Lav

Lav
Kalea Little
Personal Information
Status Retired Political Alignment Republican Tradwife Age 27 Qualifications Billie Eilish liked one of her songs Occupation Rage-baiter (Retired) Country of Origin USA
Online Information
Website Substack Wikipedia Lav (singer) X phemoid Instagram lavlune
DGG Links
RustleSearch phemoid pheemoid Destiny Awards 2022 Brainlet OTY

Lea Jane, also known as LavLune—or more commonly Lav—is a singer, TikTok content creator, feminist and former current former soon-to-be current OnlyFans content creator. She gained notoriety as one of the most contentious orbiters to appear on Destiny's stream.

Her initial on-stream discussions focused primarily on her unique perspective on sex work debates as a former OnlyFans model. However, her proclivity to take strong positions on certain topics, coupled with a tendency to quickly reverse her positions and apologize post-debate, plunged these discussions into controversy. This behavior attracted severe criticism from much of Destiny's community, especially the subreddit members, which resulted in many "meta" discussions on how Destiny moderated his community. Lav frequently accused Destiny of creating an environment that antagonized his community against her, attributing this partly to his failure to moderate criticism of orbiters and his on-stream critiques of her, which also received negative reactions from the subreddit.

She was eventually found assisting former orbiter MrGirl in developing a massive manifesto, wherein Destiny was accused of fetishizing the conflict which occured on stream between individuals he had been intimate with. Lav was temporarily excised from the community as a result of her assistance in the manifesto, and eventually ended her friendship with MrGirl. She has changed her username many times, and currently goes by "impishlly" "phemoid".

On November 27, 2023, Destiny claimed to have somewhat mended the bridge between himself and Lav (with some stipulations regarding what they may discuss). Lav was permitted to appear on panels with Destiny (e.g. Kick or Keep), but any conversations related to personal issues/grievances the two may have were not permitted.

As of February 21, 2024, Lav has been blacklisted once again as a result of her appearances on jstlk's streams and consistent toxic behavior.

On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas

Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav

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Destiny Moderates MrGirl vs Lav Debate (Gaslighting, Boundaries, Abuse).

On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in, Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionally dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position.

While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation.

Debate Highlights (Destiny reacting to a vod of MrGirl and Lav)

0:30 Lav calls into MrGirl's show. 1:55 Lav tells MrGirl "The way you feel about Steven Crowder is how I feel about you." And that she feels dread looking at him. 9:06 MrGirl calmly tells Lav to shutup. 9:36 Lav accuses MrGirl of getting mad at Destiny for not taking a "deliberate stance" about him. MrGirl says he does not care about the reasons but does care about the lack of a stance, to which Lav accuses MrGirl of lying. 15:11 Lav describes how she "molds" her husband to take care of her, and makes the claim that MrGirl does the same with his girlfriend. Lav goes on to describe MrGirl as unintentionally "skeevy" in the way he goes about this molding. 20:35 When asked what she (Lav) would do if her partner was crying or facing emotional turmoil in another room, Lav replied that she would try to ignore her partner and later express her frustration with them once they've calmed down. 25:30 Lav accuses MrGirl of "over-indexing" boundaries because he is bad at establishing them. MrGirl counters that Lav does train people, and accuses her of wanting him to use emotional/physical withdrawal to "train" his girlfriend (which he describes as abusive). Lav then accuses MrGirl of using her as a punching bag to vent his frustrations about Destiny. 29:50 Lav joins the call. Destiny offers her some advice, telling her she must be "very chill" in order to challenge someone, particularly MrGirl, on their behavior. 33:31 Lav states she "would never date a man who cries". 37:50 Destiny expresses his frustration about not being able to follow along with what is going on in the conversation. 49:50 Destiny offers some critiques of MrGirl. He notices that MrGirl never asks clarifying questions to discern what his debate opponent is thinking. 54:50 MrGirl's accuses Lav of being abusive after she brings up his traumatic childhood. Lav responds that she only brought up MrGirl's mother because she believes he is subconsciously attaching opinions to Lav she doesn't truly believe. 58:09 Lav tells MrGirl he is coming off as very uncharitable and aggressive. MrGirl responds that she is doing the same. 1:06:38 Destiny agrees with a statement Lav made in the call, that MrGirl tends to go "really hard" when he sees someone show weakness in a conversation.

After watching the vod, Destiny decided to invite Lav onto his stream to offer her some debate advice. Soon after, MrGirl joined the call, and Destiny moderated a debate between the two. With Destiny's assistance, the two were able to clearly lay out their positions. Despite this, the debate still became quite heated, and both debaters maintained the same positions they entered the call with.

Debate Highlights (Destiny moderating a debate between MrGirl and Lav)

1:10:08 Lav joins the call, and Destiny asks her what the goal of the conversation she had with MrGirl was. 1:16:11 Lav points out that she noticed MrGirl's chat calling her a "demon" and questioned if his audience was composed of incels. 1:19:30 Lav claims that MrGirl positions himself to be some "all knowing god". 1:25:21 Lav tells Destiny what she "got cancelled" for, she goes on to describe how she took issue with a video saying "it's weird when a women feels connected to their vagina". 1:57:31 Shortly after MrGirl joins the call, the three agree to have a debate with Destiny moderating. 2:00:29 Lav asserts her position in the conversation was: When an individual feels themselves becoming emotionality dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. 2:01:56 MrGirl provides a counterargument to Lav's position: When an individual in a relationship creates emotional/physical distance as a result of their partner's actions, the partner may feel abandoned. 2:18:05 Destiny asks MrGirl if he thinks he could've done anything better in the conversation. MrGirl does not respond, and instead accuses Destiny of running defense for lav. 2:24:50 Lav states that the line between "being abusive" and "not being abusive" is intent. 2:30:57 Lav attempts to apologize for bringing up MrGirl's mother in their previous convo, Mrgirl is quick to cut Lav off and accuses her of changing the subject and being an abuser. 2:33:42 Lav tries to explain to MrGirl that they come from very similar background and are the "same person" in many ways, while Destiny begins to play the piano. For the next hour and a half MrGirl and Lav engage in a cycle of attempting to debate the aforementioned partner crying in another room scenario, and occasionally get sidetracked by Lav talking about her personal life or getting frustrated with MrGirl. This all occurs while Destiny fruitlessly tries to get the two to engage meaningfully, cut between him playing the piano. Nothing is accomplished in the conversation, and nobody moves from their prior positions.

Destiny reacts to a panel featuring Lav

On August 6, 2022, Chudlogic hosted a panel to discuss sex work and OnlyFans. Among the guests on this panel included Merrick Deville, Wickedsupreme, and Lav. Destiny had chosen to watch this panel because he was interested in Lav's perspective as an individual who quit creating OnlyFans content as a result of her interactions with MrGirl.

Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate

On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, accusing him of misunderstanding the financial struggles of sex workers when comparing them to other professions like doctors. The two discussed the societal implications of sex work (particularly on platforms like OnlyFans), it's role in the dehumanization of women, and the tendency for it to set unrealistic beauty standards. They debated the role of personal responsibility in women who choose to partake in sex work, with Lav pointing to the potential negative impacts of sex work on society, while Destiny argued that the issue lies more with societal engagement and overindulgence in technology rather than with sex work itself.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from the panel include: 1:40 Lav makes the claim that subscribing to an OnlyFans content creator's page is the equivalent to monetizing women's oppression. She goes on to say that women utilizing OnlyFans is a net negative for society as a whole. Destiny counters that women capitalizing on men's desires in such a way that allows them to earn a living is not necessarily a negative thing. 4:13 Lav states that sexual oppression is a big theme for women, a women's value is tied to their age ("once i'm thirty i'm fucking dead to this world"), and men don't have these issues. Destiny, noticing that Lav just shotgunned out three topics, decides to dissect each point individually. Destiny asks if it's possible for a women not to be sexually oppressed while still capitalizing on their sexuality, and highlights a parallel to men feeling useless at younger ages (men being valued for experience/money which comes with age). 6:54 Lav asserts that a man can never fully grasp the experiences of a women much like how a white man "can never fully grasp the experience of a black man". Destiny responds that the same can be said for women trying to grasp the experiences of a man. Lav then takes the conflicting position of being a feminist and gender abolitionist. 8:53 Destiny asks Lav: "If a women chooses to take pictures of herself, sell them online, and there are men who choose to purchase those images because they enjoy it, where is the oppression in that interaction?" To which Lav responds "when you add money to something, especially a body, you dehumanize it..." Destiny responds that this "dehumanization" is unavoidable and an unfortunate reality due to locality issues (i.e. it's easy to see someone as less human if they are online). 12:52 Lav makes the claim that "50-60% of men see themselves escalating porn, and the algorithm favors violent porn, most of sex is degradation or violence against women..." 16:17 Lav makes the argument that the "problem is not porn, it's the unregulation of porn... we should go back to a playboyesque thing with still-images... porn is out of control". Destiny responds that this issue is not directly a cause of porn, and more related to a societal issue with regards to individuals seeking the quickest "dopamine hits"(citing people obsessively browsing reddit or TikTok) through unfettered access to technology.

Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel

On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, Dan, Sneako, and MrGirl, to discuss several topics including OnlyFans, sex work, AI porn, and Dogwarts. Much like her prior appearances, Lav takes the position that sex work is a net-negative to society and should be heavily regulated. As there are multiple sex-workers (TafTaj and Jenavive) on the call, much contention arises. This conversation quickly becomes heated as multiple "shit-stirrers" are present in the call.

Debate Highlights

Highlights from this panel include: 31:30, MrGirl chooses to bring up Lav, stating that she advertises her OnlyFans by saying on streams that it harms her. Destiny is quick to point out that she deleted all but one post on her OnlyFans. 35:51, MrGirl says he banned Lav from his discord for sexualizing minors (she posted pictures of herself as a child and asked for "tributes"). 46:02, Dan and Lav join the call. Lav takes issue with MrGirl claiming she sexualized minors, and banning her from his discord. 1:28:19, Lav states that the sharing of nude images between partners is problematic (shortly after stating she is not sex-negative). 1:39:24 Destiny provides the example of Portugal, a country that decriminalized all porn, and saw the rates of sexual assaults fall. He goes on to say that no such study exists linking the increase in the consumption of porn to an increase in sexual assault, to which Lav responds: "look for it, it's there, I promise..." Destiny rebukes that he has "looked for it" and found the opposite to be true in every study (i.e. consumption of porn in fact reduces chances for sexual assault). 1:41:03, Lav states she is only acting emotionally because MrGirl is in the call, and has not taken any extreme positions. Destiny is quick to point out her earlier argument that couples should not take nudes of one other. Lav then denies ever taking this position, and accuses everyone in the call of lying. 1:53:32. Lav asserts that a "rape fantasy is fucking ridiculous", and that indviduals should refrain from engaging in such behavior as they are making a mockery out of victims. When questioned on this belief by multiple members of the panel, Lav asks "why would someone even have a kink like that?" 1:59:44, Lav says the patriarchy has made an example out of Jenavive (after Jenavive states she "enjoys being looked at" sexually). Others on the panel point out that Lav has repeatedly handwaved Jenavive's arguments. 2:02:25, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 2:09:16, Lav provides incite into why she thinks OnlyFans subscribers do not care about the models they subscribe to. She cites a personal story involving her stay at a hospital and her subscribers being irritated by a lack of content.

Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream

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PURE CHAOS Destiny, Lav, Brittany, MrGirl & Dan Drama Panel.

On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another (primarily between Brittany and Lav). The "panel" initially started as a one on one discussion between Destiny and Lav, wherein she had many negative things to say about Brittany Simon. The conversation quickly devolved into a shouting match as more orbiters elected to join the discord call, and known shit-stirrer Dan contributed to the chaos. During the conversation, Lav and MrGirl try to convince a very high Brittany that her method of operating her Patreon and the “levels" system she utilizes are harmful. However, the disparate ways in which MrGirl and Lav present their messages leads to conflict between the two. By the end of the conversation Lav agrees with Brittany that she is smart enough to know what she's doing, and is truthfully engaging in harm reduction (Destiny argues that she likely states this to spite MrGirl).

Debate Highlights

‌Highlights from the panel include: 0:56 Lav calls Brittany Simon a very irritating person and a blatant narcissist. 7:30 Lav clarifies that when she says "sex work is bad" she really means "sex work is bad for me", and emphasizes that she isn't suggesting that women should quit sex work in society. 12:58 Lav describes herself as "very dogmatic". She adds that she asserts her answers as correct for any topic, even if she has limited knowledge about it. She goes on to describe her "unintentional" tendency to state her opinions as prescriptions/fact. 19:15 Lav accuses Destiny of being a terrible advocate for open relationships, citing dramas involving Chaeiry and Dan. 32:18 After stating her contentions with Open relationships Lav describes her "discord husband" whom she constantly sexually harasses. She goes on to say such flirting is within the boundaries of her relationship. 35:00 Lav says she's worried about how Brittany utilizes her platform, and states she may lead women to "being alone at 30" with the lifestyle she advocates for. She also describes Brittany as thinking of herself as the most enlightened person in the world, and thinks she may have Bipolar Disorder. She goes on to say that Brittany might be running a sex cult. Destiny takes issue with these accusations and is forced to defend Brittany. 42:18, Lav describes all the things about Brittany that disgust her: the way she propositions herself above the people she attempts to assist through her "levels" system, the paywall to her "mental health” content, and the sexual content she offers of herself. 1:01:03, Brittany enters the call (high on weed). Lav reiterates that the potentiality for harm (towards women) with sex work is too great. She also states that the harm towards men, parasocially, is also great. She asks Brittany what expertise she's basing her "levels" system off of, and accuses Brittany of basing the system off her mental illness. Lav goes on to say she would never "prescribe" anyone (despite saying she inadvertently prescribes solutions to people earlier). 1:10:25, MrGirl joins the call to assist Lav (MrGirl is not fond of Brittany). 1:22:00, MrGirl takes issue with Lav's approach at debating Brittany and the two argue for some time. Brittany meanwhile expresses confusion with Lav's hatred towards her, as she has never interacted with Lav before this call. 1:24:35, Mrgirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 1:37:15, Lav expresses her frustration at being forced to deal with MrGirl "training" her and Brittany acting like a child. The three argue for some time regarding Brittany's level system, and the way she operates her Patreon. 2:33:51, Lav and Brittany roleplay one of the "personal talks/journey through the levels" that Brittany offers on her Patreon. 2:44:29, MrGirl tells Lav to shut the fuck up. 3:22:37, Lav apologizes for her earlier behavior, concedes Brittany is "smart enough to know what she's doing", and thinks Brittany is actually engaging in harm reduction (she likely states all this to spite MrGirl).

Dan discusses a leaked recording of Lav trash talking Destiny

On August 12, 2022, Dan shed some light on a leaked recording involving Lav. This conversation occurred on ChudLogic's channel, and lasted around sixteen minutes. The conversation begins with a content creator in Chud's community, Kuihman, alleging that Lav lied about an individual stalking, calling the FBI on her, and posting a photo of her house on a private server. This all occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends.

Dan, Chud, and Kuihman go on to listen to a leaked call wherein Lav stated that Destiny wanted to suck her husband's cock, and that she would never sleep with him. In the call, Lav calls Destiny a "cheese-boy", elf, and troll-man. Dan says there are two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Discussion Highlights

0:56 Chud discusses why he is still on twitch. 5:38 Chud and Dan begin discussing Lav. 6:43 The creator of the video, Kuihman, alleges that Lav lied about a case where an individual was stalking her, and calling the FBI on her. Kuihman goes on to describe how the only thing that substantiated Lav's claim was her calling the FBI on this individual, and the individual posting a photo of her house on a private server. He qualifies that all this occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. 8:55 Kuihman describes how Lav got into a voice call after a conversation with Destiny and stated that he wanted to suck her husband's cock, and she would never sleep with Destiny. 11:30 Chudlogic plays the leaked call. 14:00 Dan describes two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.

Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel

Lav's dog of choice for Dogwarts

On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the conversation for half an hour before he got bored. During the call Lav confronts Kuihman over some alleged discord harassment campaigns he and his friends had organized against her.

Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs (her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd.

Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips

From left to right: Destiny, KaiClips, and Lav debating pornography.

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Talk w/ Lav about sex work, Lav’s beliefs; KaiClips and Lav debate pornography. Video now deleted

On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server.

During the discussion, Lav expresses her mixed feelings towards radical-feminism, explaining that she disagrees with several of its tenets while agreeing with some. She goes on to confess her lack of concern for transwomen's feelings, specifically mentioning she doesn't care if they don't want to be referred to as male. She also criticizes transwomen for discussing feminist issues related to female socialization. Destiny took issue with Lav's rhetoric, warning against taking more "provocative" positions that may lead to social media backlash and a toxic community.

On feminism, Lav identifies her main issue with radical-feminism being its perceived masculinization of women. She labels herself as a cultural feminist, explaining that she aims for a society that emphasizes women's inherent qualities. Destiny argues that Lav's views might stem from a previously "unexamined life", making her vulnerable to new and abstract concepts. He points to her relationship with her appearance and her previous OnlyFans involvement to illustrate his point.

On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav responds by suggesting casual sex should be restricted to friends, arguing it is the "greatest display of physical intimacy that you can have with somebody". Regarding sex-work, she criticizes the harmful content in porn (i.e. rape-play/bdsm) and its accessibility to children. Finally, Lav believes women can't give informed consent in the current scope of sex work, but she'd accept it in a perfectly equal society.

Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue.

Debate Highlights, Destiny vs Lav

11:54 Lav states that she disagrees with a lot of radical-feminism. She goes on to say that unlike radical-feminists, she is against the patriarchy. 12:56 Lav asserts she does not care about optics when discussing feminism with a trans-women. She argues that she will not spare "male-feelings", and does not care if a transwomen does not wish to hear they are male. Destiny, noticing that Lav has made some fairly transphobic remarks, then attempts to bring Lav down from this position. 13:45 Destiny recommends to Lav that she refer to a transwomen's upbringing as "being socialized as a male" as opposed to "man vs women". 14:13 Lav says the first time she was catcalled was at 6 years old. Destiny responds with his understanding of this position, but qualifies that he simply wants Lav to dial back on her rhetoric. He warns against the social media and community consequences. 17:33 Destiny posits an example to Lav: Imagine if he and Chaeiry were in an argument, and another individual joins and sides with Chaeiry. If Destiny were to say this individual was only siding with Chaeiry because she is black, it would be the equivalent to Lav saying she's being mistreated for being the only biological women on a panel with transwomen. Destiny then expresses his understanding of Lav's enjoyment in arguing online, but tells her it's far more enjoyable to argue about ideas rather than putting out fires due to poor rhetoric. 27:39 Lav states her primary disagreement with radical-feminism is the masculinization of women. She goes on to describe herself as a cultural feminist, citing a desire to live in a society where the inherent (nature/nurture) qualities of women are emphasized. Destiny responds that Lav has likely lived (up until a few months ago) a relatively philosophically unexamined life. Lav immediately disagrees and goes on to describe how philosophically charged her life is, before Destiny cuts her off and finishes his initial thought. He responds that a person in her position may be extra susceptible to any new and abstract ideas they hear. 41:58 Destiny describes to Lav the concept of figuring out a fundamental position. The crux of Destiny's argument is that Lav is allowing "the engine around being a women" to be driven entirely by forces external to herself. 51:37 Lav talks about her relationship with her mother, how she became a "god" and she'd go to her mother whenever she had a question (i.e. if her brain was going to fall out). She goes on to describe how her mother calling her "evil" or a "liar" caused her to self abandon as a result. 1:04:13 Destiny asks Lav is she likes to be pretty, or be treated like a pretty person. Lav has trouble answering the question, and eventually Destiny decides to move on. 1:14:53 Destiny asks Lav where her ideas of masculine vs feminine roles come from. Lav responds it's the ability to "create life", and that men are more predisposed to allow others to take care of "that life". Destiny then asks Lav what she thinks of a women who wants to be an engineer and have kids. Lav responds it's fine, but not the norm. 1:17:10 Lav pokes fun at transwomen, stating there are some men who really want to be mothers. Destiny then asks Lav to dial back on the transphobia. 1:18:44 Lav says women are more important than men, but acknowledges they need one another. 1:20:50 Destiny asks Lav how she views sexual interactions between a man and a women, he inquires whether Lav thinks one side is more powerful than the other in the interaction. Lav responds that due to the absence of good maternal relationships with men's mothers, and porn, a lot of sex feels like it's being done to women. She goes on to point out inherent physical differences between the two sexes, stating "one can kill the other with their bare hands". Destiny asks Lav what prescriptions she could give to address this dynamic 1:24:13 Lav says she does not believe in casual sex (with strangers), however she believes people should be having more sex with their friends. 1:31:00 Destiny begins questioning Lav on her sex-work positions. Lav discusses her ideas about an OnlyFans driven towards "being an older sister" to women who are interested in becoming more sex-positive. 1:50:42 Destiny provides the example of sweatshops in China, and segues it into an example of the morality of sex-work in modern day society. 1:55:11 Lav states that if women were abusing men at the same rate, she would not have a problem with BDSM. 2:02:50 Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with.

During the same stream, Kai Clips joins the call to debate pornography with Lav. While both oppose pornographic content, Kai feels Lav doesn't articulate her stance well. The primary distinction is that Lav thinks pornographic content could exist in a scenario where parties give perfect consent, but Kai believes it shouldn't exist at all.

Debate Highlights, Lav vs KaiClips

2:22:37 KaiClips enters the call. Kai utilizes a baby filter to avoid any sexualization from Lav. He goes on to call Lav a succubus. He accuses Lav of making the argument against porn in the least convincing and most irrational way. 2:25:27 Kai describes his position, stating pornography is harmful both secularly and morally. He points to the pornography industry normalizing harmful acts, and the ability to consume pornography. He goes on to say that Lav did initially make these arguments, but qualified that women just need to give more consent, and run porn companies. 2:28:00 Kai elaborates, he does not care for the consent of parties involved in the creation of porn, and finds the depiction of content such as rape and incest to be harmful. Lav is unsure how this conflicts with her previous points. 2:29:38 Destiny attempts to clarify the difference in Lav and Kai's positions. Kai believing porn can exist in no form, while Lav believes it can. The two then debate for some time the feasibility of banning all porn. Kai believes pornography should be labled a public health crisis, while Lav attempts to convey to Kai such argument are futile. 2:39:24 Lav points out that most porn is not abusive to women in the traditional sense. 2:42:51 Lav says it's natural for people to want to view porn, even at a young age. Kai laughs this point off and states younger individuals can just ask their parents for the "birds and the bees" talk. 2:47:29 Kai claims that due to her current lifestyle, Lav is less content than he is. He highlights how she frequently mentions wanting to leave the internet but continues to stay online. 2:52:43 Kai asserts that porn cannot be used for good, and Lav takes issue. Later on Kai states there is no evidence to support the claim "it is healthy to masturbate", Lav also takes issue with this point. 2:57:54 Kai says he has Lav's camera covered, an Destiny attempts to clarify the two debaters points. 3:30:51 Lav describes the relationship between prostitutes and disabled individuals. 3:34:08 Kai starts to leave the call, but Destiny stops him and asks if he truly believes his previously stated positions on sex. The two debate for some time.

Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny

On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist. By the end of the conversation, Lav remained skeptical of the existence of nonbinary individuals but was open to considering the existence of a "gendered-experience".

Debate Highlights

2:31 Lav states that no individual has an internal experience of gender. Destiny disagrees, and the two discuss. Lav describes the people that experience some "incongruousness" with their gender to be mentally ill, and suggests secular conversion therapy for these individuals. 6:46 Destiny asserts that a successful conversion therapy method for Transgender individual would have been found by now if it existed. 9:14 Lav expresses her concerns with giving children HRT. She however understands the need for transgender women receiving HRT before puberty can help them integrate into society and reduce the number of suicides within this demographic. 15:03 The two discuss MrGirl's YouTube ban. 17:18 Lav says she is unsure what would convince her nonbinary people exist, and is unsure if an internal experience of gender exists. Destiny goes on to describe the "feelings" of being in tune with one's gender, and what pushes people towards becoming nonbinary. 31:24 Destiny describes the differences between the female and male experiences. The two discuss these differences for some time. 45:11 Lav concedes that there might actually be an experience of gender, but still had trouble grasping the nonbinary experience. She caveates that the the people she had been hearing these experiences from are just "retarded" and unable to adequately convey their position.

Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry

On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav, Zherka, and Chaeiry. The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon, and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. Lav goes on to explain that because Chaeiry was reviewing her vods so obsessively, she was forced to private them. Later, she shares that her experience in MrGirl's community made her strongly against sex work, and expresses her concern about the backlash from changing her stance. Destiny tells her that it's okay to change views occasionally, but advises her to avoid making strong statements throughout the process. Lav takes issue with this accusation, and the two debate for some time. Zherka eventually joins the conversation, starting a debate about the femininity of men and what women genuinely seek in men.

Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call later that day to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote). Chaeiry's goes on to assert that her primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals, before she eventually leaves the call.

Debate Highlights

1:43 Lav discusses the Patreon she started. She discusses how she still provides lewd images of herself, yet is still antiporn. 4:36 Lav discusses her falling out with Chaeiry. She discusses her issues with Chaeiry banning her from her chat, reacting to her content, and accesses Chaeiry of "farming" people against her. 8:44 Lav throws her cat. 19:33 Lav discusses joining MrGirl's discord, the friends she made, and becoming engrossed in his community which lead her to becoming anti-sexwork. Destiny responds that Lav is in a "transitionary" period in her life right now, and will naturally have trouble balancing what makes the most sense in her life philosophically and personally. 24:29 Destiny tells Lav it's okay for her to change her mind frequently, she should just avoid making strong statements along the way. Destiny points to inflammatory statements she made in conversations with sex workers. 28:39 Destiny and Lav debate whether or not the content she is providing on Patreon is "lewd" or "sexwork". 36:31 Lav says she likes people seeing her naked. The two then rehash a previous conversation on what it feels like to be a women vs what it feels like to be human. 42:37 Jon Zherka joins the call. He later discusses the "femininity" of the moon, goku, and what women truly look for in men. 53:58 Lav describes Destiny as being catnip for mentally ill women. 1:05:15 Lav states transracialism is just as valid as transgenderism. 1:31:17 Lav disconnects from the call. 1:41:35 The video skips to later in the day, when Chaeiry is speaking with Destiny. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav calling herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote.

Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry

Main Article: Destiny Addresses False Allegations Towards MrGirl

MrGirl adjusting his pants mid-conversation with Chaeiry

On October 16, 2022, Destiny and a panel of orbiters held a discussion on drama involving Chaeiry and Mrgirl, as well as a "nuke" Lav wanted to drop on Hasan. Chaeiry, thinking MrGirl had intentionally lifted his shirt to flash his stomach/lower body (and pubes), tweeted out a #metoo style tweet alongside Stardust with regards to the incident. Seeing the backlash she received following her accusations, Chaiery decided to speak with Destiny in hopes of receiving clarification as to where she messed up. After some discussion (and further questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that assuming any maliciousness from MrGirl during this incident would be unreasonable.

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Destiny Finally SNAPS, Almost Bans Entire Panel Addressing MrGirl False Allegations.

Later on, Dan joins the call followed by Lav, Aba, and Zherka. Lav brags about "being right" with regards to Chaeiry's character, mentioning her toxicity and alleged mental illness, and proceeds to defend MrGirl. Destiny takes issue with the harshness of Lav's criticisms, and the two discuss for some time. Throughout the conversation, Lav derides Chaiery's character, insults her, and accuses her of betraying MrGirl's friendship and trust. The conversation goes on for around twenty minutes before the panel decides to discuss sex work with Lav. Noticing a lull in the topics, Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy, and her heavy-handedness during debates. This conversation quickly gets derailed as Darius enters the call to shout at Lav.

The conversation becomes even more personal when Aba expresses his disdaine for Lav, calling her a version of Sneako with less charisma. He goes on to point to Lav's ability to take strong moral stances on topics she has no prior knowledge on, Lav takes issue with this and the two (along with Ahrel) discuss for some time. Shortly after this conversation, Lav alludes to a "nuke" on Hasan. Destiny stops her from dropping the nuke, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. Eventually Chaeiry joins the call to confront Lav, and the two argue for some time. MrGirl enters the call shortly after Chaeiry, and recreates the pose that was clipped and started the initial drama. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible (no pubes to be seen).

Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. Eventually, Chaeiry agrees that MrGirl's lower back, and not his butt, was shown. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. Eventually, the conversation shifts focus back to Lav (after she accuses Chaiery of lying) and Destiny is forced to explain to her what a lie is. While in the middle of defining what a lie is, Lav interrupts Destiny, to which Destiny responds by calling Lav a "dumb bitch". Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. Destiny snaps once more, saying this whole situation is a nothing burger that nobody will remember. Destiny further argues that the only one who deserves to be angry is MrGirl, who should probably be going much harder on Chaeiry as a result of her actions. MrGirl eventually leaves, and the panel members then turn their attention to Lav and criticize her for treating Chaiery poorly during the discussion. Lav and Chaiery continue to argue whether Chaiery lied, and in the end, Lav angrily exits the call.

Debate Highlights

1:07 Destiny and Chaeiry discuss the allegation Chaeiry levied against MrGirl. Chaeiry shows Destiny the clip wherein she claims MrGirl "flashed his pubes". After watching the clip, Destiny isn't sure what Chaeiry expects him to conclude and doubts that MrGirl intentionally harassed her based on the footage. After some further discussion (and some rather aggressive questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that to assume any maliciousness form MrGirl in this instance would be unreasonable. 15:12 The video skips to later in the day when Dan Joins the call, and Destiny explains the drama. 17:34 The video skips to later in the day when Lav joins the call alongside Aba and Zherka. Lav brags about being correct about Chaiery's character. Destiny takes issue with this accusation and the two discuss. 22:01 Lav claims MrGirl has a "wound", and is very cautious around women. Destiny responds that MrGirl is not, and points to conversations where he makes women quite uncomfortable. Lav then accuses Chaiery of lying for attention. 32:25 The panel discusses sex work, Lav's unban from MrGirl's discord, and race. 37:39 Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy. Lav responds she does not have a position worked out yet and is still developing one. Ahrelevant then asks why Lav takes such a heavy handed approach when criticizing people during these debates. 46:18 Lav discusses a sextoy review she will offer on her Patreon as educational content for women. Ahrelevant acknowledges this, but points to other lewd images she offers on her Patreon and Twitter that are not explicitly educational. Lav responds that she believes those images are neutral, and she receives sexaul gratificaiton from uploading them. 51:43 Darius joins the call and screams at Lav for a few minutes. 54:58 Aba speaks on his disdain for Lav. He describes Lav as a version of Sneako with less charisma. Lav takes issue with this, and she debates Abaa and Ahrel for some time. 1:13:21 Lav alludes to a Hasan "nuke" she wishes to drop. Destiny stops her before she can, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. 1:14:32 Chaeiry joins the call. She states Lav is as informed on her friendship with MrGirl as she is on the sex industry. The two debate for some time over the allegations. 1:22:09 MrGirl joins the call, and recreates the pose that was clipped. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible. Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. 1:38:56 Lav questions why none of the men in the call are confronting a women making false allegations. To which Destiny responds that Lav is a MrGirl simp, and hates Chaiery. 2:05:49 Destiny explains to Lav what a lie is, and calls Lav a dumb bitch when she interrupts him. Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. 2:09:58 Destiny says Chaeiry can make as many twitlongers as she wants about himself, nothing will come of it. He calls this whole situation a "nothing-burger" and says nobody will remember it. 2:16:54 MrGirl says this will be his final public appearance with Chaiery, and will no longer appear on streams with her again. He leaves shortly after stating this. 2:27:06 After several members on the panel point to Lav's poor treatment of CHaiery during the discussion (and many insults are thrown at CHaiery by Lav) she rage quits the panel.

Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams AKA Destiny takes off the "kids gloves" and yells at Lav

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Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS.

On October 23, 2022, Destiny watched several clip of Lav speaking about him on other streams. During the clips, Lav makes the following statements which Destiny took issue with:

• She states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive, especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people.
• She agrees with MrGirl's claim that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him. Destiny again, expresses his frustration with watching a young individual, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationship.
• She maintains that Chaeiry and Stardust were purposely malicious in their attempted cancellation of MrGirl, and accuses Destiny of not coming to MrGirl's aid. Destiny responds that the overwhelming majority of online spaces were coming out against Chaiery and Stardust, and he found it unnecessary to add on to the criticism they were receiving as a result of the accusation.

Eventually, Lav joins the stream to confront Destiny. Lav claims she never "talked shit" about Destiny on other streams, and accuses Destiny of "emboldening" his community against her and breeding misogyny. She also maintains that Destiny's audience has many Groypers in it harassing her. Destiny responds that he polices against misogyny heavily in his community, and points out that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms. He clarifies that this is is likely where the harassment she receives is coming from. The two debate the perceived Misogyny in Destiny's community (primarily the subreddit), Lav's characterization of Destiny on other streams, and Lav's behavior in debates.

Throughout their conversation, Destiny attempts to make clear to Lav that her on-stream issues do not stem from her unfamiliarity with debate spheres. Instead, he explains they stem from her habit of belittling other people who hold differing views from her, and then changing her mind on these views the next day. Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic, and when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. The conversation gets quite emotional with Lav even sobbing through her arguments at one point. Lav eventually apologizes, says she was wrong, and that she does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists.

Debate Highlights

1:16 Destiny reacts to a conversation between MrGirl and Lav. Lav states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive. Especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people. 2:07 MrGirl claims that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him, and Lav agrees. Destiny pauses the video, and expresses his frustration with watching a 24 year old, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationships. He suggests that Lav come back to him in three weeks once she has developed an entirely new life-philosophy again. 3:02 The video skips to later in the day where Destiny reacts to a conversation between Lav, Erudite, and Brittany. Lav says she's like Holden Caulfield from The Catcher in the Rye. Destiny pauses the video and states that no individual should want to be like Holden, and implies that Lav missed the point of the story if that was her takeaway. This was all in reference to Lav calling Chaiery a "phony", and her current disdain for her. 5:29 Lav, Erudite and Brittany debate for some time over the intentionality of Chaiery and Stardust attempting to cancel MrGirl. Lav believes the two (primarily Chaiery) were being malicious in their accusation, while Brittany and Lav felt they were genuinely uncomfortable. 10:15 Lav states that nobody came to MrGirl's aid (even Destiny), during his attempted cancellation. Destiny takes issue with this, points out that the attempted cancellation was absurd to begin with. He points to seeing many parts of his community (from his chatroom to subreddit) already criticizing Chaiery and Stardust, and reasoned that putting his "thumb on the scale" would be unnecessary. 16:12 Stardust joins the call, chats for a minute about seeking closure with MrGirl, then leaves. 22:17 Lav joins the call. Destiny accuses Lav of characterizing him as a moron. 25:13 Lav defends her position that Destiny's audience has many groypers in it. Destiny responds that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms, and this is likely where the harassment is coming from. 28:08 Lav responds that the actions of Destiny's audience are not necessarily his fault. Destiny then points out that Lav has stated on other platforms that Destiny having Groypers in his community has resulted in her getting hate, and compares that to her coming on stream right now to say that him having Groypers in his audience is morally neutral. 31:59 Destiny, in an exasperated voice, says "Don't talk to me like that, take that back..." when Lav tells him to "shut the fuck up" 33:17 Lav accuses Destiny of not paying attention to the conversation and attempting to pander to his audience. 34:24 Destiny attempts to list his issues with Lav but gets interrupted. 36:24 The two debate further about the perceived misogyny in Destiny's community. 37:47 Destiny asserts that Lav is not using a women's voice, but a manipulator's voice when she gets caught "doing some dumb shit" in a conversation. 39:28 Lav accuses Destiny of not empathizing with her position because he wants to protect his community. Destiny disagrees with this, and points to the amount of backlash he has received from his community as a result of him being good faith with Lav. 44:51 Lav begins to cry, and later concedes that she was being uncharitable to Destiny on other streams. 47:50 Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic. And when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. 50:28 Destiny asks Lav why she would use one-off most negative comments from his community to paint a brush on his entire audience. 54:16 Lav states she was wrong, and does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists. 1:04:25 The two discuss about presenting relationship problems to other people. 1:08:59 Lav begins sobbing. Destiny throws up a quick 900.

Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other for several hours

Main Article: Orbiter Civil War

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Destiny Orbiter Civil War PRELUDE.

On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream. The "prelude" to the civil war, involved Brittany and Destiny discussing the "real-world" impact of streamers, and the potentiality for certain orbiters (i.e MrGirl and Lav) to betray Destiny.

Prelude Highlights

2:24 Brittany asks Destiny what his goal is as a content creator. She later discusses her levels system, and what "being serious" as a content creator means with regards to real world impact. 6:59 Brittany discusses how she has trouble respecting MrGirl being upset with Destiny's lack of a response to "Chaeiry's mistaken accusation", citing his tendency to "shit talk" other individuals without regard for the implications. Destiny points out that MrGirl never levies fake sexaul assault allegations as Chaiery did. 8:55 Brittany compares MrGirl to Ethan from H3H3. 11:55 Brittany questions why Destiny struggles to understand Lav's position about being anti-sexwork while doing sexwork. Destiny responds that Lav's stance was incomprehensible, and that despite being intelligent, she is too aggressive in her approach during debates. Destiny points out that he didn't start being mean towards Lav until she started being aggressive towards him on other platforms. 14:47 Destiny compares orbiters to a Denny's steak. Discussing how he temperes his expectations towards orbiters that are likely to betray him in the future. 15:28 Destiny discusses how he would be surprised if Brittany ended up betraying him in the future (she did). He later says he can't imagine his relationship with MrGirl becoming tumultuous (it did). 15:45 Destiny "stakes out" a risky position, asserting that even amidst their current disagreements about community management, he and MrGirl will always maintain a good relationship and would never backstab him (things ultimately did not turn out okay between them). 20:48 Dan joins the call. 22:19 Brittany predicts that her friendship with Destiny will be one of the smoothest and best he's ever had, and they'll be friends for 30 years (they were not). She also thinks they'll never have a disagreement (they did). 31:29 Destiny talks about why he treats certain orbiters with "kids gloves". 34:15 Destiny discusses why he doesn't debate Brittany too much over her "levels" system. He later discusses what people mean when they have a "diverse" friend-group, and the benefits of understanding opposing views. 45:39 Lav joins the call following a discussion of Destiny's stream being a safe space for "unique" individuals. Lav states she wants to apologize for her behavior on a previous stream, and for mischaracterizing Destiny's audience. 50:25 Destiny discusses hooking up with Chaiery, and the drama that followed. 51:34 Chaiery joins the call, calls Destiny stupid, then leaves. 55:37 Dan describes why the current iteration of orbiters gets so much hate, citing their tendency to be "snakey". 1:01:26 Brittany and Lav debate with Dan regarding their trustworthiness.

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Aba eventually joins the call, and the Orbiter Civil War officially kicks off. The primary contention starts between Aba and Lav. Aba claimed most discussions with Lav are pointless, as she will always fall back on being "young and naive" whenever she's proven wrong in a discussion. Destiny tries to moderate the discussion between the two, as he sees no issue in Lav's ignorance as long as she eventually admits fault. Each orbiter (outside of Brittany), seemingly had a "problem":

• Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer.
• Chaiery has a problem regarding the fallout of her failed cancellation of MrGirl and animosity towards Lav.
• Dan wants to stir up drama.
• Lav has a problem with Destiny's community attitude towards her, nobody taking her seriously, and a general animosity toward Chaiery.
• MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community (primarily the subreddit and it's moderation). He feels the subreddit is part of a system of discrediting other orbiters, and making them look bad.
• Stardust has issues with the deterioration of her friendship with MrGirl as a result of her attempt to cancel him.

Destiny first addresses the issues with Lav. Lav accuses Destiny of tarnishing her reputation by labeling her as being young and naive, which leads the subreddit to echo this sentiment. Destiny responds, asserting that his intention is not to discredit her but to provide an explanation for the seemingly contradictory and highly irrational nature of some of her statements. He clarifies his stance on Lav’s behavior, describing it as manipulative/"gaslighty", and that she tends to feign ignorance on topics in order to escape accountability for her charged rhetoric

Destiny's contentions with MrGirl arise in the form of a debate on community responsibility. MrGirl and Lav argue that Destiny shouldn't call out the mistakes of smaller content creators on his stream, as it might turn his audience against them. For instance, MrGirl thinks Lav should have the freedom to call anyone a "dumb bitch" on stream, but believes Destiny shouldn't, because his audience would deride the "dumb bitch" in question. Destiny counters that he would never allow anyone to get away with poor behavior on his stream, regardless of their size. Chaiery, Pxie, and Brittany take Destiny's side, and argue that MrGirl and Lav are attempting to absolve themselves from all responsibility for their actions by blaming Destiny for the community's behavior towards them. Lav does not speak much throughout this portion of the conversation, and only chimes in to echo whatever sentiment MrGirl conveys.

As the discussion progresses, the group eventually discusses the relative meanness of Destiny and MrGirl. Destiny confesses that his own words are often "meaner," but he also points to the significant impact of MrGirl's way of framing certain issues to fit his own narrative. He compares his own insult towards Lav, calling her a dumb bitch, to MrGirl’s statement that Chaiery is "incapable of having a conversation." Feeling attacked in this conversation, MrGirl labels the other orbiters in the call "white blood cells" because they rally to counteract his points against Destiny. Throughout this portion of the conversation, several orbiters in the call point out that MrGirl arguments make it seem like he wishes to avoid all responsibility for his actions on stream by wishing to never be called out on any poor behavior. Near the end of this conversation, Lav decides to bring up REDACTED as an example of abused orbiters. Lav goes on to claim that REDACTED was a normal women that was tormented and demonized by Destiny's community. Destiny takes issue with this and the two discuss for some time until the call ends.

Debate Highlights

5:46 Aba asks Destiny what the point of having discussions with a 24 year old who doesn't know what she's talking about. Destiny responds he sees shards of himself in these individuals. Destiny elaborates that he only gets upset when these individuals make aggressive remarks (i.e. calling him bad faith) against his character. 7:56 Destiny expresses frustration with his community claiming he is too charitable towards Lav, and Lav saying he's not being charitable enough. Aba and Destiny later come to the conclusion that Lav is partially feigning ignorance on some topics to escape accountability for her claims. 11:15 Lav rejoins the call. Destiny asks Aba what he thinks about Sneako, and claims Sneako does worse than Lav with regards to engaging in debate and taking responsibility for their claims. 15:34 Aba and Lav debate. Aba elaborates why she feels Lav acts like a "useless retard" in her discussions, citing her taking strong positions on topics and falling back on being "young and learning" when proven wrong. Lav responds if Aba would prefer she just never own up to her mistakes, to which Aba counters he'd rather she never have the conversations to begin with. 17:27 MrGirl joins the call and attempts to defend Lav. 23:39 Chaiery joins the call, Aba leaves. 24:49 Lav claims she's been forced to acknowledge more of her mistakes than any other individual in the orbit, Destiny tells her to stop the hyperbole. 30:39 Brittany asks who everyone in the call trusts the most. Everyone picks Destiny, except for Lav who picks MrGirl followed by Destiny. Destiny says he trusts Dan the most. 34:17 Destiny summarizes everyone in the call's problem with one another. Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer. Chaiery has a problem with regards to her false allegation towards MrGirl and animosity towards Lav. Dan wants to stir up drama. Lav has a problem with Destiny's community,not being taken serious by anybody, and animosity toward Chaiery. MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community (primarily the subreddit). Stardust has issues with her and MrGirl's friendship deteriorating. 36:39 Lav takes issues with Destiny's characterization of "her problem", and says it's similar to MrGirl's "problem". MrGirl chimes in, and points to his issues towards moderation on the subreddit. 38:13 Lav points out that Destiny asked her to be more careful about her implications of him, yet Destiny is free to "shit talk" her and let his audience deride her. She points to Destiny accusing her of being young dumb and naive, and the entire subreddit parotting that point. Destiny responds that he is not descrediting her when she makes the claims, but a way of explaining why some of the things she says are so contradictory/ultra irrational. Destiny makes clear as to why she finds some of Lav's behavior to be manipulative, and elaborates why she found some of her actions to seem like gaslighting. 44:44 Lav complains about Destiny mocking her certain debates, and how such actions make the subreddit parrot that sentiment (i.e. calling Lav a "dumb bitch"). Destiny counters that he is simply matching energy, and would never let anyone get away with worse behavior just because they are a smaller individual. MrGirl takes issue with this,states he does not believe smaller content creators have as much responsibility on Destiny's platform, and the three debate. 48:01 MrGirl says "Steven (Destiny) in some ways, is our boss". He elaborates that whenever Destiny calls an orbiter a "dumb bitch", the community will parrot that same sentiment. 49:55 Chaiery and MrGirl debate. The panel discusses MrGirl's "war" on the subreddit. 53:39 Pxie joins the call. The debate on community moderation, and Destiny's onstream treatment of orbiters continues. 57:05 Lav claims people on the subreddit are posting doxing information about her. Destiny questions this, and this "doxing information" in question was really just Lav talking about her relationship on stream. 1:00:51 MrGirl claims Destiny never lets Lav finish a statement, Destiny disagrees and accuses MrGirl of gaslighting him. Lav eventually 1:05:18 Dan attempts to derail the conversation, then leaves after Destiny calls him out. Destiny then continues his point, and compares Lav to a young version of himself who would need someone to tell him how wrong he was on occasion. Destiny later defends against the accusation that he's ever called Lav "dumb", and points to instances of him pushing back against the accusation. 1:11:06 Brittany says he's unsure why Max and Lav need Destiny to protect them. She also questions why the two are so eager to give up any agency they may have to Destiny. Pxie chimes in, and claims MrGirl and Lav are attempting to absolve responsibility for their actions. MrGirl later claims he is not entitled, and Pxie takes issue. 1:17:22 Zherka joins the call, asks MrGirl where Destiny touched him, and then is promptly booted. 1:22:19 Destiny explains Pxie position after MrGirl misentrepts it (regarding professional and friendship boundaries). 1:29:04 MrGirl contradicts himself, he claims even if Destiny "fires" an orbiter their career isn't over. Which differs from his earlier point that certain orbiters only "exist" because of Destiny. 1:37:17 MrGirl claims he's "willing to have conflict". He later claims that Destiny wants the "benefit" of having orbiters but none of the responsibility. Chaiery takes issues with some of these statements, and the two discuss. 1:46:02 Destiny asks MrGirl to explain how he is his boss. Destiny states he never "hired" MrGirl, therefore he is not his boss. The two debate for some time, before the topic about "defining" the narrative around an orbiter arises once more. 1:52:12 MrGirl claims he did not ban Lav from his discord for being a pedophile, but for sexualizing minors. 1:55:43 MrGirl asks the panel to acknowledge that Destiny insults people more than him. Destiny admits he uses more "mean words" but points out that MrGirl has made some fairly extreme statements towards people as well. Stardust eventually points out that while Destiny does say harsh words on occasion, MrGirl's words tend to have more impact. 1:57:18 Dan gives an example of calling Stardust a moron, and nobody in chat caring. He then provides the example of stating that Stardust is incapable of having a hypothetical conversation, and points out that this is much more harsh. 1:57:55 Stardust and MrGirl argue for some time. Stardust admits her attempted cancellation of MrGirl was a huge mistake, and admits to apologizing many times. The argument gets quite personal, with Stardust mentioning her annoyance with how MrGirl "painted" her on his stream. MrGirl is very dismissive of everything Stardust says, and once they're argument concludes he accuses Dan of shit stirring. 2:02:35 Destiny steers the discussion back on track. He points out that while he tends to say more mean words to people, MrGirl's words tend to be more impactful. 2:03:42 MrGirl states that Destiny should never defend himself when an orbiter insults him. He goes on to say that all the orbiters in the call should shut the fuck up and stop defending Destiny. 2:05:40 MrGirl calls the orbiters in the call "white blood cells". 2:16:06 MrGirl says what Dr.K did to Reckful was worse than rape. Lav brings up REDACTED, and Destiny threatens to nuke Lav from orbit. 2:16:55 Destiny and MrGirl debate over personal responsibility and orbiter criticism. 2:34:17 Destiny and Lav debate over REDACTED. 2:45:39 Darius joins in to yell at Lav. 2:57:15 Dario joins in to give MrGirl some suggestions.

Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream

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I Asked My Therapist About Destiny.

On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.. Throughout the video, Lav maintains a somber demeanor and tone while clutching her knees to her chest in the fetal position. She addresses her problems with Destiny criticizing her on-stream behavior, and shares her distress about Destiny labeling her as an abuser in front of "several thousand people". As the video plays, Destiny attempts to tackle any arguments he perceives to be dubious in the VOD, and responds to questions from the chat about Lav's behavior. Destiny's major criticism of Lav is that she tends to make her "feelings" into statements of fact, and tends to leverage her emotional state to win arguments (hence the abuse accusations towards Lav).

Reaction Highlights

1:24 Lav discusses how she wanted Destiny to validate her feelings so the harsh comments made about her were "less real". 2:23 Lav describes her confusion with Destiny's anger towards her after she "talked shit" about his community. She goes on to assert that she was merely expressing her feelings. Destiny scoffs at this, and derides Lav for sugar-coating a "really shitty action or thing to say" with the phrase "I feel". 4:47 Lav states Destiny made her feel really bad about having feelings. She later expresses her distress towards Destiny calling her an abuser in front of "thousands of people". 6:11 Lav says MrGirl is a great colleague and an even better friend to her. Destiny responds that her and Lav have very different problems, and that MrGirl is not capable of handling Lav (citing the chaos ensuing from their first conversation). 9:01 Lav expresses her frustration with filming her "fuck-ups" on stream, but maintains there's "beauty" in it so she will continue. 10:51 Destiny addresses a question from chat regarding Lav's "mental blocks" regarding other individuals perception of her. He responds that it is difficult for an individual to manage having their thoughts audited to the degree streamers like Lav do. 16:01 Destiny asserts that an individual's feelings are not a chance for them to make observations about the world or make statements of fact, and points that Lav does this quite a bit during her discussions. 18:48 Lav claims she had a panic attack with her therapist. 22:17 Lav opens up Wikipedia to ascertain her mental state, Destiny takes issue with this. 28:31 Lav states she is so afraid of becoming her mother it keeps her up at night. 36:32 Lav says she reads her criticism because she has a hard time perceiving herself.

Lav discusses misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring Aba and Sneako

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Sneako And Aba CLASH On Debate Panel Over DJ Akademiks Fresh N Fit Drama.

On October 28, 2022, Lav discussed Misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring many orbiters including Aba, Sneako, Counterpoints, and Rem. The video begins with Lav apologizing for bringing up REDACTED in a previous conversation, and Destiny responding that he doesn't give a fuck. Soon after, Aba takes the chance to confront Lav about her habit of speaking impulsively. In return, Lav accuses Aba of being a misogynist, leading to a prolonged debate between members of the panel over Lav's behavior and her tendency to speak without thinking. Throughout the conversation, Sneako routinely asks Lav what she's wearing, and requests she turn her camera on. Meanwhile, Rem shit stirs with Dan's assistance, Erudite earnestly tries to guide Lav to a more reasonable stance, and Destiny struggles to moderate the panel's aggression and seemingly overt misogyny. Counterpoints works to uncover the valid points in Lav's "bullshit," even preparing a document to support his case, while Aba consistently criticizes Lav, likening her to a youthful, naive, and irritating version of Sneako in a wig, and labels her a detrimental figure for women in the midst of the anti-misogyny discourse.

Panel highlights

1:09 Sneako joins the panel asking to be caught up on the drama, while Lav aplogizes for bringing up REDACTED in a prior conversation. 2:04 Aba and questions Lav's tendency to "not think" before she speaks, and the two argue for some time. Lav thinks that Aba's arguments are "inherently misogynistic", while Aba asserts that his arguments are a matter of fact. Several other members on the call take issue with Lav's characterization of Aba's position. 3:11 Erudite describes the difference between sexism and misogyny. She points to someone looking down on an individual just because they're a women, and someone looking at an individual with hatred and disgust just because they're a women. Aba responds that he does in fact look at Lav with hatred and disgust, but only because she's young and dumb. 4:47 Rem tells Lav she has a habit of speaking before she thinks, and subsequently going on twitter to excuse her behavior. 7:56 Lav asks Erudite if she's having a hard time following along with her arguments, shortly after Destiny just complained the room being too aggressive. 9:11 Sneako asks Lav to turn her camera on, and later asks her what she's wearing. He later says he admires Lav for her ability to aggressively play the victim. 13:41 Counterpoints chimes in and points to some of the "based points" Lav has underneath her "bullshit". 17:15 Counterpoints reads from a document he prepared regarding Lav's positions on sex work. 21:30 Destiny cries to Lav that he only wants her to do a better job communicating. 23:04 Counterpoints describes how Destiny and he first met, and goes into detail about a conversation wherein Counterpoints requested that a debate opponent shove a broom stick up their ass. 24:04 Darius joins the call to shout at Lav. 25:19 Aba expresses his uncomfortability with Darius' use of the n-word now that he sees his pale complexion for the first time. 32:07 Erudite claims that Lav tends to have extreme takes even when she speaks in private. 35:00 Stardust apologizes profusely for attempting to cancel MrGirl. 36:21 Erudite expresses that Lav is not a great sample of women to bring in front of men who already hate women, and that this sentiment is not misogynistic. Lav offers to give Erudite some criticism in response. 39:31 Aba expresses that Lav reminds her of a version of sneako with a wig. WickedSupreme and Aba explain for some time why people dislike Lav. 42:28 Destiny gives some advice on how orbiters can go about not being instantly hated by hi community. He states that orbiters should be honest about what they do or do not know, and have some level of humility when they accept the consequences of their actions. 47:40 Erudite discusses why DGG likes her so much. 58:20 Lav discusses the despair she feels over subreddit posts criticizing her. 1:03:39 Destiny discusses the problem with discord queens. 1:06:57 Lav requests that Destiny stop calling her names like "dumb bitch" on stream, to which Erudite responds Lav should probably stop saying things that cause him to criticize her in that manner. 1:10:22 Rem begins debating Lav over her usage of problematic language. 1:14:50 Destiny discusses Brittany and the sexist response in his community to her appearances, and how after taking a break she came back to a much nicer response. The panel discusses sexism in DGG and it's moderation for some time. 1:30:30 Sneako and Counterpoints discuss the issues of "banning comedy".

Destiny and Dan recap MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav's Future

On November 1, 2022 Dan and Destiny had a conversation recapping MrGirl's bridge burning, and Lav's future as an orbiter. The two anticipate MrGirl to make a comeback after his pattern of temporary internet departures, similar to a tactic which Dan dubs as the "REM maneuver." Dan points out that despite the complications with MrGirl, Lav consistently returns from breaks with more strength, although her departures are brief and somewhat performative. The conversation continues, and there is a debate over whether Max will abandon his principles in order to make a return to the internet/Destiny's orbit. Dan asserts that Max's inflexible methodology and extreme bridge-burning are problematic, and further argues that Max possesses a "rigid-unadapting self-perception". Destiny suggests that Max will likely create a rationale to justify his return to the internet, potentially with some changes to his approach, unlike Lav, who has more leeway to evolve due to her less absolute commitments.

Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into an Impromptu Debate featuring Lav

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“DO NOT Make It Personal” - Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into Impromptu Debate.

On November 4, 2022 Aba, Brittany Simon, Dan, Politically Provoked's Brittany, Lav, and several other orbiters engaged in an impromptu debate on sex work, OnlyFans, and Relationships. The video begins with a debate between Politically Provoked Brittany and several other orbiters (including Lav) debating the feasibility of OnlyFans workers like Lav taking public stances against misogyny. The conversation then shifts to an argument over whether or not an individual can ever have "healthy" conversations with an OnlyFans content creator. Destiny maintains it's possible for a healthy discussion to be had, but it's impossible to know from an outside perspective. Chaiery, Brittany Simon and other orbiters take issue with Destiny's perspective and the panel discusses for some time. This conversation eventually evolves into a discussion of individuals becoming lonelier in society, and having fewer friends, Destiny and Aba agree this is likely a result of the internet/technology while Brittany disagrees this is the primary cause. At some point during this conversation, Lav states that Destiny convinced her to close her relationship, as a result of viewing how he engages in open relationships. This results in a personal debate between Lav and Destiny over whose life is more "niche" or unmaintable for the average person. Lav argues that the way Destiny manages her open relationship is a "niche", while Destiny counters that a partner being okay with someone who posts nudes on OnlyFans and Twitter is also an oddity.

Panel Highlights

0:52 Politically Provoked Brittany says it's funny how Lav claims to be opposed to misogyny while being a sex worker. Destiny takes issue and defends Lav. 2:50 Aba discusses some of the "fire" burka porn available on the internet. 4:31 Aba claims OnlyFans content creators generate most of their income from interactions (i.e. personalized videos) with their fans and not from their "content". 6:24 Lav suggets there are two women on the panel right now who Destiny has sexted. 8:47 The panel discusses whether an individual can ever have a healthy conversation with an OnlyFans content creator. 12:09 Destiny points to OnlyFans content creators like Amoranth hiding their relationships, and likens it to rape when content creators like her have sexaual interactions with their fans. 13:31 Brittany Simon chimes in to discuss her perspective on the topic as an OnlyFans content creator. 15:22 Destiny claims he would never advocate for anyone to participate in an open relationship despite it working for him. Brittany Simon somewhat disagrees with this position, and implies that individuals just do not put in enough effort/reading into the subject of open relationships to make them work. 20:16 Brittany Simon discusses the Gay/queer bubbles she's in and how her positive experience there has impacted her opinions. 21:51 Brittany Simon states that these men are simply fantasizing when they interact with OnlyFans workers and do not genuinely develop feelings. Destiny counters that maybe 2% of men who interact with OnlyFans content creators fall into this category. 26:18 The panel discusses hookup culture. 36:20 Sushia joins the call to give her perspective on sex work and OnlyFans. 43:26 Destiny discusses how people are having fewer close friends. 48:13 Chaiery points out that Lav and her are currently present in the call and actively discuss their differences, as opposed to people in the "destiny support groups" who discuss their issues with Destiny behind his back. 1:17:37 Lav states that Destiny convinced her to close her relationship. She goes on to say that the way Destiny seeks out sexual partners while in an open relationship feels wrong to her. 1:25:27 Destiny and Lav accuse each other of living lifestyles that a normal person would not be able to maintain. 1:31:46 Lav claims she only opened her relationship for a few months, and has been doing sex work since she was 17.

Destiny discusses Lex Fridman and Lav

On November 5, 2022 Destiny discussed Lex Fridman and Lav during viewer call-ins. At around twenty-two minutes, Destiny brings up that Lex is fascinated by Lav, and thinks she has a "really beautiful mind". Destiny found this very amusing as Lex even shared this sentiment with Melina (who was not very fond of Lav at the time).

Lav and Melina fire shots at one another on their streams

Logs of Melina mocking Lav for her behavior (read from bottom to top).

On October 28, 2022 Melina, Destiny's then wife, discussed her frustrations with watching Lav and several other orbiters interactions with Destiny on stream. Melina expresses her frustration with ongoing drama involving Lav, and draws parallels to manipulative behaviors she recognizes from her sister. She expresses discomfort with how some of Stephen's friends and acquaintances (i.e. Brittany) who lack a deep understanding of him, overly analyze and discuss his personal life and relationships. She goes on to say that such behavior is "creepy" and quite "parasocial", particularly when they attempt to analyze Destiny's behavior (i.e. saying "Oh Steven actually thinks this..."). Melina also shares concerns about the "worthlessness" of online interactions and friendships, especially those revolving around her partner. She explains that Destiny and herself have a strong physical and emotional connection, while those online tend to be shallow and obsessive. Throughout the video, Melina expresses her disdain for the manipulative and victim-playing tactics that she has regularly experienced in online communities, and expresses her desire for more "meaningful" interactions that can't typically be found online.

On November 6, 2022 Lav reacted to a video showcasing all of Melina's criticisms of her on stream. On her stream, Lav accuses Melina of being immature and "very weird". Lav took particular issue with Melina's criticism of her "being babied her entire life for being pretty", to which Lav describes her own hardships, including family neglect and substance addiction. She goes on to claim that Melina is unfairly making assumptions about her life, much like she accused Lav of doing with Destiny. The video progresses, and Lav questions Melina's claims about Destiny treating her like a child, asserting that Melina is misconstruing Destiny's charitability and nice behavior. In response to Melina's "psychoanalysis" accusations, Lav argues that Melina is performing a psychoanalysis herself, and points out that Destiny's highly public life, as he streams every day, makes such analysis warranted. Lav further elaborates that both Brittany and herself have personal relationships with Destiny, granting them the right to discuss him. She then accuses Melina of avoiding mentioning Destiny on her stream, claiming that Melina receives more donations when she refrains from doing so. Lav concedes that she does not know Destiny as well as an ex-girlfriend would (as Melina claimed), but caveats that they know him enough through their interactions on stream to warrant discussion on his behavior. Lav concludes her stream by sharing her personal views on open relationships, and her interactions with Steven.

Lav joins a debate panel featuring Low Tier God and JiDion

Main Article: Debate panel featuring Low Tier God and JiDion

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JiDion And Low Tier God Squash Beef In The Middle of A Debate Panel.

A depiction of Lav posted on r/destiny following the debate.

On November 6, 2022 Lav took part in a panel discussing anti-Semitism and black issues, featuring JiDion, Low Tier God, Aba, Counterpoints, Pxie, and Darius. The panel opens with a debate regarding the importance of voting in presidential elections. JiDion, Aba, and Low Tier God argue that voting in these elections is unimportant and describe former President Barack Obama's tenure as ineffective. Several of the other panelists took issue with this view, and the group discusses for some time. The conversation eventually narrowed to a more specific focus on the black community. During which time, the panel discusses the opportunities for its improvement, and eventually touched on the problem of antisemitism in black communities.

The discussion on antisemitism remained moderate, until Lav introduced the topic of increasing integration between white and black people online, a trend she perceived as problematic. She expressed concerns about black communities adopting antisemitic behaviors similar to those found among whites on the internet, drawing a parallel to Nazi Germany. Lav further elaborated on how she sees groypers and black individuals uniting online to ridicule Jews, goes on to describe how a Jewish man is more likely to be "hate-crimed" on the street than a black man, and laments the lack of institutions protecting Jewish people as they do African Americans. This led to a discussion on recent events which resulted in several NBA stars apologizing for perceived antisemitic remarks from Kyrie Irving. Aba thought it was strange how quick they were to jump to the defense of Jewish people, Lav argued that they were just defending their friends, and JiDeon questioned the reasoning for asking someone like Shaq or LeBron to denounce the remarks (as opposed to a Jewish NBA star). The conversation intensifies, as Lav remarks that Jewish people went through a genocide, and cites this as a reason for needing to be more critical of individuals who speak out against Jewish individuals. Aba takes issue with this claim, and argues that Jewish people need to move on from their past, similar to how African Americans needed to move on from slavery. Aba goes on to recommend that Jewish individuals like Lav should pick themselves up by their bootstraps and move on from their former oppression. At some point during the conversation Lav accuses Aba of being antisemitic for assuming she was pro-Israel just because she's Jewish.

Near the call's conclusion, Low Tier God laments that the only way African Americans can earn money on a large scale is through entertainment. He goes on to question why wealthy African Americans would even want to risk their wealth by making antisemitic remarks, and argues that they themselves damage the community. Destiny and Low Tier God then discuss the systematic issues prevalent in black communities for some time before the call concludes.

r/Destiny was not fond of Lav's performance during the debate and created many posts criticsing and poking fun at Lav. One such post, has Lav appearing in blackface.

Panel Highlights

2:28 Pxie asks Low Tier God if he believes the last few years would be the same if Donald Trump in office. Low Tier God responds that he saw much legislative work done for the LGBTQ and Latino communities, but nothing done for African Americans. 3:58 Darius takes issue with Low Tier God's perceived lack of knowledge on the electoral process, and claims he is a "stupid ass nigga". The African American members on the panel respond by "lil broing" Darius for the next several minutes. Aba goes on to describe Darius as a "Bollywood nigga who says the n-word", while Low Tier God mocks Darius's "cartoon PFP". Low Tier God then recommends that Darius upgrade his mic quality, comparing it to the muffled sound of someone speaking into a pillow. 4:52 Lav asks the panel if they believe Trump will run for president. 7:16 After lamenting for some time about the lack of work done for African Americans under Obama's presidency, Low Tier God points out that African Americans mocked Donald Trump for seemingly no reason. 8:16 Lav asks the African American members of the panel how they could improve the black community if it can't be fixed. 13:28 Lav asks Low Tier God if he believes there are powerful black figureheads in the political world (she points to Stacey Abrams). 15:44 Lav asks Low Tier God: "If the black community cannot be help , how can you live your day to day life?" A random t4 caller jumps in during Low Tier God's response and asks Lav why she believes black men mistreat and disregard black women. 23:51 Lav agrees with JiDeon's disgust with white people profiting off of black athletes. Counterpoints asks what kind of white people they're referring to. 31:05 The panel discusses the perceived problem with antisemitism in the black community. 35:03 Lav discusses the problem with white and black people integrating at unforeseen rates due to the internet. She further laments the issues of black communities joining their antisemitic behavior with whites online, and likens it to nazi germany. She goes on to describe how she perceives groypers and black people joining together to mock jews. 38:26 Lav discusses how a Jewish man is more likely to get hate crimed than a black man. She then discusses how nobody cares when a synagogue gets shot up. 40:39 Aba discusses how strange it was that major NBA players came out so quickly against perceived Antisemitic remarks from Kyrie Irving. Lav argues they were defending Jewish people because they had Jewish friends, while JiDion remarks how strange it was to ask prominent black NBA stars as opposed to a Jewish one. 43:30 Aba remarks how ESPN turned into 48 hours of Rabbis talking to NBA players who could barely read that they need to apologize (Lav agreed this was cringe). 45:31 Aba and Lav discuss prominent Jewish individuals in power. 46:58 JiDeon discusses the difference in backlash between mocking Jesus vs mocking anything Jewish related. Aba agrees with this criticism, and remarks that at some point Jews have to move beyond things that happened years ago (he compares this to African Americans needing to move on from slavery). When questioned, Aba agrees that Jewish individuals are oversensitive about the holocaust (lowkey). 50:21 Lav asks Aba why he believes Jewish people are rich. Aba responds that they are just born that way, and Counterpoints picks up the question and gives the history of Jews since medieval times. 52:42 Aba states that he is pro-palestine. Lav assumes this is a criticism towards her, and derides Aba for assuming she was pro-Israel just because she's Jewish. She then accuses Aba of being antisemitic. 53:18 Low Tier God asks Counterpoints if he thinks everything done by the Jews could be done by black people. Counterpoints responds that they likely would not be able to, and points to geographical issues with west Africa. 56:07 Pxie discusses with Low Tier God his claim that black people "just have to choose better". This leads to a conversation regarding "the talk" black people give their children regarding police interactions. Counterpoints gives his perspective as a police officer during this conversation. 1:01:44 Pxie asks Low Tier God to acknowledge that it's possible for a black person to act on their best behavior and still get fucked over by a racist. Lav feels the need to answer for Low Tier God here, and assures Pxie that Low Tier God knows this. Low Tier God answers no, which results in Lav attempting to run defense for him by accusing Pxie of posturing over a black man. 1:03:49 Destiny steps in to provide a middle ground between the opposing views. 1:08:16 Lav asks Low Tier God what he thinks about black absentee fathers. Low Tier God responds that most black men fornicate for pleasurable purposes and are not looking to settle down (he later states he does not date black women). JiDion responds that this enables rhetoric from individuals like Nick Fuentes. 1:11:55 Counterpoints describes his experiences as a cop dealing with poor black communities and youths. He reinforces the point while we should not deny individuals some agency in bettering their lives, having the tools in place to better one's life is equally important. 1:14:22 Low Tier God laments that the only way African Americans can earn money on a large scale is through entertainment. He goes on to question why wealthy African Americans would even want to risk their wealth by making antisemitic remarks, and argues that they themselves damage the community. 1:19:02 Counterpoints describes his time in West Baltimore for a documentary, wherein he asked cops for a safe place to film. The cops responded there was no safe place to film. 1:23:26 Low Tier God and Destiny discuss for some time the systematic issues prevalent in black communities.

A debate panel featuring Lav, Aba, and Annalicia gets derailed. Lav suggests that Tree of Logic is in the "sunken place"

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Debate Panel Completely Derails Into HEATED Personal Insults ft. Aba.

A depiction of Lav in the "sunken place" posted on r/destiny following the debate.

On November 7, 2022, Lav participated in a panel featuring Aba, Annalicia, Pxie, 4THOT, Fanatiq, and Tree of Logic. The panel members primarily discussed issues involving challenges in the black community, including fatherlessness, racial dynamics, and the impact of economic factors on family structures. Throughout the conversation, personal attacks and accusations of racism were frequently levied by both sides of the panel. Annalicia and Lav were of the opinion that black men made poor fathers, and that black men were more or less detrimental to the success of black women. The two frequently backed each others viewpoints as they debated against several of the aforementioned orbiters. Frequently throughout the panel, Annalicia would be asked a pointed question regarding her position, Lav would chime in before Annalicia could speak, and a panel member would tell Lav to let Annalicia speak. The panel eventually devolved into a shouting match between several black members of the panel, as Annalicia vehemently defended her points against Fanatiq, Tree, and Anti (a black PhD student).

During the panel, Lav cited incarceration statistics of black men and crime rates as reasons for them being poor fathers. She also recommended that Straighterade should trust and listen to Anna's experience as a black woman. This led 4THOT to introduce a black female therapist, Alice Jay, who took issue with Lav's views on absent black fathers, arguing the absenteeism was not as frequent as Lav claimed. Lav dismissed Alice's perspective, claiming she only saw privileged clients. Alice counters, pointing to her work in an underserved area, and mentioned many of her patients are on Medicaid. Despite this, Lav insisted that these individuals are still privileged and niche. Lav proceeds to share her upbringing in Englewood, California, surrounded by black people, and noted that none of them recognized mental illnesses in their children, and would likely never have taken them to a therapist such as Alice. Straighterade then points to the irony of Lav speaking condescendingly to a black woman, shortly after affirming the authority of black women on this subject.

At some point, Tree of Logic joins the stream. She begrudgingly agrees with an opinion given by Fanatic, that black women have all the agency with regards to "who makes the babies". This results in a debate between Annalicia (backed by Lav), Tree of Logic, and the other members of the panel. The debate unfortunately gets heavily mired by Annalicia's refusal to define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, which results in the two becoming incredibly heated early on in their discussion. Annalicia eventually does define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, describing them as these individuals that are going to school, getting educated, coming from good socioeconomic standings, yet are still leaving single mothers behind with other races (i.e. Asian, Hispanic, white). When pushed, Annalicia elaborates that 70% of black men fall under this category. Tree takes issue with this, and accuses Annalicia of not providing enough agency to black women with regards to partner selection. While Tree is giving her response, Lav stops her to inform Tree that her and Annalicia want the same thing: for black women to live more empowered lives. Annalicia disagrees with this characterization, and at one point calls Tree 'remedial' (meant to be a politically correct way to call someone retarded). Lav would then pause the two mid-conversation a second time to ask a question, to which Tree requests that Lav shut the fuck up. Lav then attempted to interrupt the conversation one more time to get the panel members to watch a video breaking down interracial marriages, but is shot down repeatedly. In an attempt to defend Annalicia, Lav accuses the other panel members of being unfair in their critiques and overly hostile to Annalicia. She would go on to suggest that Tree is in "the sunken place" and accuses Tree of letting a man "lead" her.

Much like her previous appearance with JiDeon and Low Tier God, Lav was met with much criticism on r/Destiny as a result of her debate performance. Once again some posts depicted Lav in black face, while others took a more tempered approach to their critiques of Lav.

Debate Highlights

1:17 Anna joins the stream to debate Straighterade. She describes her desire to remain ambiguous with regards to her marital status. 2:54 Destiny laughs when Anna brings up black mean, and Lav attempts to describe how patronizing that is before she is promptly kicked from the call by Destiny. 3:54 Annalicia states black men are professionals at weaponizing their feelings. Destiny points out that other races do this as well. 6:59 Straighterade states she does not appreciate Annalicia's spreading of the "absent black father myth". Lav and Annalicia scoff at this, and debates the issue. Annalicia attempts to have a good faith debate, however Lav is quick to call Straighterade a contrarian, and laugh at some of her claims. 13:27 Annalicia claims she is talking to a white women, and Straighterade takes issue and states she is hispanic. Anna responds that hispanic is not a race. 15:05 Annalicia claims that the studies Straighterade cites cannot truly quantify the engagement black fathers have with their children. Straightered counters that they in fact can. Lav cites a random fact. Destiny, seeing Annalicia and Straighterade are speaking past each other, chimes in and clarifies their positions. He clarifies that there is a deficit of black fathers that are involved, and this is the key issue (not necessarily that black fathers that are involved are poorly doing so). 18:46 While Straighterade and Annalicia are attempting to hash out their disagreement regarding the statistics of black fathers, Lav decides to chime in and ask provide a few statistics regarding black children (to Destiny's chagrin as Straighterade has already addressed the data point she's citing). 19:29 Lav goes into detail regarding black men incarceration rates, have super high crime rates, and questions what they are doing all day. She goes on to state that they are likely not taking their children to school every day.Straighterade points out the difference between "being unmarried" and "being absent" and how this invalidates Lav's position. Lav then recommends that Straighterade shutup and listen to Annalicia. 21:10 A black female therapist, Alice Jay joins the call and pushes back against Lav's position. She points out that black men (who are not absent) are involved with their children. Lav handwaves this as Alice seeing privileged clients. Alice cuts Lav off and informs her that she actually works in an underserved area. She goes on to describe how many of her patients are on Medicaid (government provided healthcare for low-income individuals). Lav maintains that these people are still privileged. 22:34 Lav describes how she grew up in Englewood around only black people, and provided the anecdote that none of the black individuals she met were able to recognize that their children had any form of mental illness (she described this as a staple of the black community). Straighterade then points out the irony in Lav talking down to a black women, minutes after saying black women have authority on this particular subject. 23:08 Lav attempts to backtrack and claims she was not speaking on the black experience. Other members on the panel call her out for this and point out that she in fact was. 25:00 Alice and Annalicia debate for some time. 27:38 Destiny clears the air, and points out that Ana's argument is the types of families that would even think to take their children to these counselors, is probably going to select for the best of black families. Alice then counters that these families are at the "end of their rope" and because there is a behavioral problem with the child (either she helps them or they end up in a foster home). 30:33 Pxie steps in to debat Annalicia. She asks Annalicia what her "end goal" or solution is. Destiny steps in once again to steelman Annalicia's argument. 32:31 Lav accuses Straighterade of calling Annalicia a racist. Straighterade denies this, but Alice accepts that, and elaborates why she thinks so. Annalicia later concedes that there is not a biological component to the perceived deficiencies in black men. Lav accuses everyone on the panel of being bad faith for assuming that Annalicia would even maintain such a position, to which Destiny counters that even he had such an impression of her. Annalicia is outraged at the other panel members as a result of this. 34:57 Aba joins the panel. 35:30 Alice and Destiny ask Annalicia what she thinks the reason black men are "failing" is. Citing a study, Annalicia replies that black mentorship and cultural revitalisation is needed. Destiny counters that this is a issue that could be said for many other races, to which Annalicia replies that the issues are primarily culture, mentality, (Lav chimes in that it's the patriarchy), and some historical implications. 37:02 Annalicia argues that there are some inherent deficiencies in black men, but maintains these deficiencies are not biological and can be changed. She later details that black women face a double standard with the criticism they receive relative to black men. She maintains that the criticisms levied on black women are individualistic while the criticisms towards black men are systematic in nature. 40:46 Lav describes her interpretation of Annalicia's arguments, Destiny tries to cut her off as she is not acknowledging some of the harmful prescriptions prevalent, but Lav continues to monologue (destiny is visibly upset by this). 46:48 After a noticeably heated one-sided exchange with Annalicia, Aba requests that she dial down the intensity. Annalicia responds that she is on her period, and Lav states that she is too. 49:58 Annalicia asserts that being with black men has been detrimental to black women. Destiny counters that Annalicia could phrase her argument less inflamatoraily by stating black women could just choose better partners as opposed to not choosing black ones. Lav quickly rebukes that Destiny is doing the "steve harvey thing", and Destiny tells Lav to shut the fuck up so Annalicia can respond. 51:36 Lav responds that she hears Annalica's argument perfectly, Destiny chides that this hurts Annalicia's position. 53:14 Annalicia describes why she believes black women have low self esteem. 58:00 Destiny reminds Lav that they are both white, and that the black members on the panel probably have no trouble showing empathy for one another. 1:01:30 Destiny details the plight of black men, describing systematic and societal issues they face. He goes on to describe how some "good black men" get in the crossfire of some of Annalica's arguments. Annalicia handwaves this as "mansplaining", and replies that not enough good black men exist. 1:12:16 Annalicia describes her issues with black men becoming partners with women of other races. Destiny acknowledges the issue, and points to the proclivity of black men to date women from other races. 1:24:45 Tree of Logic joins the stream. She begrudgingly agrees with a take given by Fanatic, that women have all the agency with regards to "who makes the babies". 1:27:53 Tree asks Annalicia what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" is. The two argue for some time, Tree is surprisingly calm while Annalicia is quite heated. 1:31:34 Annalicia becomes noticeably more angry as Tree presses her to define who "pookie" and "ray-ray" are. 1:32:26 Annalicia defines what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are. She states that pookie and ray-ray are going to school, getting educated, coming from good socioeconomic standings, yet are still leaving single mothers behind with all races (i.e. Asian, Hispanic, white). When pushed, Annalicia elaborates that 70% of black men fall under this category. Tree takes issue with this, and accuses Annalicia of not providing enough agency to black women with regards to partner selection. 1:35:11 Lav requests permission to ask a question, Destiny shoots her down, but Tree allows her to ask anyways. Lav informs Tree that her and Annalicia want the same thing, for black women to live more empowered lives. Annalicia and Tree disagree with this acterization. Annalicia at one point calls Tree of Logic 'remedial' (meant to be a politically correct way to call someone retarded), and states it is very difficult for a black women to be able to "vet" partners. 1:38:58 Annalicia laments black women historically never being in a position to "ask for too much" with regards to their partners. 1:40:06 Tree states she has never complained about an ex-relationship all her life, Annalicia takes issue with this and attempts to interrupt her several times. Annalicia handwaves Tree's arguments as useless personal anecdotes, and argues that her experiences are the exception not the rule. 1:43:26 Lav states she has another question, and Tree tells her to shut the fuck up. The debate then gets even more heated. 1:47:06 Annalicia details the struggles of black women. First she critiques Trees argument that black people simply need to go to church to find guidance by pointing out that black people (specifically black women not black men) go to church more than any other minority group. She then refers to the fact that black men are more disgusted by single motherhood. She concludes that black men are not interested at all in being mentors. 1:49:44 4THOT enters the call. 1:50:33 Annalicia suggests if these black men are not mentoring these "fucking fatherless delinquent children" then they should not be having them. 1:54:46 Annalicia, likely unaware of Tree's statue, suggests that she "not go there" with her, to which Tree responds "the fuck you gonna do?" and laughs bombastically. 1:58:55 Annalicia and Fanatiq debate for some time. 2:00:09 Destiny quotes a statistic stating Black men are more likely to intermarry than black women. 2:02:31 Destiny shouts at Fanatiq, informs him that for once he's not the black person on a panel he's yelling at, and requests that Annalicia avoid from using "little rhetorical tricks". 2:04:18 Annalicia states white women are the standard for all beauty in women, Tree disagrees. 2:07:00 Annalicia asks what percentage of white women are getting assjobs. 2:08:04 Lav attempts to get the panel to watch a video breaking down interracial marriages while Annalicia is putting forth a point regarding black/white beauty standards. Annalicia is not happy with this, and Destiny is visibly amused. Destiny and fanatiq see the thumbnail of the video, and decide they'd be better off just having a conversation instead of watching it. 2:11:15 After several interruptions, Fanatiq informs Annalicia she has two minutes to finish her point. Annalicia retorts that Fanatiq cannot tell her what she has. Lav jumps in and states she needs to play her video for the panel. 2:12:39 Fanatiq repeatedly shouts the phrase "as I remember." 2:15:22 Anti, a black male with a PhD, joins the panel. He contends that black men are not achieving the same education rates as women due to higher incarceration rates. 2:19:44 Annalicia sarcastically states that black men are victims, and concludes they are incapable of not commiting crime, and raising children. 2:26:13 The panel completely derails as the black members on the panel talk over each other. 2:29:21 Annalicia and Fanatiq shout at each other. He repeatedly shouts the phrase "the Rally". 2:35: 03 Annalicia requests that Destiny whitesplain for her. 2:39:43 Aba yells at the panel for being overly combative. 3:09:09 The debate panel competently derails. Destiny suggests he could unmute one panel member at a time to get their points out uninterrupted. 3:13:34 Annalicia temporarily rage quits the panel. 3:16:32 Tree and Lav debate for some time regarding how fairly Annalicia was treated. She suggests that the other panel member were overly hostile to her. 3:27:14 Annalicia rejoins the panel and burns the bridge with Destiny. 3:34:25 Lav informs Tree that she can remain in the sunken place if she wishes to continue being led by men.

Destiny reacts to a clip of Lav on Chudlogic's stream

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Lavlune CONFRONTED and EXPOSED for Absurd Clout Sharking and Flip-Flopping.

On November 7, 2022, Lav appeared on a stream with Chudlogic to discuss her recent showings on Destiny's stream and her recent behavior since joining the "pol" community. In the clip, Lav states that Destiny's community is overrun with misogynistic douchebags. Fellow panelist Wickedsupreme tries to counter this accusation, but Lav intensifies her criticism, labeling even the moderators in DGG as incels.Upon hearing this, Destiny jokingly proposes creating a training course for potential stream participants to understand true internet hostility.He elaborates that if an individual is feeling "broken" as a result of their interactions with DGG, they are simply not cut out for the online space in general. He jokingly suggests that one of the lessons in the orbiter training camp, would be people simultaneously hacking the orbiter's twitter account, while calling them racial slurs, making death threats, and creating a subreddit dedicated to hating the individual and their entire existence (all things which have happened to Destiny). He then compares this to DGG, who might make mean subreddit posts about individuals, and occasionally show up in twitter replies/mentions. Destiny points to a recent video he watched involving Lav and Mrgirl, in which Lav was "literally crying" because she was banned from r/Destiny. Destiny mockingly compares this to a dick-pic of his which was embedded in the CSS of a subreddit for several months.

Later on in the video Destiny is told: "Apparently she read a text of you telling her good job for her appearance, but not good enough because you didn't' defend her against melina." Destiny responds that he does not wish to stand between Lav and Melina, and that he doesn't care for their disagreements with one another. Destiny then reads the exact message he sent "Good job you contributed well tonight, you're a tenacious one i'll give you that." Destiny proceeds to read a complaint from Lav regarding critcisiams she received from RightToBearArmsLOL, to which Destiny responded RTBA is "his own proud bear, talk to him". Destiny encourages Lav to publicly reveal their private messages if she ever feels he's being duplicitous, underscoring his disapproval of being portrayed as two-faced.

Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together

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Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together.

Direct messages between RightToBearArmsLOL and Lav wherein RTBA defends against an antisemitism accusation levied towards Aba.

On November 9, 2022 Destiny reacted to a MrGirl stream titled "Misogyny with Lav". MrGirl and Lav begin their conversation by discussing Lav's involvement in sex-work, where MrGirl suggests that she integrates misogyny into her profession. Their discussion then shifts to the presumedly severe critique they face from r/destiny. During the discussion, Lav reveals that she has implored Destiny to be mindful of her feelings regarding the subreddit's criticism. She argues that misogyny is a widespread issue affecting all women, noting that attractive women, like herself (especially those in the upper echelons of attractiveness in which she believes herself to be a part of), often face more severe scrutiny. Lav mentions that 70% of the criticism directed at her from the subreddit bring up how attractive she is, and informs MrGirl that she's "killing herself" trying to internalize all the criticism she receives. The climax of the stream occurs when MrGirl strongly advises Lav to distance herself from Destiny's orbit, explaining that he left it himself as an example for her, after which both begin sobbing.

The discussion continues, and Lav discusses her grievances with Destiny's moderation team, initially focusing on her conflicts with 4THOT and her subsequent ban from the subreddit. She then discusses an interaction with RightToBearArmsLOL, who, according to her, messaged her concerning her accusation of antisemitism directed at Aba. She alleges that RightToBearArmsLOL warned her about a potential ban if she "weaponizes her Jewishness against Aba again." When Destiny reviews these messages, he comments that their content doesn't seem as serious as Lav had portrayed. Destiny proceeds to outline the "abuser-tactic" MrGirl utilizes to convince Lav.

"If you're trying to convince somebody to do something, that they're kind of half in on, that you kind of want them to do... usually when people are trying to seal the deal... the goal of most people is to push them all the way to be fully on board with this (AKA full commitment to an action), that's what you want to push them towards. But if you wanna be really manipulative, the real goal is to have them emotionally roped in enough so that you have them right here (bordering on acceptance of committing an action), and then as soon as you know you've got them, you pull back completely, and then you go hands-off, and then you let them argue the rest of the way so they feel like they're the ones who are moving themselves this way (fully bought in). It lets you remove full responsibility from the decision later."

— Destiny [SOURCE]

Destiny outlining how MrGirl convinced Lav into leaving his orbit. The left line is "acceptance of a given action" and the right line is "being fully bought into a given action".

As Destiny resumes the video, MrGirl alleges that Destiny banned him from r/destiny due to concerns that he might influence his community against Destiny. MrGirl asserts that Destiny is on precarious grounds, fearful of losing everything. He further speculates that Destiny relies on a constant influx of orbiters for his followers to dogpile on. Lav then asks for MrGirl to refrain from talking about Destiny's life any further, for fear that they will be "torn to shreds" if they do. She claims to want to leave Destiny's community, but wants to also look "strong". MrGirl replies that the narrative after he left Destiny's orbit was that he tried to take over the subreddit and failed, so he left but is desperate for DGG's approval so he'll likely return at any moment. In the ongoing discussion, MrGirl expresses his sadness over the numerous "pro-Aba" posts on the subreddit, and asserts that the community is bound to eventually tear him down, and that no orbiter is safe. MrGirl claims that the only way to enable Lav to come back on Destiny's stream with no boundaries, is for him to suck up all of the anger from the community, so she doesn't have to.

Lav goes on to share her grievances regarding Destiny's behavior, contrasting his on-stream demeanor with his off-stream actions. She expresses frustration about how Destiny often praises her intelligence and how great she is on stream , yet she feels mistreated by him during live streams. As an example, Lav cites a situation where Destiny messaged her about her excellent performance on stream, but then allowed Melina to criticize her on her own stream.

As the stream concludes, Destiny claims Lav contradicts herself a lot, is internally incoherent, is inconsistent with her own beliefs, and in the process of changing constantly internally. Destiny qualifies that Lav is still very smart, however he can understand why people would perceive her to be "stupid", following seeing her exhibit the aforementioned negative qualities. Destiny then points to how people will routinely faulter in debates against Lav by failing to bring "receipts" to back their arguments.

Reaction Highlights

1:01 Destiny tunes into MrGirl's stream with Lav. 2:25 MrGirl informs Lav she's the first "porn-creator" he's encountered that has misogyny be part of her job. 4:39 MrGirl tells Lav he's not trying to judge her, and feels like she used him to self-harm in the past. 7:52 MrGirl says he doesn't think he should propose streams with Lav. 8:44 Pxie joins Destiny's stream. She discusses DGG's reaction to aggressive-male orbiters vs aggressive-female orbiters. 18:54 MrGirl jokingly agrees that he's contributed to misogyny that has been directed at Lav for months now (with reference to "shut up lav" sound bites). 19:56 MrGirl brings up Destiny's subreddit. 20:31 Lav claims she begs for Destiny to consider her feelings with regards to the criticism she receives on the subreddit. Lav elaborates, she believes that misogyny is levied against all women, and there's a special place for it against attractive women. 22:44 Lav claims that 70% of the criticism directed at her from the subreddit, bring up how attractive she is. 25:45 MrGirl claims that Lav made her leave Destiny's orbit after a conversation the two had with one another. 28:10 Lav claims she's "killing herself" 'trying to internalize all the criticism she receives, and change. She goes on to state that the viewers become her mother in a sense. 31:42 MrGirl retorts that "Lav's mother" tearing her down is not a genuine criticism of her, and that such criticism is invalid regardless how it's framed. 38:57 MrGirl claims he's the "ph-test" for trust, and if someone doesn't trust him they likely don't trust anyone. 40:26 MrGirl tells Lav he left Destiny's orbit to set an example for her, the two then cry together. 46:20 Lav discusses her subreddit ban and her issues with 4THOT. She then claims RightToBearArmsLOL messaged her regarding her accusation of antisemitism towards Aba, and threatens to ban her if she should "weaponize her jewishness towards aba again". Upon viewing the messages, Upon viewing the messages, Destiny remarks they do not appear to be as severe as Lav claims they are. * 49:38 Destiny asserts his mods may take action without his permission, but not without his guidance. 51:33 MrGirl begins crying, he tells Lav she does not have to leave Destiny's orbit. 52:52 Destiny outlines the "abuser-tactic" MrGirl utilizes to convince Lav. 57:22 Destiny resumes the video, MrGirl and Lav share a very emotional pause. 58:54 MrGirl says he hates Aba, and assumed Lav hated aba as well. 1:03:25 MrGirl claims that Destiny banned him from r/destiny for fear of him turning his own community against him. He continues, and states that Destiny is on thin ice, and is in fear that everything may be taken away from him. MrGirl then outlines that Destiny needs a perpetual supply of orbiters for his community to dogpile on. 1:06:39 Lav then asks for MrGirl to refrain from talking about Destiny any further, for fear that they will be "torn to shreds" if they do. She claims to want to leave Destiny's community, but wants to also look "strong". 1:08:19 MrGirl claims the narrative after he left, was that he tried to take over the subreddit, and failed, so he left but is desperate for their approval and attention so he'll probably be back any moment. 1:10:24 MrGirl then outlines his "systematic-view" of what is occurring on Destiny's stream, and elaborates on why he refers to orbiters as "white blood cells". 1:11:52 MrGirl claims the be saddened by all the "pro-aba" posts on the subreddit, and states that the community will inevitably tear him down. 1:13:41 Another "emotional-pause" occurs between MrGirl and Lav, Destiny discscuses factorio optimization. 1:14:33 MrGirl claims that the one way to enable Lav to come back on Destiny's stream, is for him to suck up all of the anger, so she doesn't have to. 1:17:09 Lav laments being called a "villain" by Destiny. 1:18:46 Lav then provides the example of Destiny messaging how great she was on stream, and then proceeding to "let" Melina criticize her on her own stream. 1:21:45 Lav says she wants to talk about Destiny, but doesn't think she should. 1:23:23 MrGirl asserts he will not come back to the orbit unless "things change". He proceeds to claim he does not like streaming. 1:34:33 MrGirl claims to want to start his own audience, distanced from DGG. Lav says she wants the same. 1:35:46 Destiny claims Lav contradicts herself a lot, is internally incoherent, is inconsistent with her own beliefs, and she's in the process of changing constantly. Destiny qualifies that Lav is still very smart, however he can understand why people would perceive her to be "stupid" seeing her exhibit the aforementioned negative qualities. Destiny then points to how people will go to debate Lav, she will constantly do 1v4 debates, where people will fail against her as they did not bring "receipts" to back their arguments. 1:38:28 Responding to MrGirl's comment about being addicted to highs and lows, Destiny argues that some initially ambiguous statements become incredibly insightful upon expansion. Conversely, he notes that other statements may seem insightful but lack true depth.

Destiny addresses Lav and MrGirl's allegations. Issues a content ban on both

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Destiny Addresses Lav’s Allegations And Exposes MrGirl.

On November 10, 2022, Destiny responded to several allegations from Lav, and exposed a manifesto she had been working on with MrGirl behind the scenes. This stream occured following a call in which Lav debated several DGGers regarding REDACTED.

Destiny discusses what MrGirl and Lav have been doing behind the scenes, details his relationship with the two

At the beginning of the stream, Destiny recounts the events from the past few months up to the present and laments the current situation he finds himself in. He explains that his online interactions with most people have a minimal impact on his emotions, noting that only three people could significantly affect him in this way. However, following a recent tumultuous interpersonal drama, Destiny decided to initiate offline engagements with these individuals to foster more "human" interactions. The two people that Destiny decided to attempt these offline engagement with were MrGirl and Lav. Destiny comments that Lav, REDACTED, and Shaelin are not really at fault, describing MrGirl as a narcissistic manipulator who abuses everyone around him. He refers to MrGirl's interactions with Lav on his stream, noting the change in Lav's behavior. Destiny also mentions hearing Shaelin's comments on Chudlogic's streams and the messages he received from REDACTED. From these observations, he deduces that MrGirl has been emotionally abusing, manipulating, and gaslighting these individuals, in order to influence their feelings to suit his desires. Later on in the stream, Destiny describes how he started to receive direct messages from individuals a few days ago. These messages informed Destiny that MrGirl had been reaching out to every single women Destiny has ever had in the background on his discord, coupled with several men trying to get lists of women that Destiny has ever spoken to. Destiny then details the "fetish" MrGirl accuses him of possessing:

A family-portrait style depiction of MrGirl, Shaelin, and Lav.

"He (MrGirl) has built up this idea that I have essentially the following fetish: I approach a women, float the idea of her being on my stream, I fuck them, then I bring her on stream and I have my entire fan base attack her because I get off on that, and then I run her out of my community. He's built this narrative after farming REDACTED for information... He's trying to find every other girl that i've spoken to, to see if he could get similar stories out of them."

— Destiny

Destiny goes on to explain Lav's part in this manifesto, describing how she had revealed that destiny and her had hooked-up to MrGirl. Destiny goes on to explain his annoyance with Lav accusing him of only defending certain individuals because they hooked-up, despite the fact that he had hooked-up with her. Destiny returns focus to MrGirl and lists off what he knows about MrGirl investigative efforts:

• MrGirl has contacted at least 20-30 women
• MrGirl has been desperately attempting to get into contact with Denims and Badbunny
• MrGirl is mutual friends with every single girl on Destiny's friends list. Destiny hypothesizes that MrGirl is likely calling these girls and attempting to convince them that Destiny is acting improper or wrong.

Destiny expresses his frustration, as MrGirl is only able to confront these individuals due to very personal/private information Destiny had provided to him (something Destiny rarely does). Destiny proceeds to accuse MrGirl of using this information to deceive others and attack him covertly. Destiny claims he was a good friend to MrGirl and Lav, but assumes they don't reciprocate these feelings due to the subreddit's negative response to their onstream appearances. He continues, asserting he possesses substantial evidence of MrGirl's behind-the-scenes actions. Destiny points to Lav's comparison of him to Harvey Weinstein, attributing it to his sexual encounters with many individuals from his community (something that corresponds with MrGirl's aforementioned "fetish" accusation"). Destiny continues, and reaffirms he has no problem with MrGirl, Lav or anybody who would like to "metoo" him leaking any direct message history if they feel he has acted improper. Destiny does however express concern that MrGirl's ability to manipulate people may result in him convincing some of the individuals to believe they were actually abused (he likens this to Chaiery and Stardust's attempts at cancelling MrGirl). Destiny then remarks that he has considered pulling the plug on MrGirl's website, but has hesitated. He later expresses his frustrations in "baby-walking" individuals like Lav and MrGirl through conversations to show them where they contradict themselves/or why viewers might "hate" them, only to be called abusive by the two in response.

Highlights- Destiny recaps the events so far

3:32 Destiny states he is pressed for time, which is why he could not prepare a formal write-up for this. 4:12 Destiny attempts to throw up a quick 900 to predict how this stream will go, and regrettably scores an 882. 4:59 Destiny begins by recounting the events leading up from a few months ago to today, and laments the current situation. Destiny elaborates that when he meets people online, there is very limited interaction he will have with these individuals that would meaningfully affect his emotional state (he remarks there are three people that would affect him in such a way). However, after a rather tumultuous interpersonal drama that occured, Destiny concluded that he should reach out and engage with these individuals offline in order to encourage more "human" interactions. The two people that Destiny decided to attempt these offline engagement with were MrGirl and Lav. 7:51 Destiny remarks that Lav, REDACTED, or Shaelin, are not truly in the wrong, and that MrGirl is a narcissistic manipulator who is abusive to every person in his orbit. He refers to MrGirl's interactions with Lav on his stream, noting the change in Lav's behavior. Destiny also mentions hearing Shaelin's comments on Chudlogic's streams and the messages he received from REDACTED. From these observations, he deduces that MrGirl has been emotionally abusing, manipulating, and gaslighting these individuals, influencing their feelings to suit his desires. 9:46 Destiny puts together what he thinks MrGirl's mind looks like. He believes MrGirl is extremely narcissistic, and that he can never see himself as being incorrect. Furthermore, he states that MrGirl will put the blame of off other people for being abusive/misunderstanding if something happens and he is perceived as wrong. Destiny states that he noticed this during his conversations with MrGirl, in his inability to back off a "read" he has on a given person. Destiny also noticed this when MrGirl attempted to settle interpersonal drama, with individuals such as Lex Fridman coupled with his inability to handle criticism on twitter. 11:42 Destiny describes how he started to receive direct messages from individuals a few days ago. These messages informed Destiny that MrGirl had been reaching out to every single women Destiny has ever had in the background on his discord, coupled with several men trying to get lists of women that Destiny has ever spoken to. 12:14 Destiny describes the "fetish" MrGirl accuses him of possessing. "I approach a women, float the idea of her being on my stream if she fucks me, I fuck them, then I bring her on stream and I have my entire fan base attack her because I get off on that, and then I run her out of my community." He goes on to claim that MrGirl has built this narrative after farming REDACTED for information. He elaborates that MrGirl is actively attempting to find more women who have a similar story, in order to assist in forming this narrative. 12:56 Destiny explains Lav's part in this manifesto, explaining how she had revealed that destiny and her had hooked-up. He goes on to explain his annoyance with Lav accusing destiny of only defending certain individuals because they hooked-up, despite the fact that he had hooked-up with her. 13:35 Destiny states he is unsure how many people MrGirl has gotten into contact with so far, but that it likely exceeds 30. He also remarks that MrGirl has been desperately attempting to get into contact with Denims and Badbunny. He later points out that MrGirl is mutual friends with nearly every single female on Destiny's friends list. 14:27 Destiny explains his frustrations with MrGirl's investigation. 16:05 Destiny states he is unsure what flipped the switch in MrGirl's mind to cause him to create this manifesto. He goes on to remark that he has much evidence of MrGirl's work in the background. 16:39 Destiny points out that Lav alluded to the fact that Destiny is Harvey Weinstein because he has sex with many people that come through his community. He later points out that he has no problem with Lav or MrGirl leaking their entire DM history. 18:20 Destiny expresses concern that MrGirl's ability to manipulate people may result in him convincing some of the individuals to believe they were actually abused. 20:00 Destiny remarks that he has considered pulling the plug on MrGirl's website.

MrGirl joins the call

MrGirl joins the call, seemingly after Destiny describes the situation involving MrGirl, Shaelin (MrGirl's partner), and Lav as "incredibly creepy". He accuses Destiny of sexting consistently with REDACTED for a year and lying about REDACTED's alleged stalking. To which Destiny retorts the two have no problems with one another anymore, have been fine for a year, and are even friends currently. Destiny then chides MrGirl for making this the lynchpin of his manifesto. The two then debate for some time regarding Destiny's relationship with REDACTED. At one point Destiny, seemingly annoyed, mutes MrGirl so that he may elucidate on a position. MrGirl leaves shortly after. This is the last direct conversation the two have had.

Highlights- MrGirl joins the call

22:16 MrGirl joins, seemingly after Destiny states Shaelin is a victim of MrGirl. He accuses Destiny of "sexting consistently with REDACTED for a year" and lying about REDACTED's alleged stalking. To which Destiny replied the two have no problems with one another, and have been fine for a year. 23:12 MrGirl asserts that the last time he and Destiny spoke, Destiny alleged that REDACTED locked him in the basement of their mind. Destiny counters that this was the case over a year ago, when REDACTED spent two year nonstop talking about him. He once again emphasizes, that the two are fine currently. Destiny goes on to mock MrGirl for seemingly making his manifesto hinge on his relationship with REDACTED. 26:16 A seemingly annoyed Destiny, mutes MrGirl so that he may elaborate on his position. MrGirl leaves shortly after.

Destiny addresses Lav's allegations

Shortly after MrGirl leaves, Destiny diverts more attention towards Lav. One of Lav's primary allegations towards Destiny, was likening him to Harvey Weinstein. He comments that Lav and MrGirl share the same views about his alleged 'fetish' and his behavior as a manipulative abuser. He goes on to remark that Lav has been obsessed with MrGirl for months, and will agree with whatever he says. Destiny believes Lav was easily manipulated by MrGirl through the following tactic:

"If you apply enough pressure to somebody, when you let up off that pressure, it's always gonna feel good... This is like the classic good-cop, bad-cop played by one person... you (MrGirl) do this in every conversation you do, you always try to get someone to the edge of crying, and then once they're crying, you ease up on all the pressure, you have a nice moment of silence so they can reflect and process their emotions, and then you reenage in a more calm manner afterwards... you're almost having sex with them mentally, and now they trust you a little more."

— Destiny [SOURCE]

At one point Lav accuses Destiny (from her stream), of being a hypocrite when calling MrGirl a narcissist. Destiny retorts that Lav has little people experience, does not know what the word means, and is a very easy person to manipulate. He qualifies that he does not blame Lav for succumbing to MrGirl's tactics, but is still hurt as he confided in Lav much personally. Destiny admits he would've waited longer to address MrGirl's pending manifesto, however Lav "going crazy on stream" prompted him to take action sooner. Destiny considers barring all low-viewer streamers from appearing on his platform. He admits that he expected Lav to handle some of the criticism better, given her significant online presence before their meeting. Destiny eventually concludes he will be doing a content ban on both MrGirl and Lav.

Highlights- Lav's allegations

30:15 Destiny states Lav has been obsessed with MrGirl for months, and will agree with whatever he says. Lav accuses Destiny (from her stream), of being a hypocrite when calling MrGirl a narcissist. Destiny retorts that Lav has little people experience, does not know what the word means, and is very easy to manipulate. 31:24 Destiny calls MrGirl a "literal rapist". 32:45 Destiny references a clip in which MrGirl claims to have left Destiny's orbit for Lav. 33:55 Ninou joins the call, followed shortly by Melina. 41:04 Destiny points that there are some clips were Lav compares him to Harvey Weinstein. 44:15 Destiny admits he would've waited longer to address MrGirl's pending manifesto, however Lav "going crazy on stream" prompted him to take action sooner. He then jokes that Lav fucked things up for MrGirl. 54:37 Destiny reacts to a clip of Lav accusing Destiny of being a Harvey Weinstein. 56:00 Linusred joins the stream, to discuss Destiny's consideration of barring smaller streamers from appearing on his own stream. 1:08:55 Pxie joins the stream, and remarks that not all contentious orbiters (like herself), go crazy from the criticism they receive. 1:10:26 Lycan joins the stream. 1:14:06 Mindwaves joins the stream, and offers input on judging Lav and MrGirl's reactions to criticism. 1:20:13 Destiny questions how much responsibility he should ascribe to Lav. 1:28:17 Destiny considers blacklisting MrGirl and Lav, and later concludes that he will be doing a content ban on the duo. 1:38:04 Destiny states he's irritated by Lav's accusation that he treated Chaiery differently than her, because the two had hooked up. 1:48:57 Destiny points to a stream in which MrGirl was begging Lav to leave Destiny's community, and when she finally considers doing so, he backs off stating "you don't have to". Destiny laters identifies this as a common gaslighting tactic MrGirl utilizes. 2:00:33 Kelly Jean joins the stream, and argues that the issue with MrGril and lav did not lie in their viewer count, but more likely their underlying mental health issues. 2:07:36 Counterpoints joins the stream. 2:09:37 Melina joins, and asks Destiny what he's learned from this experience. He replies that all orbiters should be kept at a distance, and should not be trusted, even her.

Destiny Confronts Lav, several months following the release of MrGirl's manifesto

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Destiny FINALLY Confronts Lav

On March 5, 2023, Lav spoke for the first time about her previous relationship with Destiny since the release of MrGirl's manifesto in November. The video begins with Lav claiming to Stardust that REDACTED and Destiny talked about "sneaking away into rooms to fuck each other" at TwitchCon. Stardust counters, stating that REDACTED didn't even attend the event. Lav clarifies that she is merely repeating messages sent to her and MrGirl. Lav goes on to suggest that Destiny's desire to drive with herself to TwitchCon, coupled with their sexual history, likely meant he wanted to have sex with her as well. Zonia then tells Lav that Destiny had reviewed logs on his stream that day, wherein he briefly mentioned his sexual relationship with Lav, and noted their sexual-encounters ended before her appearances on his stream. She also points out that TwitchCon happened well after Lav started appearing on Destiny's stream.

Destiny eventually joins the call, seemingly eager to understand why his private sexual details are being discussed on stream. He attempts to ask Lav a question, before being interrupted by her requesting they have at least "thirty seconds of small-talk". The small-talk eventually concludes, and Destiny asks a "random-timeline" question: "When you started to come on, and there was the huge 10-15,000 streams, i'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months as that point, is that true or false?" Lav responds that they did not, but the fact that Destiny offered to "hang-out" at TwitchCon implied the "door was not closed", and that she's "not presenting anything" when she states this. Destiny then argues that Lav seems to portray herself as entering his stream's "combat-zone", becoming emotionally distressed in private due to its traumatic nature, while simultaneously suggesting that he was sexting her during this period. Destiny clarifies that the "crazy-combat stuff" on his stream has a two month buffer between when the time when they had any type of a sexual relationship. Destiny reiterates that Lav claims they had an active sexual relationship while she was being "traumatized" by his stream, and that this was not occuring, to which Lav denies ever making this claim and says she retracts such a statement if she ever made it. Destiny moves on to the next claim, and asserts that he never told Lav she had to perform some sexual act to get on his stream.

At one point, Destiny directly confronts Lav regarding the "MrGirl allegations" and chides her for being MrGirl's star-witness. Lav claims that she merely provided MrGirl with some logs, and then accuses Destiny of being a "weaselly little worm" for deleting them. Destiny asserts that the reason he deleted those logs was to protect the other individuals involved, and that no possible log-leak could hurt him, but would damage the other individuals involved. Destiny continues, stating he would never confirm or deny a sexual relationship, for fear of harming the other individuals involved. Destiny goes on to address Lav's claims of him being the "Harvey Weinstein" of Twitch (aka utilizing sexual coercion with female orbiters), to which the main thrust of her argument is that she once sent Destiny a scantily clad photo and Destiny replied "welcome to the orbiters club". Destiny laughs this off, and mocks Lav for thinking this was her "entry into his stream". Destiny then accuses Lav of looking at the most publicly facing sexual relationships Destiny has had, and trying to condemn all of his relationships by that standard, he goes on to accuse Lav of being a habitual liar.

Lav accuses Destiny of talking shit about her for several months, and that she has remained silent. Destiny replies that he only brings MrGirl and Lav up when they bring him up, he then accuses Lav of sexually abusing him by leaking the details of their hookups with an individual whom she knows hates him. Destiny claims to have never spoken about any of the times Lav has talked shit about her fiance , Connor, publicly. Lav shrieks in response, and states that if Destiny wishes to have this conversation, he can never bring up her fiance again. Destiny responds that he will continue to do so, if she insists on shit talking his partner. Destiny continues, and claims Lav's entire online existence is dedicated to threatening to out him as the Harvey Weinstein of twitch. Lav denies this, to which Destiny reiterates that she is the star witness on the article, and that she is the individual who dragged REDACTED to MrGirl as another star witness. The conversation continues, and Destiny claims to have explictily messaged Lav in private to see if she's okay, and she allegedly responded in the affirmative. Lav claims she never thought Destiny was coercive or abusive, and that was MrGirl's perspective. Destiny then pointedly asks Lav what he has done to wrong her, to which Lav responds she can discuss that with Destiny in private. Destiny then claims that they have had this discussion in private, but Lav was already working with a guy at the time who was trying to wright a sexual-assault piece on him. Lav eventually confesses that she felt uncomfortable in their open-ended sexual relationship, and felt like Destiny was letting people (like Aba) shit on her. Destiny then asks Lav how she would respond in a hypothetical scenario where a conversation Lav was interested in discussing was occuring on stream, she wanted to join, and Destiny responded that she could not join because they hooked up, he claims Lav would not respond well. Lav then states she would respond kindly in such a scenario, to which Destiny accuses Lav of lying, and reiterates he in still unsure what he did wrong by her.

The conversation continues, and Lav emphasies that she was a smaller content creator that Destiny should have protected. Destiny counters that Lav routinely bragged about being a larger content creator than him. He then questions why Lav would continuously invite the harassment, and brag about being a "villain". Lav claims that this was merely a cope to deal with public outcry, and claims that her suicidal feelings were not attributed to being on Destiny's stream but her use of benzos. Destiny points to a clip of Lav asserting that the worst times in her life was when she was drafted into a cult at 16, followed by November when she was on his stream (during which she never claimed to be medicated). When pressed, she claims she didn't want to bring it up for fear of Destiny's community using it as an excuse to torment her. Lav then claims to have watched Destiny ban emotes in his chatroom, and cites this as a reason that he should do some "cleanup" around her. Destiny responds, stating he did take actions, and that the criticism she received actually inspired the anti-misogyny arc within his community. As the conversation concludes, Destiny decides to draw a comparison to how he has treated Lav vs how MrGirl has. He points out the only reason MrGirl and Lav are connected is because he rebuilt that bridge after MrGirl accused Lav of being an "attention whore pedophile" and banned her from his discord.

Debate Highlights. Editor Note: Timestamps link to a now removed video. Timestamps to be updated eventually.

0:02 Lav claims that REDACTED and Destiny were talking about "sneaking away into rooms to fuck each other" while at TwitchCon. Stardust retorts that REDACTED was not even at TwitchCon, to which Lav replies she only knows what REDACTED sent to her and MrGirl. The two debate this for some time, with Stardust insisting that Destiny wanted to hang out with Lav as a "friend", while Lav insisting Destiny wished to have sex with her at TwitchCon. 3:12 Destiny joins the call. He questions why his sex-life details are being discussed on stream, then attempts to ask Lav a question before she interrupts him. Lav requests they all take a breath, requests this not be a crazy conversation as this is the first time they've talked since November, and would like "thirty seconds of small-talk". 5:35 The "small-talk" concludes and Destiny asks a "random-timeline" question: "When you started to come on, and there was the huge 10-15,000 streams, i'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months as that point, is that true or false?" Lav responds that they did not, but the fact that Destiny offered to "hang-out" at TwitchCon was there. 6:48 Destiny states what Lav is presenting the twitchcon situation as. 7:49 Destiny states that he and Lav had not done anything overtly sexual for over two months. Destiny reiterates that Lav claims they had an active sexual relationship while she was being "traumatized" by his stream, and that this was not occuring, to which Lav denies ever making this claim and says she retracts such a statement if she ever made it. 8:43 Destiny asserts, that at no point in time either implicitly or explicitly, did he ever tell Lav she had to perform some sexual act to get on his stream. 9:13 Lav claims that MrGirl and her feel differently about Destiny's attempted cancellation. Destiny retorts that Lav is MrGirl's "star-witness", and that the two are supporting one another. Lav then counters that she merely provided MrGirl with chat logs, and accuses Destiny of being a "weaselly little worm" for deleting them. Destiny asserts that the reason he deleted those logs was to protect the other individuals involved, and that no possible log-leak could hurt him, but would damage the other individuals involved. 10:35 Destiny claims that at least ten different people have messaged him a list of people MrGirl has accused Destiny of having sex with. Destiny claims to not have had sex with half the people on this list. 12:17 Lav claims that Kelly Jean accused Destiny of trying to sleep with her, and she said no. Destiny retorts that he did flirt with her, but never made a sexual advance. 13:00 Lav states she sent Destiny a scantily clad photo and Destiny replied "welcome to the orbiters club". Destiny laughs this off, and chides Lav for thinking this was her "entry into his stream". 14:49 Destiny accuses Lav of looking at the most publicly facing sexual relationships Destiny has had, and trying to condemn all of his relationships by that standard. 1600 Lav accuses Destiny of talking shit about her for several months, and that she has remained silent. Destiny replies that he only brings MrGirl and Lav up when they bring him up, he then accuses Lav of sexually abusing him by leaking the details of their hookups with an individual whom she knows hates him. 16:35 Destiny claims to have never spoken about any of the times Lav has talked shit about her fiance , Connor, publicly. Lav shrieks in response, and states that if Destiny wishes to have this conversation, he can never bring up her fiance again. Destiny responds that he will continue to do so, if she insists on shit talking his partner. 18:19 Destiny claims Lav's entire online existence is dedicated to threatening to out him as the Harvey Weinstein of twitch. Lav denies this, to which Destiny reiterates that she is the star witness on the article, and that she is the individual who dragged REDACTED to MrGirl as another star witness. 20:49 Destiny berates Lav for attempting to leak personal hookup details regarding his relationships, and accuses Lav of attempting to play the victim in this scenario. He goes on to state that Lav has done nothing but betray his trust, and the trust of every other individual involved for nothing. 21:43 Stardust attempts to chime in, but is immediately shot down by Lav who informs her that she is trying to have a conversation with Destiny. 22:38 Destiny claims to have explictily messaged Lav in private to see if she's okay, and she allegedly responded in the affirmative. Lav claims she never thought Destiny was coercive or abusive, and that was MrGirl's perspective. Destiny then pointedly asks Lav what he has done to wrong her, to which Lav responds she can discuss that with Destiny in private. Destiny then claims that they have had this discussion in private, but Lav was already working with a guy at the time who was trying to wright a sexual-assault piece on him. 23:51 Lav claims to have no read any portion of MrGirl's manifesto, to which Destiny points to times Lav has explicitly mentioned portions of the manifesto. Destiny then asks once more what he's done to wrong Lav. 25:35 Lav states she felt uncomfortable in their open-ended sexual relationship, and felt like Destiny was letting people (like Aba) shit on her. 28:03 Lav begins to discusses the "nuances" of their relationship, to which Destiny tells Lav to shut up and that there were no nuances in their relationship as Destiny was overtly explicit about every aspect. 29:39 Destiny asks Lav once more what he could have done differently in their relationship. Lav responds she's not sure, and that she's not a relationship coach. Destiny then asserts that Lav has no real issues with him, and questions why she is running to an individual trying to create a sexual-assault manifesto against him. 32:02 When pressed, Lav confesses that she doesn't think Destiny has done anything truly evil, but his actions have warranted a conversation. 34:08 To Lav's point that she's a smaller content creator, and Destiny should have been more careful about criticism she received from his audience. Destiny counters that Lav routinely bragged about being a larger content creator than him. He then questions why Lav would continuously invite the harassment, and brag about being a "villain". Lav claims that this was merely a cope to deal with public outcry, and claims that her suicidal feelings were not attributed to being on Destiny's stream but her use of benzos. Destiny points to a clip of Lav asserting that the worst times in her life was when she was drafted into a cult at 16, and then November when she was on his stream. 38:05 Lav claims to have watched Destiny ban emotes, and cites this as a reason that he should do some "cleanup" around her. Destiny responds, that he did take actions, and that the criticism she received actually inspired the anti-misogyny arc within his community. 48:19 Lav claims to not know Destiny very well. Destiny finds this amusing as she seems to have so much to say about his wife, and relationships. 51:05 Destiny points out the only reason MrGirl and Lav are connected is because he rebuilt that bridge, after MrGirl accused Lav of being an attention whore pedophile and banned her from his discord. 58:15 Destiny says his goodbyes to Lav.

Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip

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Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip.

On November 3, 2023, Destiny joined a Tomfoolery panel featuring Lav, and a leftist-influencer by the name of Catnip who recently had a negative experience debating Destiny. The video opens with Lav claiming that Destiny has spent ten years in "constant-hate", and claiming that Destiny wants to "create villains" in order to divert the hatred he receives. Tomfoolery, the host of the panel, takes issue with this assertion, and is immediately met with several rebuttals from both Lav and Catnip, with the latter accusing Destiny of lying about her. Destiny eventually joins the call, and remarks that all the worst people on the internet are talking about him while he's trying to sleep. Tomfoolery then informs Destiny that Catnip had accused him of lying, and the two discuss for some time. At one point Destiny concludes that Catnip is an emotionally manipulative individual for choosing to bring up both Reckful and a former friend's suicide, to which Lav comes to her defense stating that she should cut out all negative feedback from her life if she truly knows who she is. Destiny remarks that this sounds eerily similar to something MrGirl would say, and the discussion about why Catnip is an emotionally abusive individual, and her choice to bring up two prior acquaintances suicides, continues for some time. The conversation eventually diverges into a discussion on sex-work, and Destiny leaves the call.

Drama between Destiny, Lav, and "blondie"

Destiny explaining Lav's "cope".

Unknown Date

On an unknown date In DGG orbiter jstlk's discord server, Lav and another girl ("blondie") posted nudes in the server's "lewd-channel" in an attempt to one-up each other. At one point, Blondie posted a picture of herself with cum on her rear-end. This cum was later revealed to be Destiny's. From this point, an altercation occurs over discord wherein Destiny (aided by blondie), and Lav hurls insults at one another for some time. The drama reaches a climax when Destiny DMs Lav saying to go easy on blondie and that people actually do think Lav is prettier, Lav leaks these logs, and Blondie shows logs where her and Destiny conspired to trick Lav into doing so.

February 15, 2024

On February 15, 2024 Destiny joined Lav on jstlk's stream to deliberate about the drama. During the conversation, Lav's primary contention was that Destiny's action proved her point several months ago regarding his supposed fetish of "humiliating girls on his stream after they hookup." Destiny maintains that this is not the case, and he merely enjoys seeing Lav angry. Despite the logs of what transpired being publically available, and the best attempts of both parties to persuade the other of their wrongdoings, no individual moves from their prior position.

January 18, 2024

Destiny shows a log of Lav "begging" him to be on her podcast.

Destiny showing his entire chat history with Lav.

On January 18, 2024 Lav and Destiny had yet another argument in jstlk's discord. This argument was primarily contained within the general chatroom, and lasted from 3:06 PM EST to 4:44 PM EST. During the dispute, Destiny once again actively maintained that Lav's claim about his "getting-off" to girls in his community harassing one another was baseless. He explains that Lav just uses this as a "cope with the fact that she can't help but attack literally every single woman she comes into contact with". Destiny went on to claim that Lav has a habit of embarrassing herself (and had been doing so for years), and had to rename herself on the internet five times in the past couple of years.

Destiny then explains the "lav cycle":

"Lav cycle - join community, get all of the men on your side by shipping dozens of nudes to their DMs, attack every single woman based on appearance, inevitably win fights because no one can compete with someone that hungry for attention who can spend that many hours on Discord literally every single day posting and posting and posting." - Destiny

Destiny elaborates on the "Lav cycle," attributing it to her refusal to coexist with other women in any space. He describes her as the epitome of the "classic archetypical discord chatroom queen," where there's only room for one woman to be "simped over," and all other women are seen as threats. When questioned why he doesn't simply let Lav continue to embarrass herself and avoid giving her acknowledgement. Destiny responds that her way of coping with the massive amount of hate she receives is to spread lies about him, claiming he encourages women he has been intimate with to fight with each other for his own gratification.

After a chatter claims Destiny "weaponized" Lav against Blondie, Destiny counters by saying he simply found the dispute amusing and encouraged it because he enjoyed watching Lav get angry. He clarifies that he finds it extremely entertaining "when super smug, over-entitled people who offer nothing get checked." He asserts that Lav's claim is yet another "massive cope" on her part to rationalize the hatred she receives after behaving aggressively or meanly towards others. Destiny then claims that Lav's "entire personality is her pussy", and that the only thing she can brag about is her looks and attack others appearance. Lav counters by stating that they had never been sexually involved, yet he continued to engage her in conversation. Destiny replies that she had been messaging him a month earlier, pleading for him to appear as a guest on her podcast. Lav denies this, claims she no longer had access to the account Destiny showed logs from anymore, and accuses Destiny of cropping the screenshots to make himself look good. Destiny then responds with more logs, showing their conversation, to which Lav requests that he post the whole chat history. Destiny then posts their entire chat history until her "account left", and wishes Lav luck.

Destiny reacts to Lav crying for mod privileges on jstlk's discord server

On February 20, 2024, Destiny reacted to a vod where Lav, in the process of attempting to earn moderation status on jstlk's server, broke down in tears.

In the video, Lav claims to want moderation status on the server in order to prevent the bullying she has already received, and suggests that jstlk can remove her moderation privileges at any time should he wish. She goes on to accuse jstlk of withholding moderation status from her, despite her contributions to his stream's traffic, as a way to signal to his viewers that she is "bad and unworthy" of the role. Destiny remarks that Lav is a crybully upon hearing this, and laughs when Lav suggests that having moderation powers would "make the days go easier".

After jstlk holds firm in his refusal to give Lav moderation privileges, Lav breaks down in tears and Destiny jokes he has to turn off his camera in order to pleasure himself. The video progresses, and Lav accuses jstlk of being kind to her in private messages, but cold to her on stream. Destiny pauses the vod and remarks that this is the exact same criticism Lav had attempted to levy towards himself in the past, and warns jstlk to be careful. The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop". Destiny then points out Lav's "manipulation tactic":

"Oh my god, how can she be this fucking stupid! If you want to be a master-manipulator women...here's what you need to do... you should be forced to live for like one year in an average women's body... or a guy's body... because men and plain women have to work hard on their manipulative tactics. But Lav's manipulation is okay... but then she just compensates with looking pretty and shipping nudes to everybody. Absent those last two things, if a guy is not desperate for her, or if she doesn't have a guy under her thumb because she's shipping them nudes, she is like nothing, and then she has an absolute meltdown... Stop being an asshole to everybody, stop being a massive cunt to everybody in chat, stop shipping your nudes to people in channels over and over again and shitting on them for their appearance... you can't be so aggressive and cry over it."

— Destiny [SOURCE]

Destiny then states that Lav is attempting to externalize reasons for jstlk not giving her mod by implying jstlk has no autonomy, and is being pressured by outside forces (jstlk eventually states he was receiving no dms during this conversation).

As the video progresses, Lav complains to jstlk about discord users posting pictures of her in an unflattering position with her dog. Destiny points out that these images were being posted after Lav accused Zoe (aka blondie) of highlighting her own dog in explicit images of herself as a form of beastilaity. Destiny eventually moves back to the timestamp in the vod where the two debate, and finds it amusing that Lav's request for moderation powers occurred shortly after this debate.

Reaction Highlights

Lav has a bone to pick with jstlk 19:49 Lav claims she has a "bone to pick" with jstlk because he initially refused to grant her moderation powers. She asserts that jstlk awarded Kelly Jean moderation status for the same reasons she seeks it and proposes that if she ever misuses the powers, jstlk can revoke them. She goes on to accuse jstlk of withholding moderation status from her, despite her contributions to his stream's traffic, as a way to signal to his viewers that she is "bad and unworthy" of the role. Lauren De Laguna asks Lav why she wants mod powers, to which Lav responds she is being harassed consistently, and that these individuals would do it less if they knew she had mod powers. Destiny pauses the video and remarks that Lav is a crybully. She then states that members of the discord "spam post" explicit photos of her (photos which she had previously shared on the discord). Lauren replies that she is surprised such behavior bothers her at all, and questions why Lav would even want to hang out here if she feels harassed. Lav responds that she enjoys her time on the server, and that moderation powers would "make the days go easier". Destiny pauses the video again and laughs. Lav then points to an instance in which she messaged jstlk a chatter whom she considered to be harassing her. Jstlk responds that he likes said chatter, and that his actions (a photo of a grill) did not seem to constitute a significant enough amount of harassment to warrant a ban. Lav begins crying 25:19 After jstlk holds firm in his refusal to give Lav moderation privileges, Lav breaks down in tears and Destiny jokes he has to turn off his camera as he is receiving "intense sexual gratification from this" and needs to masturbate. After briefly exiting the call, Lav returns (still sobbing), and remarks: "it's hard for me to understand, with friendships online, what is real and what is fake. It has been really embarrassing for me to try and navigate that, because i'm usually wrong. So in dms, you (jstlk ) are usually very kind to me, and I feel like you are trying to take care of me, and then we get on stream and you are different and you are trying to virtue signal to chat, and I feel like you are trying to farm me for views..." Destiny pauses the video, laughs, and points out that Lav is trying to attack jstlk in the same fashion she did him. The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop" harassing her. Destiny pauses the video once more and discusses Lav's manipulation tactic. He states that Lav's manipulation abilities are okay, but are heavily compensated by her appearance and proclivity to send explicit images of herself to many individuals. He then points out that if these tactics fail, and if a "guy is not desperate for her", she has nothing and will proceed to have an "absolute meltdown". Lav requests for mod once more, and jstlk once again tells her no and advises her to stop "coming at different angles" for this. Jstlk goes on to accuse Lav of violating a boundary he established by requesting this conversation be had off-stream. Lav replies that it is "very hard to parse a relationship" with jstlk, to which jstlk and Wolfgand reiterate they should have this conversation off-stream. 35:44 Destiny explains Lav's line of thought when attempting to cope with jstlk's refusal to mod her. He accuses Lav of implying that jstlk has no agency, and is attempting to externalize reasons for him not giving her mod. Lav vs Blondie, dog wars 30:45 After Lav complains to jstlk about discord users posting pictures of her in an unflattering position with her dog, Destiny points out that these images were being posted after Lav accused Zoe (aka blondie) of highlighting her own dog in explicit images of herself as a form of beastilaity. 37:14 Destiny moves back to the timestamp in the vod where Lav debates Blondie.

Reaction timestamps

19:21 Destiny begins reacting to jstlk's vod. 19:49 Lav claims to have a "bone to pick" with jstlk. 20:28 Lauren questions Lav's moderation request. 22:42 Lav points to an instance in which she messaged jstlk a chatter whom she considered to be harassing her. Jstlk responds that he likes said chatter, and that his actions did not seem to constitute a significant enough amount of harassment to warrant a ban. 25:19 Destiny is given a timestamp to later in the vod to where Lav begins crying. 26:24 Jstlk requests that Lav have this conversation off stream with him. 30:45 Destiny identifies the reason discord users were posting images of Lav with her dog. 34:18 Wolfgand chimes in, Destiny is concerned that he may begin to "simp" over Lav. Wolfgand does not, and Destiny is relieved. 37:14 Destiny moves back in the vod where Lav debates Blondie.

Lav blacklisted

Logs of Destiny blacklisting Lav.

On February 22, 2024, Destiny blacklisted Lav from his streams following her dissemination of allegedly false details pertaining to their brief sexual encounter and his genitalia on a twitch stream.

Lav Divorced

Lav claiming to have never been married

On September 22, 2024, Lav, in response to an inquiry from an X.com user, claims to have never been married.

On October 14, 2024, Destiny discovered Lav's response, and praises himself for predicting the couple's breakup. Destiny then questions if Lav's husband divorced her, or if they were never truly married.

On January 4, 2025 Destiny confirms that Lav is divorced, and had been broken up with her boyfriend since around April, 2024. Destiny goes on to confirm that she had been cheating on her husband with Kick livestreamer GoonerGooch.

Notable Clips, videos, logs, tweets, and Reddit Threads

Lav

Lav debates on the Playing With Fire channel

On November 9, 2022, Lav joined Alex to debate a wide range of contemporary social and personal issues.

Destiny requests a timeline of Lav's lies

On May 4, 2023 Destiny requested a list of defamatory claims Lav had levied against his person. The top comment from reddit user 4amaroni, went into great detail:

• "Compartmentalized sexual relationship in which it was like payment for stream time" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRlMXoBFTmI&t=423s

• "I think we had a completely consensual, very uh, completely consensual. I had no qualms with it, don't have a problem with it" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90thbmSNMo&t=2394s

• Twitter post with several false claims of abuse: https://imgur.com/cTGY4wb

• "I've never made any claims, like, that he raped me. I've always said that our relationship was completely consensual and very pleasant." - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=806

• "If Max writes an article, and it is frivolous and hyperbolic and not based in reality and completely allegory and tries to paint a picture of abuse without any substantial evidence, I will make a public statement denouncing it" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=1697

• "I never said we had an active sexual relationship in November, ever. I never made that claim" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=8072

• Screenshot of posts/chats with Lav lying about Genevieve, Pxie, Kelly Jean - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=462

• "I'm not going to talk to someone who is actively abusing, who actively abuses everyone he comes into contact with. I don't think he abuses everyone he comes into contact with, but who is actively abusing me." - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=3946

• "If I'm giving you sexual favors. If I'm sending you pictures of my feet, maybe don't call me a fucking abuser on stream because I don't like when you call me a dumb bitch" - https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx11km2xbZUM2rCQoXoSkdgD-bE2uM8m0y

MrGirl Rumble stream on Feb 27th

• 1:23:11 "I traded this relationship for airtime"
• 1:26:57 "Some part of me wishes that I was still sending feet pictures"
• 2:24:00 "I'm just glad that you caught the things that he did. Like the 'Welcome to the Orbiter's Club thing' I can't believe that. Teaser!"
• 2:24:36 "I didn't know that Harvey Weinstein had rape alle- interrupted by MrGirl"
• 2:47:21 "I'm scared that you've convinced me that Steven is an abuser"
• 3:21:27 "Trades her body for airtime. She knew what she was getting into"
• 3:22:09 "I got it. I got the airtime"
• Lav retracts Weinstein statement against Destiny: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhVoYmcWYAAFAyt?format=jpg&name=900x900

• Compilation of lies in a subreddit post on Redacted's subreddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/mrgirlreturns/comments/11jk3xl/the_thirteen_lies_of_lav_from_last_nights_stream/?ref=share&ref_source=link

• Album of Lav's original Patreon post: https://imgur.com/a/8Ar0uIp
• Archive of Lav's Patreon post: https://archive.ph/cn4yW

Of note:

"I did not open my relationship for Steven, I did not close it because of Steven. What I didn’t anticipate was becoming part of stevens orbit in the way I had. I did not knowingly consent to a scenario Of being evaluated for my performance, being told I brought views and clicks and content, and existing in the social contract I did, after having a sexual dynamic with him, and I didn’t realize how many of the women in the orbit had the same social contract I did."

In case there's some want by Destiny's lawyer to see Lav has a trend of behavior throwing out false accusations, later contradicting or retracting them, and then later re-asserting them:

• Lav accuses Hasan of having sex with two of her friends when they were underage: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041825963694112778/image.png

• Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with a 17 year old when he was 24: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041826487067742318/image.png

• Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with her friend when she was underage: https://i.imgur.com/L3Ym2Rv.png

• Lav reiterates her friend was underage: https://i.imgur.com/v5g8y6D.png

• Lav says she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/2SQHVeI.png

• Lav reiterates she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/YmzYFeg.png

• Lav denies having signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv05vLWQAU8e26?format=png&name=small

• Lav reiterates she's never signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv1GtpWIAAPWSt?format=png&name=small

• Lav says she only clarified the age of her friend because Hasan threatened legal action. Still insists her friend was underage: https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxBRjxJV9nARusNEzri8vCXWKW_gevcDjY https://streamable.com/w7gg6o
• Lav insists she did not publicly accuse of Hasan of anything substantial. Retracts claim her friend was underage. Later says Hasan should go to jail for having paid for services from prostitutes in the past: https://obscenegaming.net/clips/TolerantBraveHerringTheThing-Fk1D3I0m7Uubiq76

• Lav retracts claims about her friend being underage. Admits she made a false allegation in ChudLogic's discord: https://streamable.com/k2h915

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