Hasan and Destiny Break Up Over Kamala Misinformation: Difference between revisions
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=== Destiny discusses the debate on his stream, accuses Hasan of engaging in homophobia WIP === | === Destiny discusses the debate on his stream, accuses Hasan of engaging in homophobia WIP === | ||
Shortly following the conclusion of Hasan's stream, Destiny begins his. During his stream, Destiny goes over the debate, and expresses his annoyance with Hasan's behavior before and after the debate. | Shortly following the conclusion of Hasan's stream, Destiny begins his. During his stream, Destiny goes over the debate, and expresses his annoyance with Hasan's behavior before and after the debate. Destiny argues that Hasan had virtually no sources in the debate outside of a twitter thread on Harris, while he was able to find primary sources essentially proving every claim asserted by Hasan to be false. Destiny further remarks that the "Bernie or bust" mentality adopted by Hasan and his ilk, has more less become a movement dedicated to "relentlessly shitting on" other Democratic candidates instead of championing the ideals of Senator Sanders. | ||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=157 2:37] Destiny remarks that he has never adhommed Hasan before. | * [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=157 2:37] Destiny remarks that he has never adhommed Hasan before. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=193 3:13] A chatter explains that Hasan did not like the accusations of being a "larper". Destiny responds that he stands by this accusation, arguing that it was a valid criticism in the context of the conversation(Hasan stating he would not vote for Biden over Trump. | * [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=193 3:13] A chatter explains that Hasan did not like the accusations of being a "larper". Destiny responds that he stands by this accusation, arguing that it was a valid criticism in the context of the conversation(Hasan stating he would not vote for Biden over Trump. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=261 4:21] Destiny states he has never called Hasan "morally lucky". | |||
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| '''Was Destiny justified in comparing Hasan's argumentative style to that of a race-realist?''' || Destiny argues that this was justified, explaining that Hasan tendency to assert several points in an argument, have each point fall under the slightest of scrutiny | | '''Was Destiny justified in comparing Hasan's argumentative style to that of a race-realist?''' || Destiny argues that this was justified, explaining that Hasan tendency to assert several points in an argument, have each point fall under the slightest of scrutiny, and then attempt to harken back to the overarching argument, is eerily similar to the argumentative style employed by race-realists Destiny has debated. || | ||
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| '''Does Destiny's community treat Hasan too harshly?''' ||While Destiny admits that he typically walks away from conversations with Hasan feeling bad about his community's treatment of him, he points out that Hasan and his community have engaged in "4chan-levels" of harsh criticisms against himself, which Hasan has more or less implicitly endorsed. || | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=279 4:39] Destiny explains that he typically walks away from conversations with Hasan feeling bad about his community's treatment of him. Destiny explains that he has recently attempted to "flip" this mindset, and look at how Hasan's community treats himself after their conversations. Destiny notes that Hasan and his community have levied almost every criticism towards himself that Destiny has ever received from individuals on the right he has debated. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=307 5:07] Destiny reads a highly upvoted comment from Hasan's subreddit, and argues the contents are indistinguishable from a comment in a 4chan thread. | |||
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| '''Does Destiny need to take Hasan more seriously?''' ||Destiny concedes that he may have been overly dismissive of Hasan when they initially debated regarding Biden, especially after only researching a few of the talking points Hasan was incorrect on. Destiny explains that the resulting community feedback, and Hasan's own grievances, encouraged him to perform a more thorough research on Hasan's Harris video. || | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=366 6:06] Destiny concedes that he may have been overly dismissive of Hasan when they initially debated regarding Biden, especially after only researching a few of the talking points Hasan was incorrect on. Destiny explains that the resulting community feedback, and Hasan's own grievances, encouraged him to perform a more thorough research on Hasan's Harris video. | |||
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| '''Bernie and Bust''' ||Destiny argues that individuals who take on a "Bernie or bust" mentality tend to "relentlessly shit-on" other democratic candidates instead of championing the views of Bernie Sanders. || | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=517 8:37] Destiny explains his grievances with the "Bernie or bust" mentality. | |||
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| '''Hasan accuses Destiny of being biased in his research''' ||Destiny argues that Hasan's accusing him of being "biased" is unjustified. Destiny explains that Hasan had no sources outside of a twitter thread on Harris, while he spent the time to fact check the arguments made and locate primary sources. || | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=542 9:02] A chatter informs Destiny that Hasan thinks Destiny was "biased in his research because he wanted to be correct". | |||
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| '''Did Destiny employ a "shitty argumentative tactic" against Hasan?''' || || | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/oCsvkP_sVQw?t=675 11:15] A chatter provide Destiny a clip of Hasan accusing Destiny of employing "shitty argumentative tactics" typically reserved to debate individuals on the right. | |||
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Latest revision as of 16:06, 19 September 2024
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On July 7, 2019 Destiny and Hasan had a very heated discussion regarding American politician Kamala Harris, leading to their first major fallout. [1] Upon reviewing the underlying facts of the video(which Hasan states were sourced primarily from a Twitter thread on the candidate), Destiny found that "almost every single thing Hasan said in the video was either dead wrong or horribly stretched out of what's actually happening". While the two spent several hours debating these underlying facts, only a few of Destiny's grievances with the video were addressed. Furthermore, the debate was mired by several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny due to the poor quality headset/microphone setup Destiny possessed at the time.
Prior to the call's conclusion, Hasan accuses Destiny of gaslighting, strawmanning, and creating insane hypotheticals throughout the conversation. Hasan continues, stating he "hates this shit", discusses his disdain towards accusations of Moral Luck from Destiny's community, and likens talking to Destiny to trying to speak with Ben Shapiro . Destiny counters that every hypothetical posited during the conversation was provided with the specific intent of exploring a given topic, and offers to discuss any disingenuous debate tactics Hasan feels were used against him at a later date.
Shortly following the stream, both streamers created reddit threads detailing their feelings/takeaways from the discussion, and received their share of community feedback/criticism.[2][3] Following an onstream addressal by Destiny of both the conversation and reddit threads, both streamers cut ties with one another for some time. [4]
Destiny calls Hasan a Bernie Bro, apologizes later
Sometime around June 27, 2019 Hasan and his community(alongside several members of Destiny's own community), derided Destiny for calling Hasan a "Bernie Bro" and for claiming individuals like Hasan tend to exaggerate negative claims of presidential candidates other than Bernie Sanders . [5][6][7][8] Destiny, admitting he was not aware of the pejorative nature of the phrase, eventually apologized to Hasan.
On July 7, 2019, while on a flight, Destiny took it upon himself to review one of Hasan's videos, and discern whether it warranted criticism. The video in question was "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris", a twenty-five minute video by Hasan detailing his issues with Kamala Harris as a potential Democratic candidate. Following viewing the video, Destiny informed his chat of his intention to debate Hasan regarding the video's contents that night.[9]
Before | After |
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Kamala is cool: 16% Lukewarm on Kamala: 60% Hate Kamala: 24% |
Kamala is cool: 9% Lukewarm on Kamala: 43% Hate Kamala: 48% |
On the night of announcing his intention to debate Hasan regarding the contents of his Kamala Harris video, Destiny plays the video in its entirety for his stream. Prior to and after viewing the video, Destiny polled his audience(see right) to determine their favorability towards Harris. Following the poll's completion, Destiny found that his audience held a more disfavorable view towards Harris after viewing the video. Upon seeing the results, Destiny explains that he fact-checked every claim by Hasan made in the video, and ultimately concluded that Hasan was wrong in several instances and may have even created the video in bad faith. Destiny went on to chide Hasan for erroneously spreading disinformation about a potential democratic candidate during an election year.
I went through the claims on the video, because I was curious how much of it was maybe exaggerated a little bit, how much of it was completely correct, and then "was there anything in here that was wrong". When I started to go through the claims in this video about Kamala Harris, almost every single thing Hasan says in this video is either dead wrong or horribly stretched out of what's actually happening... Almost every single point, and it actually was like really frustrating to listen to. — Destiny on Hasan's You Don't want Kopmala Harris video. |
Destiny provides the following examples of bad faith critiques made by Hasan throughout the video:
Topic | Hasan's claim | Destiny's critique | ||||||
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ICE | Hasan claims that Kamala supported a law in 2008 that forced schools to refer undocumented students to ICE.
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Destiny explains that while he could find no information regarding the specific law Hasan is referring to, he was able to find information regarding a law established in that same year which allowed for illegal immigrants charged with a crime to be referred to ICE(with no mention of schools specifically referring students to the agency). Destiny goes on to explain that the law originated following an illegal immigrant being charged with the murder of three individuals, and that Kamala has recently stated that she regrets supporting the law. A chatter later asks if Destiny thinks this video is worse than any others critiquing Harris, given that Kamala is one of the "weirdest" areas of left-wing extreme bias. Destiny replies that it's not weird at all if one takes into account that people on the left hate cops, and that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
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Truancy policy | Hasan claims that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved "Lock[ing] innocent black mothers up for truancy". Hasan goes on to claim that Harris incarcerated a single, homeless mother of three working two jobs because her children were truants, and then touted it as a success story. Hasan went on to critique Harris for sending a "gestapo force" of intimidating officers(like homicide and gang detectives) to "scare the shit out of a homeless mother of three" into ensuring her children attended school.
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Destiny argues that while he remains unsure whether Harris' policy was a net good or bad, Hasan's framing of the policy(that Kamala was sending a "gestapo force" to bully homeless women into sending their children to school) was overtly negative, unfairly framed, and did not accurately represent the intent or outcomes of the policy. Destiny pointed out that Harris's policy was intended to address a real issue—truancy—which is linked to higher rates of criminal behavior and poor outcomes for children. He argued that Harris's use of legal pressure was a way to compel parents to take their children's education seriously and to connect them with resources that could help improve school attendance. Destiny maintains that this is a positive, albeit potentially harsh, intervention, rather than a draconian measure as Hasan implied.
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Should Kamala have addressed the issues differently? |
Hasan argues that Harris should have sought other ways to bolster individuals and address socioeconomic issues in her district that did not involve criminal prosecution.
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Destiny argues that as a District Attorney, Harris's primary responsibilities included law enforcement and public safety, and therefore, it was natural for her to use those tools to address issues like truancy. Destiny further argued that Harris did not have the the power to create social programs, allocate financial incentives, or directly address broader socio-economic issues. Destiny maintains that Harris's role was limited to enforcing the law and using legal measures to address problems within her jurisdiction. Destiny felt that Hasan's criticism did not fully account for these limitations, and that Hasan unfairly blamed Harris for not pursuing solutions that were beyond her control as a DA.
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Destiny spends the next hour of his stream fielding questions from his chat and expressing his overall disappointment with individuals in DGG defending Hasan's seemingly unfair position towards Harris, as well as Hasan himself for disseminating such misinformation. Throughout this portion of the stream, Destiny makes clear his regret towards previously making "blanket statements of hate" towards police officers, argues similar statements are a really poor way of making evaluations, and reiterates that Hasan's video could be boiled down to "I really hate cops".
Man, I really really regret all my previous tweets about hating cops, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have done it so much. I don't think it's good to just blanket hate cops, any more than it's good to blanket hate anybody. I don't think it's a good thing to do. I think there are a lot of shit fucking cops in the US and we have institutional problems with cops in the US, but it really blinds you to seeing anything in an objective manner, when you see a cop, and you instantly like hate every single thing associated with them. I don't know, I think it's a really bad way to go about evaluating a person. — Destiny on his prior statements regarding police officers |
Destiny goes on to express his disdain for statements such as "abolish all prisons", "getting rid of all police", and "all cops are bad", arguing such unproductive statements seem to be prevalent in much of left-leaning rhetoric surrounding crime and police officers. Destiny asserts that there is "two sides to the issue" and "some level of crime that [must be] addressed", which individuals like Hasan tend to refrain from acknowledging in their critiques. Before Destiny can continue his list of grievances, Hasan himself joins the call.
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Hasan joins the stream WIP
Approximately one hour into Destiny recounting of his grievances with Hasan's "You Don't Want Cop-Mala Harris" video, Hasan himself joins the stream.[12] Upon joining the stream, Hasan asks Destiny what his issues were with the video. Destiny responds by offering to go through every one of his grievances, and Hasan agrees. Of note, Destiny did not have access to his typical headset/microphone setup, and was unable to raise his voice throughout the debate as he was away from home. This, in conjunction with Hasan's personal refusal to use a headset, resulted in several instances of Hasan inadvertently speaking over Destiny. While Destiny had several grievances prepared to discuss with Hasan, the pair only managed to discuss four topics:
- Did Kamala force schools to report undocumented students to ICE?
- Truancy policy
- Did Kamala Harris Prosecute fairly?
- Do Kamala Harris's donors make her untrustworthy?
Did Kamala force schools to report undocumented students to ICE?
Destiny begins the conversation by informing Hasan that he feels his video is extremely one-sided against Harris, and not fairly presented. He goes on to address the first claim in Hasan's video: Whether Harris supported a law that forced school to report undocumented felonious children over to ICE. While Destiny agrees with Hasan that supporting the policy was a poor choice on Harris's part(especially given the law's allowal for individuals to be deported based on charges), Destiny informs Hasan that schools did not truly have any involvement in this reporting of individuals to ICE. Upon Destiny's explanation of the lack of involvement by schools in the law, Hasan quickly agrees that schools were not responsible for reporting these children.
Nonetheless, Hasan maintains that undocumented misdemeanant school children being deported without being charged remains an issue, especially if schools are the ones reporting these children to the police. Hasan then walks back his prior claim, and argues that schools should bear some of the blame for reporting these children to the authorities if they commited a crime. Destiny asks Hasan if he is able to understand the distinction between schools cooperating with authorities versus referring children directly to ICE, to which Hasan counters that an officer planted at a school with the capability of reporting a misdemeanant children over to ICE is not functionally different than the school themselves reporting the children. Destiny asks if Hasan's solution would be to remove police officers from schools, Hasan answers in the affirmative, and Destiny attempts to move on to the next topic. Hasan takes issue with this, and the following exchange occurs:
Hasan: Why are you just laughing and saying we need to move on?
Destiny: Because that's just so fucking stupid, what do you mean? Do you just want to kick all police officers out of schools? Hasan: What do you mean? What do I mean? Do fucking schools need to have cops everywhere? Destiny: Some do, yeah! What the fuck kind of statement is that, of course some do! Hasan: abu..uhh..WHAT? Why? Cops should not be in any schools! I feel like I've heard you debate people a million times over about how it's kinda fucked up that we have cops in schools to begin with...what the fuck? Destiny: I feel like you went to a really nice school and you have no fucking idea like how dangerous some places... Hasan: No I didn't. I went to school in Turkey and in really fucking shitty neighborhoods as well, we never had cops...It's mind boggling to me that Americans legitimately believe that we need police officers inside of schools. |
Throughout the conversation, Destiny posits several hypotheticals to Hasan(outlined below). In each hypothetical, an individual has the police phoned on them, and said individual would eventually be reported to ICE and subsequently deported. Following each hypothetical provided, Hasan's answer would involve some variation of removing police from said space, advising individuals to never call the police, or telling Destiny the hypothetical he provided is not comparable to the initial scenario involving school children.
Timestamp | Destiny's hypothetical | Hasan's response |
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25:49 | If an undocumented child was arrested in a mall for stealing, and then subsequently reported to ICE, would the mall be the one responsible for child being reported to ICE? | Hasan argues that this example is incongruent given that malls are public, Destiny responds that Hasan has it backwards and that schools are public and malls are privately owned. Hasan maintains his position irregardless, and argues that having police officers in a mall is way more reasonable than having police officers in a school. |
31:40 | A homeowner sees two individuals standing outside their home. The homeowner feels nervous about these individuals, so the homeowner calls the police. The individuals turn out to be illegal immigrants, and are deported. Is the homeowner responsible for this deportation? | Hasan responds that the homeowner would be responsible. Destiny then asks Hasan if he believes people should never call the police, to which Hasan replies that people should almost never resort to calling the police.
Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny's analogy is "terrible", as the homeowner is not associated with the strangers standing outside his home, unlike a school which would be responsible for the children that attend it. Destiny replies that he was attempting to explore the concept of complicity with Hasan rather than compare the two scenarios. |
32:59 | If a woman is raped by a hispanic person and calls the cops, is the women complicit in a deportation? | Hasan responds that the women would not be complicit, Destiny asks why, and Hasan responds that the women is being victimized by a crime and not a "random misdemeanor". |
33:17 | A women returning from a party starts walking home and is being followed by some people. The women gets nervous and calls the police, resulting in the two people following her to be arrested. These two people are illegal immigrants and end up being reported to ICE. Is that women playing a part in getting illegals deported? Should she not have done that? | Hasan responds that this is hurting his brain, and argues this hypothetical is incongruent with the initial scenario involving a school. Destiny informs Hasan that he's only positing these hypotheticals because Hasan said to never call the cops. Destiny concludes that Hasan doesn't feel truly feel this way, pointing to his hesitancy to respond to some of the hypotheticals.
After a pause, Hasan argues that while the women would be somewhat complicit in the immigrant being deported, it would be more understandable than a school calling the police on a child. |
36:07 | Someone breaking into a shed in your backyard. | Call the cops. |
Following the hypothetical involving a women returning from a party, Hasan goes on to state that he would never call the police if he was in any of the aforementioned scenarios, and would urge others to refrain from doing so as well. Destiny responds that this is among the most privileged arguments he has ever heard.
Hasan: I probably wouldn't [call the cops] and I would urge someone else to not do that as well, but it's more understandable and it doesn't really matter because under none of these circumstances are you under obligation of the person you are calling the cops on.
Destiny: You're giving me like one of the most privileged arguments I have ever heard in my entire life. You're literally telling me that if you're a women, and you're walking down the street, and you might be scared because people are following you, [you're saying that] it's pretty rude of you to call the cops, it's a pretty mean thing to call the cops. What if you have a person that lives in your neighborhood where there has been a lot of break-ins, what if you're somebody who has had their house broken into before and are worried that somebody is gonna do it. It's easy for you to say like "oh well you should never call the cops ever ever". I don't know if you've been in these situations, or you know people who have been in these situations, that's a pretty shitty thing to say to people that are maybe or actually fearing for stuff like that. Like I feel like that's really crazy like oh you should just never ever call the cops ever." Hasan: Why the fuck would you say it's a privileged argument? Dude ask the fucking people who live in poor neighborhood if they choose to call the cops in these circumstances or not okay? What are you talking about? Have you talked with a person who lives in a poor neighborhood? I'm confused right now. What? What? |
Following further deliberation, Hasan asserts that most poor individuals share his position on cops, and further argues that police do not truly increase the security in neighborhoods they monitor. This results in two more hypotheticals from Destiny before a seemingly fatigued Hasan asks what the main point of the discussion was to begin with. Destiny informs Hasan: Schools don't refer people to ICE, the police do when one is charged with a crime. Hasan concedes that Kamala did not force schools to report undocumented students to ICE, and he made a mistake in his video.
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Truancy Policy
Destiny and Hasan spent quite some time discussing Harris' Truancy policy, and whether Hasan unfairly framed the facts/circumstances surrounding the policy. Throughout the debate, Hasan maintains the same points asserted in his initial video; He argues that Harris instituted a harsh, punitive, and dehumanizing truancy policy towards low income and single-parent families which involved locking up the mothers' of these truants. Hasan further contends that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority when instituting this policy, and that a DA such as Harris should not have addressed the issue relating to truant children at all. Destiny routinely attempts to counter this talking point throughout the discussion, arguing that while he intuitively leans against the policy, Hasan's framing of the policy places Harris in an unnecessarily poor light. Destiny explains that Harris saw an issue in her district with children not attending school, and sought to alleviate the issue through the means she had available. Destiny goes on to explain that the best way to break the "cycle of criminality/poverty" would be to ensure children attended school, and argues that this issue would rightfully place the issue under Harris's purview with that in mind.
At one point during the discussion, Hasan argues that Destiny is blatantly taking a biased approach towards reviewing his content, and that such bias is tainting his perspective of the initial video. Destiny counters that Hasan has frequently shown his own biases towards the police/Harris, and points out that Hasan referred to the police as the "gestapo" in his video, and just stated he hates cops. Destiny continues, and asserts that several of Hasan's arguments were backed by invalid underlying facts(outlined here), and therefore any conclusions drawn from those pieces of information were also invalid. Destiny then points out that every time they attempt to move away from one fact in the conversation, Hasan reverts to some prior point(e.g. ICE and schools). Destiny goes on to assert that Hasan is arguing in a similar fashion to a race realist:
"This is like every argument I've ever had with a race realist who's like "well I think this thing", and it's like "well hold on like these underlying facts don't make sense". Then when you start to address some of the underlying facts, they keep retreating back to their higher level position ignoring all of the other underlying facts that were incorrect." — Destiny comparing Hasan's argumentative style to that of a race-realist |
Throughout the conversation, Destiny positied a myriad of hypotheticals to Hasan pertaining to whether the DA would be justified in stepping in to enforce their authority in scenarios where other institutions failed to do so, especially with regards to truancy and "state-violence". Hasan's response to these hypotheticals would more often than not be some variation of asserting the DA should do nothing, asserting that locking up mothers of truants is a poorer outcome than students failing to go to school, and arguing that other departments could handle the hypothetical issue presented without the use of state-violence(e.g. jailing individuals). To each of these rebuttals by Hasan, Destiny maintained that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system, and further lessens the likelihood they will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Destiny further argues that the government utilizes state-violence frequently to get people to act in the best interest of the state, and questions why Hasan has undertaken a "dumb libertarian mindset" with regards to truancy in this case.
The exact scenarios Destiny and Hasan deliberated on with regards to state-violence are presented in the table below:
Timestamp | Scenario/hypothetical | Hasan's response |
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1:04:52 | Destiny asks Hasan who he believes should be making kids to go to school. | Hasan responds that governments should use positive influences(e.g. better classrooms, basketball programs) to ensure kids stay in school. Destiny continues the hypothetical, and asks Hasan what should be done if the children continue to fail to go to school. Hasan retorts that Destiny has placed him in an "unrealistic corner", and reiterates his point that well-funded schools tend to see better children attendance rates. |
1:07:31 | Destiny restates his question regarding "who should make kids go to school", and if the state should force kids to go to school if they have lazy parents. | Hasan retorts that lazy parents should not have to force their kids to go to school in this "ridiculously created, hypothetical strawman." |
1:12:27 | Hasan proceeds to run through several hypotheticals wherein the DA could potentially enforce its authority to ensure some outcome is meant(e.g. locking up homeless people to prevent homelessness, or locking up drug addicts to prevent drug addiction) | Destiny responds that every example Hasan gave resulted in a poor outcome, while the example relating to parents of truants has shown to have a positive outcome. Hasan argues that individuals were robbed of their freedom at the choice of this "positive outcome", to which Destiny questions why Hasan is continuing to espouse libertarian talking points at him. Destiny explains that they're not talking about "freedom" but which policies could improve societies. Destiny continues, and argues that he likely would be in favor of "locking up drug users" if throughout the duration of their incarceration these individuals were provided treatment for their addiction. Hasan reiterates that the DA should "back off" and let other institutions tackle these issues. |
1:16:13 | Hasan asks Destiny if some repeat offending mothers of truants being sent to jail would upset him. | Destiny responds that under Harris's law, parents who made no efforts to send their children to school would eventually be jailed, and by that metric, he would be okay with those parents being sent to jail. Destiny further explains that as a taxpayer, he has a vested interest in seeing these children go to school, as it decreases the likelihood that they become a burden on the system and decreases the likelihood these individuals will be stuck in the cycle of poverty. Hasan retorts that having a parent at home is much more important thang going to school, to which Destiny responds that Hasan is incorrect. |
1:19:40 | If you're the DA and kids are starving to death, do you get CPS to take the kids? | Hasan responds that he would do nothing in this scenario, and allow other institutions to step in. Destiny argues that the children in Hasan's analogy would likely starve to death without the DA's assistance. |
1:21:06 | If you're the DA, and nobody else is dealing with the problem of kids starving to death. Should you send the police in to help the kids or do you let them starve to death? | Hasan responds that he would allow the children to starve. |
Following further deliberation, Hasan and Destiny remain ever-contentious on the issue of Harris's truancy policy. While Destiny maintains that the policy was justified given the fact that schools lacked the funding to address the issue and Harris saw a way to alleviate it, Hasan maintained that Harris overstepped the bounds of her authority as a DA and should have left the issue alone. The topic concludes with Hasan arguing that Destiny is "overwhelming him with ridiculous hypotheticals", and Destiny responding that every hypothetical he has provided is directly analogous with the situation Harris faced with Truants.
Discussion Timestamps | |
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Did Kamala Harris prosecute fairly?
During the discussion, Destiny and Hasan briefly discussed the "fairness" of Kamala Harris as a prosecutor. Hasan's argument primarily centered around a perceived quid pro quo between Steve Mnuchin and Kamala Harris. Hasan alleges that Harris refrained from prosecuting Mnuchin and his bank, OneWest, in return for campaign donations. After giving Hasan the opportunity to elucidate on this position, Destiny argues that Hasan's assertion is unfounded and a warped retelling of the true events which transpired. Destiny goes on to explain that Harris's failure to prosecute Mnuchin stemmed from a lack of legal jurisdiction to investigate federally chartered banks like OneWest. Furthermore, Destiny argues the donation Hasan is referring to was for a nominal amount of $2,000, and was given five years after the OneWest prosecution. Moreover, Destiny points out that Harris voted against the confirmation of Mnuchin as United States secretary of the treasury, lending even less credence to any possibility of a quid pro quo. Following this explanation, Hasan replies by denying the facts as laid out by Destiny:
Destiny:Tera Bradshaw said state attorney generals have no jurisdiction to investigate federally chartered Banks like Onewest, and that Banks like Onewest are regulated exclusively by the federal authorities. When one West pointed that out to the California Attorney General's office, they withdrew their subpoena. Onewest did provide some information to the Attorney General's office voluntarily, and they did not pursue the matter further...A former senior lawyer in the California Attorney General's office told Politico that staff were divided about the strength of the case, there were indicia of violations, no doubt, but whether we could prove those in court was the question... and as you said Kamela Harris voted against the confirmation of this guy for the treasury thing or whatever. So I don't understand where you're getting this idea that there was like some massive fuck up of her where she just decided not to prosecute because she block she fucking loves the big Banks or whatever. I don't see that anywhere, I didn't I could not find it.
Hasan: She never talked about why she decided not to prosecute or why the decision was made... She didn't even fucking allude to the fact that this had happened under her watch that she refused to prosecute. Also what you said about federal mandate is completely incorrect... The District Attorneys absolutely have the power when to prosecute when the victims are in their state. Destiny: Okay, it could just be that Politico is completely posting false information without correcting it then? I'm gonna side with Politico, I haven't looked into that. That maybe they just completely and totally lied about this, and Kamala Harris and the entire DA office was so stupid they didn't know they got bamboozled. |
Discussion Timestamps | |
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Do Kamala Harris's donors make her untrustworthy?
Following the previous topic reaching an unproductive conclusion, Hasan and Destiny spend the remainder of the call deliberating whether Harris's donors make her untrustworthy. Hasan's argument primarily centered around the fact that the majority of Harris's donors were big corporations, and points to this as evidence that Harris has no interest in "charging people in power". Despite Destiny arguing that this is likely the case for the majority of Democratic candidates, Hasan argues that this is precisely why he hates the Democratic party, and that Harris represents a continuation of "business as usual politics". Destiny counters this, arguing that Bernie Sanders , a candidate whom Hasan supports, also receives a significant amounts from large donors. Despite Destiny presenting data showing similarities in donation structures between Harris and Sanders, Hasan continues to argue that Harris's donor-makeup points to an issue of corporate influence in politics. Much of the topic was spent with the two silently mulling over donation statistics of the two candidates, and ended with both Destiny and Hasan agreeing to revisit the topic at a later date(interspruced between the two berating one another).
Timestamps | |
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Conclusion
Following Hasan informing Destiny that he's tired and hasn't eaten yet, Destiny agrees to cut the conversation short. Before ending the call, Destiny explains why he wanted to have this discussion:
I love you very much, we don't have to go through this whole thing but like initially...like a few weeks ago we got into a big argument because I said that I felt like people that hardcore pull for Bernie will pull shit way the fuck out of their ass to shit all over other Democratic candidates. I got a lot of heat from your community, and my community in regards to that, because apparently you look into people like Biden way more than I do, and I have no business saying something like that when i’ve only looked into a few points of yours that I just disagreed with. So when this Kamala Harris video came out, I decided to spend my three-hour flight looking at every single point of the video and most of these have been like pretty grossly misrepresented on like at least one point. So I mean like I guess that's just my frustration that there's like 35 minutes of like these totally random assertions. — Destiny on why he wanted to have this discussion |
Hasan asserts that Destiny is engaging in some of the most "insane fucking semantic arguments", is just upset because his community believes he knows what he's talking about, chides Destiny for accusing him of making arguments analogous to race-realists, and argues that this entire conversation was an exercise in exhausting him with hypotheticals. Destiny points out that Hasan in fact has been making the "insane statements", and points to earlier in the conversation when Hasan stated that a women worried about two illegal immigrants following her into an alleyway would be partially responsible for these individual's deportation. Hasan denies ever saying as much, and explains that while the women would be justified in doing so, he would never call the cops if he was in such a scenario.
Hasan proceeds to accuse Destiny of gaslighting, strawmanning, and creating insane hypotheticals throughout the conversation. Destiny replies that Hasan is being weaselly, and argues Hasan is giving a Trainwrecks answer by attempting to discuss what he would do in the hypothetical instead of actually addressing the scenario. Hasan replies he "hates this shit", discusses his disdain towards accusations of Moral Luck from Destiny's community, laments the tendency of Destiny's community to accuse him of cutting Destiny off during conversations, and likens talking to Destiny like trying to speak with Ben Shapiro . Upon the calls conclusion, Destiny offers to do a second debate on the subject should Hasan wish, and discuss any disingenuous debate tactics he feels were used against him during this conversation.
Timestamps | |
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Destiny and Hasan break up WIP
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ccvbmw/a_very_comprehensive_summary_of_events_leading_to/
Hasan addresses criticism following the debate, accuses Destiny of acting in bad faith, tweets his frustrations, and responds in reddit threads
On July 8, 2019, several threads(nearly all of which are now deleted) chiding both Hasan and Destiny for their debate performance appeared on reddit.[15][16] [17] [18][19][20]. Hasan took it upon himself to reply to several of these threads, and tweeted several criticisms towards Destiny relating to the argumentative tactics he feels were deployed against him during the debate. [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28][29] Shortly before a workout stream with Knut, Hasan sent a tweet acknowledging his tendency to interrupt Destiny during their debate, and a promise to wear headphones and refrain from "going on monologues" in the future. [30]
Upon returning from his workout with Knut, Hasan begins his stream and reviews the debate. During the stream, Hasan levies several criticisms towards Destiny, namely:
- A tweet to Destiny informing him leftists should refrain from criticizing one another. [31]
- Accusing Destiny of employing "dirty debate tactics", typically reserved for right-leaning debate opponents, against a fellow leftist. [32]
The stream continued for several hours, and ended with Hasan maintaining the same points asserted in his discussion with Destiny.
Destiny discusses the debate on his stream, accuses Hasan of engaging in homophobia WIP
Shortly following the conclusion of Hasan's stream, Destiny begins his. During his stream, Destiny goes over the debate, and expresses his annoyance with Hasan's behavior before and after the debate. Destiny argues that Hasan had virtually no sources in the debate outside of a twitter thread on Harris, while he was able to find primary sources essentially proving every claim asserted by Hasan to be false. Destiny further remarks that the "Bernie or bust" mentality adopted by Hasan and his ilk, has more less become a movement dedicated to "relentlessly shitting on" other Democratic candidates instead of championing the ideals of Senator Sanders.
Issue | Destiny's response | Timestamps | |||
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Was Destiny too harsh to Hasan? | Destiny argues that the worst thing he has ever said to Hasan was calling him a "Bernie bro". Outside of this, Destiny remarks that he has never unnecessarily ad-hommed Hasan before. Destiny further argues that he was justified in calling Hasan a "larper", especially given Hasan stated he would never vote for Biden over Trump. |
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Was Destiny justified in comparing Hasan's argumentative style to that of a race-realist? | Destiny argues that this was justified, explaining that Hasan tendency to assert several points in an argument, have each point fall under the slightest of scrutiny, and then attempt to harken back to the overarching argument, is eerily similar to the argumentative style employed by race-realists Destiny has debated. |
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Does Destiny's community treat Hasan too harshly? | While Destiny admits that he typically walks away from conversations with Hasan feeling bad about his community's treatment of him, he points out that Hasan and his community have engaged in "4chan-levels" of harsh criticisms against himself, which Hasan has more or less implicitly endorsed. |
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Does Destiny need to take Hasan more seriously? | Destiny concedes that he may have been overly dismissive of Hasan when they initially debated regarding Biden, especially after only researching a few of the talking points Hasan was incorrect on. Destiny explains that the resulting community feedback, and Hasan's own grievances, encouraged him to perform a more thorough research on Hasan's Harris video. |
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Bernie and Bust | Destiny argues that individuals who take on a "Bernie or bust" mentality tend to "relentlessly shit-on" other democratic candidates instead of championing the views of Bernie Sanders. |
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Hasan accuses Destiny of being biased in his research | Destiny argues that Hasan's accusing him of being "biased" is unjustified. Destiny explains that Hasan had no sources outside of a twitter thread on Harris, while he spent the time to fact check the arguments made and locate primary sources. |
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Did Destiny employ a "shitty argumentative tactic" against Hasan? |
|
Hasan submits a post to r/destiny WIP
https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cayg1e/if_destiny_wants_to_remain_morally_consistent_he/
Destiny responds to Hasan's reddit thread on stream, creates a reddit thread later that day WIP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsvkP_sVQw&t=4141s
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cbdj2w/on_bootyjudge/
Hasan responds on his stream, reviews debate one final time WIP
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cgsvav/effort_post_rdestiny_v_rhasan_piker_hate_threads/
References
- ↑ Destiny. (2019, July 9). Hasanabi And Destiny BREAK UP Over Kamala Misinformation. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLfAuWe3xho
- ↑ https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cayg1e/if_destiny_wants_to_remain_morally_consistent_he/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cbdj2w/on_bootyjudge/
- ↑ Destiny. (2019, July 10). Hasanabi And Destiny BREAK UP Aftermath. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsvkP_sVQw
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ccvbmw/a_very_comprehensive_summary_of_events_leading_to/ Credit to monkeyspammer23 for compiling these initial events in their reddit thread. Upon searching through both Hasan and Destiny's subreddits, it was likely several of these threads were deleted in both subreddits as their are scant references to either streamer in both subreddits on the dates mentioned.
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/c136to/hasan_appreciation_thread/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/c63ls0/in_regards_to_destinys_dismissal_of_hasans/
- ↑ https://rustlesearch.dev/?text=bernie%2Bbro&start_date=2019-06-27&end_date=2019-06-27&channel=Destinygg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cadm1a/incoming_debate_with_hasan/
- ↑ The image provided is a screenshot of Destiny posting the strawpoll to members of his chat. Following the closure of strawpoll.me, the links Destiny provided in these logs are now broken.
- ↑ Media:HasanDestinyKamalaChatterban.jpg
- ↑ Last Night On Destiny. (2024, February 7). Destiny Confronts Hasan For Twitter Misinfo, Bridge In FLAMES! | DEBATE BREAKDOWN. YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvKIFQ3yh-c
- ↑ x.com. (2024). X (Formerly Twitter). https://x.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1118544653920288769
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cah1w3/deleted_by_user/et9ozkq/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cah1w3/deleted_by_user/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cau9h7/hasan/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/caha90/destiny_hasan_postdebate_analysis/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cahxr2/hasan_interrupts_destiny/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cagi17/hasan_tonight/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cau7du/i_like_it_when_you_debate_people_on_the_right/etbrumr/
- ↑ x.com. (2024). X (Formerly Twitter). https://x.com/hasanthehun/status/1148239056368652290
- ↑ x.com. (2024). X (Formerly Twitter). https://x.com/hasanthehun/status/1148269687232319488
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/caha90/destiny_hasan_postdebate_analysis/et9jgeu/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply5.jpg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cahxr2/hasan_interrupts_destiny/et8w6a8/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply6.jpg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cagi17/hasan_tonight/et9o06z/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply4.jpg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/canf7z/hasan_dying_on_a_hill/et9tz58/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply3.jpg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/caofst/destiny_became_a_fencesitting_centrist_in_this/etaju1x/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply2.jpg
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/cah1w3/deleted_by_user/et9ozkq/ , https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply1.jpg
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/File:HasanBreakupHasanReply7.jpg
- ↑ x.com. (2024). X (Formerly Twitter). https://x.com/hasanthehun/status/1148350225146187776
- ↑ x.com. (2024). X (Formerly Twitter). https://web.archive.org/web/20190708194615/https://twitter.com/ModalSevenths/status/1148316817586368516 , https://x.com/hasanthehun/status/1148406319109378049
- ↑ Media: HasanDestinyBreakupDirtyDebateTactics.mp4