of being unable to empathize with Kormantine's position on the subject due to his whiteness. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private.
The exchange continues, as Hasan accuses Destiny of emboldening alt-right rhetoric and "bellitting black people" with his position. Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes great issue with this framing, and informs Hasan that his debate opponents(primarily Kormantine and Cole), have routinely showcased a poor faith engagement with the topic and overall rude behavior to himself and members of the panel.
Throughout the discussion, Hasan's primary contention is that Destiny should never have announced his private use of the n-word to the public, and that his doing so runs the risk of normalizing the word. He further argues it to be counterintuitive to Destiny's larger body of progressive work, and damaging to Destiny's otherwise progressive brand. When presented with these arguments, Destiny would posit he values his independence above all else, and would not capitulate or lie about a position he has held for years.
Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Hasan
1:19:3 Hasan joins the stream, and sees Destiny involved in a heated exchange with Kormantine on the definition of "black".
1:21:03 Mindwaves gives Hasan some time to speak. During that time, Hasan is given the opportunity to ask Destiny some questions. Hasan and Destiny have a light-hearted exchange.
1:22:17 After yet another heated exchange between Destiny and Kormantine, Hasan compliments Kormantine on his "incredible [debate] performance". Hasan goes on to laude Kormantine for his debate performance, and informs him he has not lost the debate despite losing his cool.
1:23:04 Hasan asks Destiny why he doesn't want people to say the n-word in public. Destiny responds that he believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs.
1:24:15 After Hasan asks Bastiat what his political affiliation, Bastiat proclaims himself to be a neoliberal. Destiny laughs at this proclamation, and welcomes his "liberal brother".
1:32:37 Hasan asserts that genuinely racist individuals may feel emboldened by Destiny's position and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes issue with this, and argues his opponents have been the inflammatory ones.
1:33:46 Hasan informs Destiny that he has no way of empathizing with Kormantine's position on the subject. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private.
1:35:12 Hasan states that while the context in which the n-word is stated is important, saying you use the word "all the time" in private arguably eliminates the context. Hasan goes on to point to logs of Destiny using the word in DGG: "There are logs of Destiny using the n-word in wayhs we are exactly thinking of him using it". Destiny counters that his use of the word in dgg was at a time when he considered the chatroom to be a relatively closed space, and that he has changed on his stance on using the word on his platform. Destiny continues, asserting that other content creators(Badbunny) with more egregious usages of the word than him have been given a past, while he has been placed under much scrutiny despite the breadth of his progressive work.
1:36:54 Hasan jokes that he has never defended Badbunny outside of the time she groped him.
1:37:42 Pxie reiterates her belief that Destiny's stating his use of the word in private to the public is counterproductive. The two deliberate for some time.
1:41:02 Hasan asserts a particular image in most individual's minds occurs when they think about two white guys saying the n-word in private. Hasan goes on to remark that it is unlikely Destiny is saying the n-word around his black friends, as his one very public black friend(Trihex), had recently taken issue with Destiny's position on the subject. Destiny questions why Hasan would bring this up, and argues Hasan would walk back his entire argument if he could show Hasan a black friend he has said the word in private to. Destiny then accuses Hasan of trying to "score brownie points".
1:43:08 Hasan questions Destiny's use of the n-word even in joking contexts, asserting it is still problematic. Destiny counters that there are several examples of jokes that necessitate the use of a slur.
1:43:36 Destiny requests for Hasan to acknowledge that there are funny circumstances in which the n-word can be used.
1:46:28 Hasan questions why Destiny doesn't lie about his position. Destiny responds he doesn't wish to lie. Hasan repeats the question once more, and informs Destiny lying would assist in his goal of harm reduction. Destiny counters his goal is not harm reduction, but rather to follow arguments to their logical conclusion.
1:53:59 Hasan sarcastically questions why a progressive person of color would take issue with Destiny's position.
1:55:47 Hasan states that Destiny's usage of the n-word in private will likely seep into his public life. Destiny responds that he only responds to this when pressured by individuals to discuss the topic. He explains it was originally discussed with conservatives to discuss acceptable behavior, and is now being used against him by left-leaning individuals.
2:01:12 Hasan asks Destiny if there's any use of the n-word bleeding into the public damaging his brand/reputation, and therefore not allowing him to maximize his own personal pleasure. Destiny agrees that this is possible, but he values his independence above all.
2:01:47 Hasan asks Destiny if he believes racists would be emboldened by his defense. Destiny replies he does not believe so, and he should not have to make sacrifices to what he does privately.
2:02:18 Bastiat points to the irony of Hasan deriding Destiny for his private language while he uses Communist Russia symbology in his stream. Destiny agrees with Bastiat's perspective, and states he's now sold on Neoliberalism.
2:03:59 Hasan asks if Ahrelevant's would prefer if Destiny lied about his position. Ahrelevant responds he would not be comfortable with that, and points to how a content creator could face massive feedback if such logs were leaked if their public stance was being strictly against the word.
2:05:13 Hasan argues that moral consistency does not prevent one from damaging their brand(in regards to wanting Destiny to lie about his position. Hasan goes on to contend that moral consistency is only important for "internet edge lords". Destiny sarcastically responds that he would empathetic with Hasan's position if he personally didn't have any principles or values. Destiny goes on to chide Hasan for attempting to police his public language after Hasan had recently faced much controversy for expressing his desire to "eye-fuck" a veteran. Destiny goes on to point out that Hasan almost got "shit-canned" from The Young Turks for saying as much.
2:06:35 Ahrelevant explains that "not looking like a grifter" is very important, as one would be unable to trust any perspective from a grifter. Hasan takes issue with this perspective and the two deliberate for some time.
2:10:15 Pxie argues the n-word should probably not be used in private or public, nor say that it's used in private.
2:11:40 Hasan asks how Ahrelevantfeels regarding usage of the n-word with the hard r in private. Destiny takes great issue with the framing of Hasan's question, and accuses him of trying to make Ahrelevant out to be a Candace Owens jr.
2:14:35 Kormantine informs Ahrelevant: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother". Destiny takes great issue with this statement, Hasan attempts to defend Kormantine.
2:26:32 Seeing Kormantine and Destiny embroiled in a heated exchange, Hasan jokes that Destiny is going to say the n-word several times in private after this conversation.
2:35:13 Ahrelevant draws a parallel between Hasan’s use of Soviet imagery and his stance that Destiny should avoid publicly stating he uses the n-word in private. Hasan counters that the difference between his and Destiny's perspective, asserting that destigmatizing the hammer and sickle is far more conducive to progressive ideals than normalizing the n-word. Bastiat takes issue and accuses Hasan of wishing to destigmatize mass murder. Ahrelevant also takes issue, and asks Hasan if he thinks people from Ukraine may take issue with the destigimization of such iconography. Hasan counters: "Do you think black people feel some type of way about the US flag?"
2:37:55 Hasan explains there is no political message behind using the n word, compared to Soviet Iconography, even if the Soviet Union has done some questionable things in the past.
2:38:41 Hasan contends that Destiny's private use of the n-word is leaking out in the public through his running of this defense, Ahrelevant counters that this could cease if Hasan simply stopped questioning him on it. Hasan counters in turn that Destiny could also refrain from advocating for the position.
2:45:10 Ahrelevant asks Hasan if he believes it to be morally okay for couples to perform rape-play,race-play or bdsm in private. Hasan answers in the affirmative and states he would even be okay with Destiny referring to his hypothetical black girlfriend as the n-word when they have sex. A visibly frustrated Destiny laughs and thanks Hasan for making his argument to say the n-word in private, and Hasan denies doing so.
2:46:23 Hasan states he has been trying to be nice to Destiny throughout the conversation, Destiny denies this and points to earlier in the call when Hasan accused him of belittling black people in private. Hasan denies this too, and Destiny has to stop himself from calling Hasan dumb before asking Hasan to restate his stance.
2:47:53 Hasan attempts to restate Destiny's position: "Under certain circumstances, consenting adults should be allowed to say the n-word in private.." Destiny cuts him off at this point, and informs Hasan that his position has always been about edgy jokes in private vs in public. Destiny goes on to lament the tendency of Hasan, and the other individuals on the panel, for making the argument purely about the n-word.
2:48:09 Hasan states that his argument is predicated on a soundbite from Destiny wherein he states he uses the n-word in private all the time. Destiny rejects this notion, and points to several times in the past that he has stated his overarching stance regarding edgy language in private.
2:48:36 Hasan claims to make edgy jokes in private that he would make privately. Destiny takes issue, and request for Hasan to define what an edgy joke is. Hasan claims his edgy jokes typically involve Italians, and Destiny decides to end the conversation right there.
2:53:21 Mindwaves apologizes to Kormantine for the call becoming a "shit-show", and allows him to say his farewell. Hasan says his farewell to Kormantine, and the two agree to talk about the discussion offline.
2:55:56 Mindwaves claims to disagree with the combative approach Cole and Kormantine took with Destiny on the subject, and Hasan takes issue.
2:56:49 Hasan begins to defend Lance's perspective, and Destiny temporarily mute the stream to inform his audience that he needs to take a break for his sanity. He claims to have never been gaslit so hard before, and that Hasan, Cole, and Kormantine have been very poor debate partners throughout the discussion.
2:59:10 Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him.
2:59:56 Hasan doubles down on his accusation of Destiny belittling black people. An increasingly frustrated Destiny offers to explain the situation to Hasan "real slow":
3:00:55 Destiny accuses hasan of joining the call explicitly to accuse him of "saying the n-word over and over again in private". Hasan offers to pull back this accusation if Destiny says otherwise, to which Destiny responds "I love black people". As Hasan and Destiny attempt to continue the debate, Mindwaves mutes both of them and requests for them to handle the subject on their own streams.
3:02:51 Destiny points out that the two "pro-private language people"(himself and Ahrelevant) were the only ones who allowed Pxie to speak, meanwhile Kormantine, Cole, and Hasan took every opportunity to shut her down. Hasan accuses Destiny of being hypocritical.
Accusations of belittling black people
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Hasan accuses Destiny of belittling black people.[24]
At one point during the conversation, Hasan accuses Destiny of embolding racist individuals through his position, and belittling black people. Hasan would later deny saying as much, then doubled-down on the position when presented with the clip.
Hasan asserts that genuinely racist individuals may feel emboldened by Destiny's position and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes issue with this, and argues his opponents have been the inflammatory ones.
Hasan states he has been trying to be nice to Destiny throughout the conversation, Destiny denies this and points to earlier in the call when Hasan accused him of belittling black people in private. Hasan denies this too, and Destiny has to stop himself from calling Hasan dumb before asking Hasan to restate his stance.
Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him.
Hasan doubles down on his accusation of Destiny belittling black people. An increasingly frustrated Destiny offers to explain the situation to Hasan "real slow":
Hasan entered the call accusing him of belittling black people
Hasan denied saying so when it was brought up
Destiny then shows a clip of Hasan accusing him of belittling black people
Destiny accuses hasan of joining the call explicitly to accuse him of "saying the n-word over and over again in private". Hasan offers to pull back this accusation if Destiny says otherwise, to which Destiny responds "I love black people".
Praising Kormantine
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Hasan taking the time to praise Kormantine for his debate performance. Hasan goes on to assure Kormantine he has not lost the debate. [25]
Throughout the discussion, Hasan levied no major criticisms towards Kormantine nor engaged in any substantive discussion with the content creator beyond offering praise or backing his arguments.
After yet another heated exchange between Destiny and Kormantine, Hasan compliments Kormantine on his "incredible [debate] performance". Hasan goes on to and informs Kormantine he has not lost the debate despite losing his cool.
Hasan informs Destiny that he has no way of empathizing with Kormantine's position on the subject. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private.
Kormantine informs Ahrelevant: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother". Destiny takes great issue with this statement, Hasan attempts to defend Kormantine.
Seeing Kormantine and Destiny embroiled in a heated exchange, Hasan jokes that Destiny is going to say the n-word several times in private after this conversation.
Mindwaves apologizes to Kormantine for the call becoming a "shit-show", and allows him to say his farewell. Hasan says his farewell to Kormantine, and the two agree to talk about the discussion offline.
Hasan's use of Soviet Iconography
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Bastiat derides Hasan for his use of Communist Russia iconography.[26]
During the conversation, Bastiat, Ahrelevant, and Destiny point to the irony of Hasan lambasting Destiny for his use of edgy language in private while Hasan "fetishizes" Soviet iconography on his stream.
Bastiat points to the irony of Hasan deriding Destiny for his private language while he uses Communist Russia symbology in his stream. Destiny agrees with Bastiat's perspective, and states he's now sold on Neoliberalism.
Ahrelevant draws a parallel between Hasan’s use of Soviet imagery and his stance that Destiny should avoid publicly stating he uses the n-word in private. Hasan counters that the difference between his and Destiny's perspective, asserting that destigmatizing the hammer and sickle is far more conducive to progressive ideals than normalizing the n-word. Bastiat takes issue and accuses Hasan of wishing to destigmatize mass murder. Ahrelevant also takes issue, and asks Hasan if he thinks people from Ukraine may take issue with the destigimization of such iconography. Hasan counters: "Do you think black people feel some type of way about the US flag?"
Sexual acts in private vs Edgy Language in private
At one point during the conversation, Ahrelevant asks Hasan if he believes it to be morally okay for couples to perform rape-play,race-play or bdsm in private. Hasan answers in the affirmative and states he would even be okay with Destiny referring to his hypothetical black girlfriend as the n-word when they have sex. A visibly frustrated Destiny laughs and thanks Hasan for making his argument to say the n-word in private, and Hasan denies doing so.[27]
TheSerfs
TheSerfs AKA Lance had a relatively passive engagement with the topic throughout most of the panel.
Timestamps
1:45:53 Lance asks Destiny what he loses by refraining from saying the n-word. Destiny responds that he loses the ability to tell some jokes.
1:51:31 Mindwaves gives Lance the opportunity to speak. Lance takes the opportunity to give a recently muted Kormantine his time to speak.
2:40:16 Lance disagrees with Destiny's position, informing him that leftists are not trying to control his private speech. He continues, asserting he simply does not believe Destiny should have announced his doing so to the public.
2:55:04 Lance claims to agree with Kormantine, and disagrees with the heated nature of the conversation.
2:55:56 Destiny asks Lance a question: "Do you think Kormantine made a good faith approach to this conversation?" He informs Destiny that he believes he was acting in bad faith by being condescending and calling him stupid. Lance goes on to claim he was present for the whole 3 hours and apparently never heard Kormantine do the saem to Destiny. Destiny took issue with this, and requests for Lance to "get fucked".
While Lance was silent throughout much of the topic, he still agreed with Kormantine and Cole's perspective on the subject. Before he can leave, Destiny asks Lance a question: "Do you think Kormantine made a good faith approach to this conversation?" Lance replies, stating that he feels Destiny acted in bad faith by being condescending and calling Kormantine stupid. Destiny took issue with this, and requests for Lance to "get fucked". [28]
Ahrelevant
Throughout the topic, Ahrelevant was more or less in agreement with the totality of Destiny's position and is fine with the word being used in private. This was much to the chagrin of those opposed to the word's use in private, and resulted in Kormantine questioning Ahrelevant's "blackness" at one point.
Timestamps
32:22 Ahrelevant provides his input on the topic, asserting he is fine with Destiny saying the word in private. Cole responds that Ahrelevant needs to "spend time with [his] own people". Mindwaves steps in, and ridicules Cole of accusing Ahrelevant of "not being black enough" to have an opinion.
57:06 Kormantine asks Mindwaves why he's surprised by the behavior of African American's on the panel such as Cole given the nature of the topic. Destiny points out that he has had this same conversation with several other African Americans who were much more calm, namely Ahrelevant and Trihex.
57:28 Ahrelevant is given the opportunity to speak, he states he agrees with Destiny given that he is referring to "edgy-jokes" in general.
1:06:32 Kormantine argues he would be able to have a discussion on this topic with Ahrelevant given that he is a fellow African American. He continues, asserting that white people are unable to be challenged by African Americans without getting frustrated. Destiny retorts that it is disgusting for Kormantine to "even pretend" that such grievances are even mildly related to the topic at hand.
1:07:05 Ahrelevant points out that Kormantine has told Pxie to be quiet several times throughout the podcast. Kormantine reiterates that anybody who is not black should not voice their opinion on this subject.
1:10:15 Ahrelevant asks Kormantine if he believes race-play is something two consenting adults should be allowed to do. Kormantine answers in the affirmative, but argues a distinction is at play between a consenting adult wanting to do something versus feeling the need to do something to feel accepted by the "dominant class". Ahrelevant likens this to the topic at hand, arguing one would have to make a better vetting process for the individuals they choose to make those edgy jokes around. Kormantine then denies the comparison altogether, arguing adults consenting to kinks in a relationship is not equivalent to adults consenting to jokes.
1:12:32 Kormantine and Ahrelevant argue for some time, with Ahrelevant taking great issued with Kormantine effectively silencing 75%(all the white people) of the panel.
1:13:15 Kormantine asserts that every argument he has made is backed by evidence, and every argument against him is backed by feelings. Ahrelevant and Kormantine continue to argue for some time.
1:15:04 Kormantine responds to Ahrelevant's race-play comparison, arguing if a black individual in such a scenario were to consent he sees no issue. However, he caveats that he would question why a white person in such a scenario would have such a kink. Kormantine maintains that the two subjects are incompatible, Destiny takes issue and argues that spousal oppression/rape(man over women) has existed for just as long if not longer than oppression over minorities. Destiny goes on to chide Kormantine for consistently pivoting throughout the conversation.
2:03:59 Hasan asks if Ahrelevant's would prefer if Destiny lied about his position. Ahrelevant responds he would not be comfortable with that, and points to how a content creator could face massive feedback if such logs were leaked if their public stance was being strictly against the word.
2:06:35 Ahrelevant explains that "not looking like a grifter" is very important, as one would be unable to trust any perspective from a grifter.
2:10:56 Following Pxie explaining that lying about one's position may be a viable solution, Ahrelevant responds. He describes his personal experiencing growing up as an African American, and dealing with individuals trying to sell him stuff because of his race and eventually finding out they were grifting. He concludes that he would prefer to side with people who are straight with him, rather than putting on the guise of being "pro-poc".
2:12:09 Hasan asks Ahrelevant how he feels about the n-word(hard r) being used in private. Ahrelevant argues context matters when talking about the n-word with a hard-r, and explains he would not be comfortable with people using the n-word(har r) in private unless they were aware of the racial rammifcations of such language. Ahrelevant provides the example of not caring if someone like Bernie Sanders says the n-word in private.
2:13:31 Kormantine takes issue with Ahrelevant stating he'd be okay with someone like Bernie Sanders saying the n-word in private. Kormantine goes on to question Ahrelevant's blackness and argues he would be unable to stand beside Civil Rights protestors.
2:14:35 Kormantine informs Ahrelevant: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother".
2:33:32 Ahrelevant disagrees with Kormantine's framing of his prior arguments, and defends Destiny.
2:35:13 Ahrelevant draws a parallel between Hasan’s use of Soviet imagery and his stance that Destiny should avoid publicly stating he uses the n-word in private. Hasan counters that the difference between his and Destiny's perspective, asserting that destigmatizing the hammer and sickle is far more conducive to progressive ideals than normalizing the n-word.
2:49:19 Destiny addresses the study Kormantine linked earlier int he panel, and explains how it lacks relevance to the argument. Kormantine responds by explaining he did not in fact cite the study Destiny is viewing, but rather those linked in the footnotes. Kormantine begins to offer to go through those studies, but Destiny cuts him off and informs Kormantine that he has no desire to engage with him further on the topic. The exchange continues, and the two argue for some time headily. Kormantine leaves the call, claiming to be frustrated by individuals on the call yelling at him. Destiny takes issue with this, arguing he has received several hate threads since the beginning of the podcast. Ahrelevant chimes in, and claims to have received several direct messages calling him a racial slur.
2:58:45 Ahrelevant inquires about Lance's main point of contention.
Pxie
Throughout the discussion, Pxie aligned more closely with those critical of Destiny's use of edgy language in private. Like others on the panel, she believed that Destiny's public acknowledgment of using such language in private undermined his stance on the harmful nature of "edgy words." That said, Pxie's neutral approach to engaging with Destiny's position, combined with her overall kinder demeanor, fostered a more constructive exchange of ideas compared to the more confrontational tone adopted by some of the other panelists.
Timestamps
32:50 Pxie chimes in, and asks Destiny why he believes saying the n-word isn't racist. Destiny responds that as a public figure, he does not platform language that is harmful or further entrenches groups of people. Destiny continues, explaining that when in private and surrounded by individuals he is sure are not racist, there are "edgy" jokes involving racist terms he would be comfortable making(e.g. jokes from a George Carlin Skit, or a Boondocks episode). Pxie retorts that Destiny saying he states these jokes in private to the public, defeats the purpose of Destiny's stance on racist words. Destiny counters that he never repeats these "private jokes" to the public, as such, it would not nullify any public stance he takes on such terms.
36:48 Pxie remarks that Destiny does not typically debate to change individuals minds, but is mainly trying to suey the audience. Destiny agrees.
59:21 The panel attempts to give Pxie an opportunity to speak on the subject, and Kormantine states she should not speak on the manner because she's not black. Despite this, Pxie is given the opportunity to speak anyways. She states that Destiny admitting to saying the n-word in private defeats the purpose of his stance as it might normalize such racially charged language for individuals in his audience. She continues, arguing that individuals may not always know if someone is making a joke or not when saying the n-word.
1:01:16 Destiny asks Pxie if she believes that rape-kinks are okay . She argues there's a clear difference, as individuals with a rape-fetish possess a mutually consenting fetish. Destiny counters that there is no true difference, as such edgy-jokes would only be shared with individuals he knows are not racist, in the same way individuals who share a "rape-kink" would know they're not actually engaging in rape.
1:04:43 Following Cole's departure, and Mindwaves becoming irate, Kormantine asks Mindwaves how he can be upset at Cole for being made to debate such a sensitive topic. He continues, arguing it is toxic to have African Americans come into a conversation such as this and "prove themselves". Mindwaves retorts that Cole wanted to have this conversation, and therefore had no right to complain about the presence of the topic.
1:06:32 Kormantine argues he would be able to have a discussion on this topic with Ahrelevant given that he is a fellow African American. He continues, asserting that white people are unable to be challenged by African Americans without getting frustrated. Destiny retorts that it is disgusting for Kormantine to "even pretend" that such grievances are even mildly related to the topic at hand.
1:07:05 Ahrelevant points out that Kormantine has told Pxie to be quiet several times throughout the podcast. Kormantine reiterates that anybody who is not black should not voice their opinion on this subject.
1:37:42 Pxie reiterates her belief that Destiny's stating his use of the word in private to the public is counterproductive. The two deliberate for some time.
2:10:15 Pxie argues the n-word should probably not be used in private or public, nor say that it's used in private.
2:53:56 Pxie addresses the race-play comparison. She admits to finding race-play to being "very sketch".
3:02:51 Destiny points out that the two "pro-private language people"(himself and Ahrelevant) were the only ones who allowed Pxie to speak, meanwhile Kormantine, Cole, and Hasan took every opportunity to shut her down.
Third Topic: Democratic Primary
Following the n-word in private discussion, Mindwaves introduced the next topic: The 2020 Democratic primary. This discussion was significantly less eventful than the prior topic, and resulted in a relatively more productive discussion concerning the viability of certain candidates. During this segment, Destiny and Hasan briefly debated whether Joe Biden was receiving an unfair proportion of media coverage relative to Bernie Sanders. Hasan being of the opinion that the media was purposely denying Senator Sanders media coverage. Destiny, however, dismissed the idea of any pressure to suppress reporting on Sanders, arguing that such interference would have been reported on by now. Destiny goes on to argue that Senator Sanders already has significant media engagement.
3:03:38 Hasan jokes that Destiny is only nice to girls when he's "questing" them. Destiny then jokes that the only reason he supports Elizabeth_warren is because he's questing her.
3:04:20 Mindwaves asks what every panelists takeaway from the Democratic debates are.
3:04:33 The panelists discuss Elizabeth Warren's perspective on medicare for all.
3:07:22 Hasan and Basitat discuss Tulsi Gabbard. Hasan being of the opinion she would be a poor candidate, and Bastiat taking the opposite stance. Hasan states his biggest issue with Gabbard is her "warhawk" attitude.
3:09:56 Hasan discusses his belief that the US funds Israel's "crimes against humanity".
3:11:21 Destiny discusses his perspective on Gabbard versus Sanders.
3:14:31 Destiny praises Buttigieg's perspective on foreign policy.
3:16:22 Pxie discusses her perspective on American foreign policy. She goes on to provide her opinion relating to Puerto-rican independence vs. statehood.
3:19:28 The panel discuss Bernie's diminished media coverage.
3:22:06 Hasan discusses his favorable perspective towards Warren.
3:23:34 Destiny points out that Bernie supporters have turned on Warren now that she has passed Sanders in polls.
3:25:53 Bastiat argues that conflict in the Democratic party will set them back in the general election. Destiny recounts the vitriol during Obama vs Clinton.
3:27:50 Hasan states Biden is worse than Hillary Clinton.
3:28:41 Hasan asks Destiny if he feels that Biden has gotten an "insane amount of support" from the media relatively to Sanders. Destiny denies that some top-down pressure to halt reporting on Sanders exists, and if there was it would have been reported on by now. Hasan and Destiny debate whether biases exist within media pertaining to Biden or Sanders for some time.
3:35:23 Destiny argues Bernie has had a ton of engagement with media.
Fourth Topic: Mark Zuckerberg's secret meetings with Conservatives
The panel briefly discusses some meetings held by Mark Zuckerberg and conservative politicians.
Timestamps
3:41:17 Mindwaves introduces the topic. Basiat argues that Zuckerberg is likely holding these meetings to avoid regulation from conservatives in the future.
3:42:30 Destiny questions if such meetings are truly abnormal behavior.
3:43:51 Pxie points out that Facebook could theoretically be a threat to democracy if things got bad enough.
3:46:15 Mindwaves asks how Destiny and Hasan feel about potential regulations on political ads through social media. Destiny argues that such a ban could be dangerous, given that republicans and democrats effectively operate in different worlds in defining what "disinformation" is. The rest of the panel agrees.
3:53:10 Destiny argues gross-disinformation should be made illegal.
3:54:42 Bastiat argues that disinformation is just a phase society will get past. Destiny retorts that nobody is interested in seeing fair and balanced media coverage.
4:08:18 The panel discusses how the n-word debate could have been improved.
References
↑ Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More [YouTube video]. YouTube. Retrieved November 27, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hodq77NShaA
↑ MindWavesTV. (2019, November 3). Big Brain Podcast Ep. 11 ft. Destiny, Hasan Piker, The Serfs, ActualJake, Cole James Cash & more [YouTube video]. YouTube. Retrieved November 27, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHkH9TthrmU
↑Destiny states his stance on the n-word in private. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=2764
↑Kormantine questions Destiny making his stance known to the public. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=2713
↑ Pxie questions Destiny making his stance known to the public. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=1970
↑Destiny explains why his left-leaning audience would be able to have a healthy engagement with racially charged jokes. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3031
↑Destiny request for Kormantine to stop "talking at" him. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3261
↑ Kormantine tells Ahrelevant he's not black enough to stand beside Civil Rights protestors. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=8011
↑Kormantine requests for the white individuals on the panel to stop talking and let the African Americans speak on the subject. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=4077
↑Kormantine argues he would be able to have a discussion on this topic with Ahrelevant given that he is a fellow African American. He continues, asserting that white people are unable to be challenged by African Americans without getting frustrated. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3992
↑ Ahrelevant takes issue with Kormantine effectively silencing 75%(all the white people) of the panel. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=4352
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 1. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3005
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 2. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=2240
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 3. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=2713
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 3. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3064
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 4. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3261
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 5. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=2240
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 6. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=3261
↑Kormantine appeals to his own authority on the topic 7. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=4721
↑ Sexual acts vs Edgy Language, Hasan (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube. https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=9910
↑Lance exits the podcast, Destiny tells him to get fucked. Destiny. (2019, October 27). “I’ve never been more gaslit in my entire life...” - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More. YouTube.https://youtu.be/Hodq77NShaA?t=10601
, and Mark Zuckerberg's 
