Hasan and Destiny break up over Edgy Language in private

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"I've never been more gaslit in my entire life..." - Destiny Debate ft. Hasanabi, TheSerfsTV, & More

On October 22, 2019 Destiny participated in a political panel hosted by MindWaves. The panel featured Hasan Piker, TheSerfsTV(AKA Lance), Pxie, Ahrelevant, Bastiat, Kormantine and Cole James Cash. Four topics were discussed during the panel, among these topics included a recent Canadian Election, usage of the n-word in private, the 2020 Democratic primary , and Mark Zuckerberg's secret meetings with Conservatives. The second topic, usage of the n-word in private, took up the bulk of the podcast's time and was by far the most tumultuous of the topics discussed. The fallout of this topic produced a meme, a manifesto, and resulted in Destiny and Hasan cutting ties with one another.

The debate

I gotta take a break from the insanity. Holy shit. I've never been gaslight so fucking hard before in a conversation. Like, oh my god, fucking Hasan and that J. Cole dude, and Andre, like all in here, like fucking riling on me so fucking hard. Making it insanely fucking personal, ad-homing the fuck out of me.... Holy shit, I have never been gaslight so fucking hard in a conversation in my fucking life. This is insane. I don't even know if the 1v5 conversations gaslight me this fucking hard. Holy fucking shit.

— Destiny three hours into the panel

The topic list disseminated to panel members prior to the podcast. Of note, the list contains no reference to the "n-word in private" topic.

Following the uneventful conclusion to the discussion on Canadian Elections, Mindwaves introduces the next topic: Usage of the n-word in private. The topic was allegedly introduced following requests from both Cole and Kormantine prior to the beginning of the podcast, as they were both seemingly eager to confront Destiny on the subject. Upon introducing the topic, several members of the panel, Destiny included, can be heard laughing. Of note, Cole James Cash can be heard verbally celebrating the topic's announcement, and Kormantine states "that's the only one I came here for... let's fuckin' go".

Destiny's position

Destiny argues that if one is not racist, is in a private setting, and is among individuals they know are not racist, making edgy jokes for shock value does not necessarily make them racist. Destiny posits a healthy engagement with such edgy-jokes is possible, much like it is possible for individuals to engage in violent video games without becoming violent themselves.

Throughout the podcast, several of Destiny's fellow panelists question why Destiny would make his stance on the n-word in private known to the public. They argue stating as much would negatively influence individuals who would otherwise be unable to separate the "shock-value" element of such humor from the "racial-element", and thereby causing these individuals to become racist. In response, Destiny contends that individuals in his audience who consume the array of progressive-orientated and inclusive topics he typically discusses, would not typically fall in the category of individuals taking such jokes beyond their shock value.

Destiny's position timestamps

1:51:36 Destiny states his main principle is maximizing for his own preferences through altruistic behavior. He explain that somebody informing him that they're uncomfortable with things stated in private, their comfort stops where his privacy begins. 1:55:14 Destiny explains the only two things he's concerned about is what people saying in public and how they vote. 1:55:47 Hasan states that Destiny's usage of the n-word in private will likely seep into his public life. Destiny responds that he only responds to this when pressured by individuals to discuss the topic. He explains it was originally discussed with conservatives to discuss acceptable behavior, and is now being used against him by left-leaning individuals. Destiny goes on to accuse the individuals on this panel of trying to dunk on him for "optics". 2:22:28 Destiny explains how one could have a vetting process for friends to say edgy-words in private around 2:39:59 Destiny states it is weird for individuals to question what he says in his private time. 2:42:59 Destiny explains there are some times where saying the n-word in private does have some harm, and explains when doing so would be problematic(e.g. saying it around a racist individual). 2:47:53 Hasan attempts to restate Destiny's position: "Under certain circumstances, consenting adults should be allowed to say the n-word in private.." Destiny cuts him off at this point, and informs Hasan that his position has always been about edgy jokes in private vs in public. Destiny goes on to lament the tendency of Hasan, and the other individuals on the panel, for making the argument purely about the n-word. 2:59:10 Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him. 3:02:51 Destiny points out that the two "pro-private language people"(himself and Ahrel) were the only ones who allowed Pxie to speak, meanwhile Kormantine, Cole, and Hasan took every opportunity to shut her down. Hasan accuses Destiny of being hypocritical.

Destiny vs. Hasan

Upon entering the call, Hasan is greeted jovially by Destiny. The two exchange some pleasantries regarding a hot-chip challenge Destiny had participated in, and briefly discuss their diminished communications as of late. Following this, Mindwaves Provides Hasan the opportunity to ask Destiny a few questions.

Timestamp	Hasan's Question	Destiny's response
1:23:04	Why do you not want people to say the n-word in public?	Destiny believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs.
1:24:54	Do you feel like discussing this position in public undermines your entire view?	Destiny argues that a miserable difference exists between proclaiming one tells edgy-jokes in private versus actually saying the edgy-jokes in public. Destiny likens this to informing someone they have sex with their partner versus graphically describing the acts.
1:25:35	Did you feel the need to elaborate on this position out of fear of someone leaking your use of this language in private?	Destiny replies that he has no worries regarding potential leaks, and explains that this is the stance he has had on language for several years. He continues, arguing that the only reason this is now up for debate is because he has a "whole new group of people" attacking him. Destiny concludes by stating the two areas he polices are, how people vote and how people act in public.
1:31:58	Hasan reiterates his prior question, asking Destiny if he believes announcing his use of edgy-language in private to the public may undermine his position on edgy-language in public.	Destiny explains that there is not likely genuinely racist people out there who stopped using racist language because of his point of view.
1:41:44	Hasan asks for Destiny to share a joke he would share in private using the n-word.	Destiny provides two different examples: A South Park joke involving Jeopardy. The story Donald Glover's friend tells him in a show. He explains that all these jokes lose their impact if the racial term isn't used.
1:47:43	Hasan questions why Destiny doesn't lie about saying the n-word in private if his ultimate goal is harm reduction and to avoid normalizing such language.	Destiny responds his ultimate goal is not harm reduction, but rather to see arguments to their logical conclusion with harm reduction being a byproduct of some of his positions.
2:01:12	Hasan asks Destiny if there's any use of the n-word bleeding into the public damaging his brand/reputation, and therefore not allowing him to maximize his own personal pleasure.	Destiny agrees that this is possible, but he values his independence above all.

Following each question,the exchange becomes progressively more heated as Destiny discovers that Hasan has joined the panel to assist Kormantine. To start, Hasan laudes Kormantine for his debate performance up until this point, and accuses Destiny of being unable to empathize with Kormantine's position on the subject due to his whiteness. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private.

The exchange continues, as Hasan accuses Destiny of emboldening alt-right rhetoric and "bellitting black people" with his position. Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes great issue with this framing, and informs Hasan that his debate opponents(primarily Kormantine and Cole), have routinely showcased a poor faith engagement with the topic and overall rude behavior to himself and members of the panel.

Throughout the discussion, Hasan's primary contention is that Destiny should never have announced his private use of the n-word to the public, and that his doing so runs the risk of normalizing the word. He further argues it to be counterintuitive to Destiny's larger body of progressive work, and damaging to Destiny's otherwise progressive brand. When presented with these arguments, Destiny would posit he values his independence above all else, and would not capitulate or lie about a position he has held for years.

Discussion Timestamps, Destiny vs Hasan

1:19:3 Hasan joins the stream, and sees Destiny involved in a heated exchange with Kormantine on the definition of "black". 1:21:03 Mindwaves gives Hasan some time to speak. During that time, Hasan is given the opportunity to ask Destiny some questions. Hasan and Destiny have a light-hearted exchange. 1:22:17 After yet another heated exchange between Destiny and Kormantine, Hasan compliments Kormantine on his "incredible [debate] performance". Hasan goes on to laude Kormantine for his debate performance, and informs him he has not lost the debate despite losing his cool. 1:23:04 Hasan asks Destiny why he doesn't want people to say the n-word in public. Destiny responds that he believes one should stay away from certain forms of racist humor in public, as it can further or embolden racist thought, hijacked by people with racist thoughts, and be used to further their own racist beliefs. 1:24:15 After Hasan asks Bastiat what his political affiliation, Bastiat proclaims himself to be a neoliberal. Destiny laughs at this proclamation, and welcomes his "liberal brother". 1:31:58 Hasan reiterates his second question. 1:32:37 Hasan asserts that genuinely racist individuals may feel emboldened by Destiny's position and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes issue with this, and argues his opponents have been the inflammatory ones. 1:33:46 Hasan informs Destiny that he has no way of empathizing with Kormantine's position on the subject. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private. 1:35:12 Hasan states that while the context in which the n-word is stated is important, saying you use the word "all the time" in private arguably eliminates the context. Hasan goes on to point to logs of Destiny using the word in DGG: "There are logs of Destiny using the n-word in wayhs we are exactly thinking of him using it". Destiny counters that his use of the word in dgg was at a time when he considered the chatroom to be a relatively closed space, and that he has changed on his stance on using the word on his platform. Destiny continues, asserting that other content creators(Badbunny) with more egregious usages of the word than him have been given a past, while he has been placed under much scrutiny despite the breadth of his progressive work. 1:36:54 Hasan jokes that he has never defended Badbunny outside of the time she groped him. 1:37:42 Pxie reiterates her belief that Destiny's stating his use of the word in private to the public is counterproductive. The two deliberate for some time. 1:41:02 Hasan asserts a particular image in most individual's minds occurs when they think about two white guys saying the n-word in private. Hasan goes on to remark that it is unlikely Destiny is saying the n-word around his black friends, as his one very public black friend(Trihex), had recently taken issue with Destiny's position on the subject. Destiny questions why Hasan would bring this up, and argues Hasan would walk back his entire argument if he could show Hasan a black friend he has said the word in private to. Destiny then accuses Hasan of trying to "score brownie points". 1:43:08 Hasan questions Destiny's use of the n-word even in joking contexts, asserting it is still problematic. Destiny counters that there are several examples of jokes that necessitate the use of a slur. 1:43:36 Destiny requests for Hasan to acknowledge that there are funny circumstances in which the n-word can be used. 1:46:28 Hasan questions why Destiny doesn't lie about his position. Destiny responds he doesn't wish to lie. Hasan repeats the question once more, and informs Destiny lying would assist in his goal of harm reduction. Destiny counters his goal is not harm reduction, but rather to follow arguments to their logical conclusion. 1:53:59 Hasan sarcastically questions why a progressive person of color would take issue with Destiny's position. 1:55:47 Hasan states that Destiny's usage of the n-word in private will likely seep into his public life. Destiny responds that he only responds to this when pressured by individuals to discuss the topic. He explains it was originally discussed with conservatives to discuss acceptable behavior, and is now being used against him by left-leaning individuals. 2:01:12 Hasan asks Destiny if there's any use of the n-word bleeding into the public damaging his brand/reputation, and therefore not allowing him to maximize his own personal pleasure. Destiny agrees that this is possible, but he values his independence above all. 2:01:47 Hasan asks Destiny if he believes racists would be emboldened by his defense. Destiny replies he does not believe so, and he should not have to make sacrifices to what he does privately. 2:02:18 Bastiat points to the irony of Hasan deriding Destiny for his private language while he uses Communist Russia symbology in his stream. Destiny agrees with Bastiat's perspective, and states he's now sold on Neoliberalism. 2:03:59 Hasan asks if Ahrelevant's would prefer if Destiny lied about his position. Ahrel responds he would not be comfortable with that, and points to how a content creator could face massive feedback if such logs were leaked if their public stance was being strictly against the word. 2:05:13 Hasan argues that moral consistency does not prevent one from damaging their brand(in regards to wanting Destiny to lie about his position. Hasan goes on to contend that moral consistency is only important for "internet edge lords". Destiny sarcastically responds that he would empathetic with Hasan's position if he personally didn't have any principles or values. Destiny goes on to chide Hasan for attempting to police his public language after Hasan had recently faced much controversy for expressing his desire to "eye-fuck" a veteran. Destiny goes on to point out that Hasan almost got "shit-canned" from The Young Turks for saying as much. 2:06:35 Ahrel explains that "not looking like a grifter" is very important, as one would be unable to trust any perspective from a grifter. Hasan takes issue with this perspective and the two deliberate for some time. 2:10:15 Pxie argues the n-word should probably not be used in private or public, nor say that it's used in private. 2:11:40 Hasan asks how Ahrel feels regarding usage of the n-word with the hard r in private. Destiny takes great issue with the framing of Hasan's question, and accuses him of trying to make Ahrel out to be a Candace Owens jr. 2:14:35 Kormantine informs Ahrel: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother". Destiny takes great issue with this statement, Hasan attempts to defend Kormantine. 2:26:32 Seeing Kormantine and Destiny embroiled in a heated exchange, Hasan jokes that Destiny is going to say the n-word several times in private after this conversation. 2:35:13 Ahrel draws a parallel between Hasan’s use of Soviet imagery and his stance that Destiny should avoid publicly stating he uses the n-word in private. Hasan counters that the difference between his and Destiny's perspective, asserting that destigmatizing the hammer and sickle is far more conducive to progressive ideals than normalizing the n-word. Bastiat takes issue and accuses Hasan of wishing to destigmatize mass murder. Ahrel also takes issue, and asks Hasan if he thinks people from Ukraine may take issue with the destigimization of such iconography. Hasan counters: "Do you think black people feel some type of way about the US flag?" 2:37:55 Hasan explains there is no political message behind using the n word, compared to Soviet Iconography, even if the Soviet Union has done some questionable things in the past. 2:38:41 Hasan contends that Destiny's private use of the n-word is leaking out in the public through his running of this defense, Ahrel counters that this could cease if Hasan simply stopped questioning him on it. Hasan counters in turn that Destiny could also refrain from advocating for the position. 2:45:10 Ahrel asks Hasan if he believes it to be morally okay for couples to perform rape-play,race-play or bdsm in private. Hasan answers in the affirmative and states he would even be okay with Destiny referring to his hypothetical black girlfriend as the n-word when they have sex. A visibly frustrated Destiny laughs and thanks Hasan for making his argument to say the n-word in private, and Hasan denies doing so. 2:46:23 Hasan states he has been trying to be nice to Destiny throughout the conversation, Destiny denies this and points to earlier in the call when Hasan accused him of belittling black people in private. Hasan denies this too, and Destiny has to stop himself from calling Hasan dumb before asking Hasan to restate his stance. 2:47:53 Hasan attempts to restate Destiny's position: "Under certain circumstances, consenting adults should be allowed to say the n-word in private.." Destiny cuts him off at this point, and informs Hasan that his position has always been about edgy jokes in private vs in public. Destiny goes on to lament the tendency of Hasan, and the other individuals on the panel, for making the argument purely about the n-word. 2:48:09 Hasan states that his argument is predicated on a soundbite from Destiny wherein he states he uses the n-word in private all the time. Destiny rejects this notion, and points to several times in the past that he has stated his overarching stance regarding edgy language in private. 2:48:36 Hasan claims to make edgy jokes in private that he would make privately. Destiny takes issue, and request for Hasan to define what an edgy joke is. Hasan claims his edgy jokes typically involve Italians, and Destiny decides to end the conversation right there. 2:53:21 Mindwaves apologizes to Kormantine for the call becoming a "shit-show", and allows him to say his farewell. Hasan says his farewell to Kormantine, and the two agree to talk about the discussion offline. 2:55:56 Mindwaves claims to disagree with the combative approach Cole and Kormantine took with Destiny on the subject, and Hasan takes issue. 2:56:49 Hasan begins to defend Lance's perspective, and Destiny temporarily mute the stream to inform his audience that he needs to take a break for his sanity. He claims to have never been gaslit so hard before, and that Hasan, Cole, and Kormantine have been very poor debate partners throughout the discussion. 2:59:10 Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him. 2:59:56 Hasan doubles down on his accusation of Destiny belittling black people. An increasingly frustrated Destiny offers to explain the situation to Hasan "real slow": 3:00:55 Destiny accuses hasan of joining the call explicitly to accuse him of "saying the n-word over and over again in private". Hasan offers to pull back this accusation if Destiny says otherwise, to which Destiny responds "I love black people". As Hasan and Destiny attempt to continue the debate, Mindwaves mutes both of them and requests for them to handle the subject on their own streams. 3:02:51 Destiny points out that the two "pro-private language people"(himself and Ahrel) were the only ones who allowed Pxie to speak, meanwhile Kormantine, Cole, and Hasan took every opportunity to shut her down. Hasan accuses Destiny of being hypocritical.

Accusations of belittling black people

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Hasan accuses Destiny of belittling black people.

At one point during the conversation, Hasan accuses Destiny of embolding racist individuals through his position, and belittling black people. Hasan would later deny saying as much, then doubled-down on the position when presented with the clip.

Timestamp	Description
1:32:37	Hasan asserts that genuinely racist individuals may feel emboldened by Destiny's position and "bellitting of black people". Hasan continues, and argues that Destiny has used argumentative tactics to enrage his debate opponents during the podcast. Destiny takes issue with this, and argues his opponents have been the inflammatory ones.
2:46:23	Hasan states he has been trying to be nice to Destiny throughout the conversation, Destiny denies this and points to earlier in the call when Hasan accused him of belittling black people in private. Hasan denies this too, and Destiny has to stop himself from calling Hasan dumb before asking Hasan to restate his stance.
2:59:10	Hasan laments Destiny's chat referring to him as bad faith. Destiny shares the clip of Hasan implying he was belittling black people, and accuses several individuals in the call of gaslighting him.
2:59:56	Hasan doubles down on his accusation of Destiny belittling black people. An increasingly frustrated Destiny offers to explain the situation to Hasan "real slow": Hasan entered the call accusing him of belittling black people Hasan denied saying so when it was brought up Destiny then shows a clip of Hasan accusing him of belittling black people Hasan proceeds to double down on the position
3:00:55	Destiny accuses hasan of joining the call explicitly to accuse him of "saying the n-word over and over again in private". Hasan offers to pull back this accusation if Destiny says otherwise, to which Destiny responds "I love black people".

Praising Kormantine

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Hasan taking the time to praise Kormantine for his debate performance. Hasan goes on to assure Kormantine he has not lost the debate.

Throughout the discussion, Hasan levied no major criticisms towards Kormantine nor engaged in any substantive discussion with the content creator beyond offering praise or backing his arguments.

Timestamp	Hasan's praise for Kormantine
1:22:17	After yet another heated exchange between Destiny and Kormantine, Hasan compliments Kormantine on his "incredible [debate] performance". Hasan goes on to and informs Kormantine he has not lost the debate despite losing his cool.
1:33:46	Hasan informs Destiny that he has no way of empathizing with Kormantine's position on the subject. Destiny counters there is no need for him to empathize in this case, as he doesn't say the n-word around Kormantine, and it is not Kormantine's business what he says in private.
2:14:35	Kormantine informs Ahrel: "Your blackness does not make you answerable here my brother". Destiny takes great issue with this statement, Hasan attempts to defend Kormantine.
2:26:32	Seeing Kormantine and Destiny embroiled in a heated exchange, Hasan jokes that Destiny is going to say the n-word several times in private after this conversation.
2:53:21	Mindwaves apologizes to Kormantine for the call becoming a "shit-show", and allows him to say his farewell. Hasan says his farewell to Kormantine, and the two agree to talk about the discussion offline.

Hasan's use of Soviet Iconography

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Bastiat derides Hasan for his use of Communist Russia iconography.

During the conversation, Bastiat, Ahrel, and Destiny point to the irony of Hasan lambasting Destiny for his use of edgy language in private while Hasan "fetishizes" Soviet iconography on his stream.

Timestamp	Description
2:02:18	Bastiat points to the irony of Hasan deriding Destiny for his private language while he uses Communist Russia symbology in his stream. Destiny agrees with Bastiat's perspective, and states he's now sold on Neoliberalism.
2:35:13	Ahrel draws a parallel between Hasan’s use of Soviet imagery and his stance that Destiny should avoid publicly stating he uses the n-word in private. Hasan counters that the difference between his and Destiny's perspective, asserting that destigmatizing the hammer and sickle is far more conducive to progressive ideals than normalizing the n-word. Bastiat takes issue and accuses Hasan of wishing to destigmatize mass murder. Ahrel also takes issue, and asks Hasan if he thinks people from Ukraine may take issue with the destigimization of such iconography. Hasan counters: "Do you think black people feel some type of way about the US flag?"

Sexual acts in private vs Edgy Language in private

At one point during the conversation, Ahrel asks Hasan if he believes it to be morally okay for couples to perform rape-play,race-play or bdsm in private. Hasan answers in the affirmative and states he would even be okay with Destiny referring to his hypothetical black girlfriend as the n-word when they have sex. A visibly frustrated Destiny laughs and thanks Hasan for making his argument to say the n-word in private, and Hasan denies doing so.

Fallout

Destiny's Manifesto

Main Article: Clarifying some previous events

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The video published on Destiny's YouTube where he goes over the manifesto with DGG.

On Oct 24, 2019, Destiny posted on his subreddit laying out the series of events which transpired leading up to and during the 'N-word' and 'Private vs. Public language' debate on the Big Brain Podcast. The video primarily consists of Destiny recounting these events, with the majority of the time focused on Destiny's irritation with Kormantine and Cole's behavior during the debate. Destiny also addresses Hasan, and takes great umbrage with his defense of Kormantine, and overall bad-faith engagement with the topic during the debate.

Timestamps

Timestamp	Topic
00:00:40	Transparency, consistency, views
00:18:36	Extreme Left joking about violence
00:23:28	Manifesto Introduction
00:24:47	Clips taken out of context
00:27:11	Kormantine and Cole
01:54:59	TheSerfsTV
01:58:50	Hasan
02:12:58	Badbunny
02:14:20	Mike from CCP
02:21:05	Allebrelle
02:34:20	Trihex
02:44:38	Conclusion

Hasan's reaction

Main Article: What a weaselly little liar, dude

While Destiny went through his manifesto, Hasan reacted on his own stream. At one point, Destiny notes that he, unlike Hasan, would never lie to a black person(in this case Trihex). Destiny also calls Hasan performative, and, in a culmination of both of those things, sends Hasan into a desk-slam rage.

What a fucking liar, dude. What a fucking weaselly little, liar, dude. What a fucking, weaselly little liar, dude. Holy shit, dude. Holy fucking shit, dude. Literally lying. Still lying to his audience. Can someone at least fucking enlighten Destiny that he's literally lying to his audience? What a fucking piece of shit, dude. Holy fucking shit, dude.

— Hasan Piker