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[[File: | {{Infobox Person | ||
| person_name = Lav | |||
| image = LavLune.jpg | |||
| caption = Lea Jane | |||
| person_status = Retired<ref>https://twitter.com/bordeauxxheaux/status/1791519785898979488</ref><ref>Imgur backup https://imgur.com/a/Q38FKd9</ref> [[File:LeRuse.png|20px]] | |||
| political_alignment = Republican Tradwife | |||
| person_age = 26 | |||
| qualifications = Billie Eilish liked one of her songs<ref>https://www.nme.com/features/nme-radar-lav-heartbreaking-poet-with-songs-envied-by-billie-eilish-2666899</ref> | |||
| occupation = Rage-baiter (Retired) | |||
| country = USA | |||
| website = [https://deeplyunpopularwoman.substack.com/ Substack] | |||
| twitter = phemoid | |||
| instagram = lavlune | |||
| youtube = | |||
| stock = | |||
| awards = [[File:DestinyAwards.png|35px]] [[Destiny_Awards#Brainlet of the Year - The NoBullshit Award|2022 Brainlet {{tooltip|of the Year|OTY}}]] | |||
}} | |||
'''Lea Jane''', also known as '''LavLune'''—or more commonly '''Lav'''—is a singer, TikTok content creator, feminist and <s>former</s> <s>current</s> <s>former</s> [https://twitter.com/phemoid/status/1768413971214692787| soon-to-be] OnlyFans content creator. She gained notoriety as one of the most contentious [[:Category:Orbiters| orbiters]] to appear on [[Destiny]]'s stream. | |||
Her initial on-stream discussions focused primarily on her unique perspective on sex work debates as a former OnlyFans model.<ref>https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_debates_sex_work_and_ethics_on_a_ChudLogic_panel </ref> <ref> https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_discusses_sex_work_and_feminism_with_Destiny,_debates_pornography_with_Kai_Clips </ref> However, her proclivity to take strong positions on certain topics, coupled with a tendency to quickly reverse her positions and apologize post-debate, plunged these discussions into controversy.<ref> https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ypc5m9/since_lav_is_always_asking_help_composite_a_list/ </ref> This behavior attracted severe criticism from much of Destiny's community, especially the subreddit members, which resulted in many "meta" discussions on how Destiny moderated his community.<ref> https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_discusses_misogyny_and_community_moderation_on_a_panel_featuring_Aba_and_Sneako </ref> Lav frequently accused Destiny of creating an environment that antagonized his community against her, attributing this partly to his failure to moderate criticism of orbiters and his on-stream critiques of her, which also received negative reactions from the subreddit.<ref>https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Orbiter_Civil_War_AKA_Lav_and_12_other_orbiters_yell_at_each_other_for_several_hours </ref> <ref> https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_confronts_Lav_after_reacting_to_her_talking_about_him_on_other_streams_AKA_Destiny_takes_off_the_%22kids_gloves%22_and_yells_at_Lav </ref><ref> https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_Reacts_To_MrGirl_And_Lav_Crying_Together </ref> <ref> https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/wiwxe7/why_does_anybody_take_lav_seriously/ </ref> | |||
== On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas | She was eventually found assisting former orbiter [[MrGirl]] in developing a massive [https://mrgirl.substack.com/p/the-destiny-report manifesto], wherein Destiny was accused of fetishizing the conflict which occured on stream between individuals he had been intimate with.<ref> https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_addresses_Lav_and_MrGirl's_allegations._Issues_a_content_ban_on_both </ref> Lav was temporarily excised from the community as a result of her assistance in the manifesto, and eventually ended her friendship with MrGirl.<ref>Tom Foolery Show. (2023, October 3). President Sunday Roasts Actual Jake. YouTube. https://youtu.be/wAsAV0o_Acg?t=11286 </ref> She has changed her username many times, and currently goes by <s>"impishlly"</s> "phemoid". | ||
On November 27, 2023, Destiny claimed to have somewhat mended the bridge between himself and Lav(with some stipulations regarding what they may discuss).<ref> Just CHILLIN’, Kick or Keep tonight at 6 EST. (November 27th, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 28, 2023, from https://youtu.be/UywMih48AYg?t=13513 </ref> Lav was permitted to appear on panels with Destiny (i.e. [[Kick or Keep]]), but any conversations related to personal issues/grievances the two may have were not permitted. | |||
As of February 21, 2024, Lav has been [[Obsidian Notes#Blacklist|blacklisted]] once again as a result of her appearances on [https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Jstlk jstlk's] streams and consistent toxic behavior.<ref> https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T03%3A54%3A54.480Z&username=destiny </ref> | |||
== On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas == | |||
=== Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav === | === Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav === | ||
On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionally dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position. | {{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k|300px|right| '''Destiny Moderates MrGirl vs Lav Debate (Gaslighting, Boundaries, Abuse).'''}} | ||
On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in, Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionally dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position. | |||
While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation. | While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation. | ||
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* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=576 9:36] Lav accuses MrGirl of getting mad at Destiny for not taking a "deliberate stance" about him. MrGirl says he does not care about the reasons but does care about the lack of a stance, to which Lav accuses MrGirl of lying. | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=576 9:36] Lav accuses MrGirl of getting mad at Destiny for not taking a "deliberate stance" about him. MrGirl says he does not care about the reasons but does care about the lack of a stance, to which Lav accuses MrGirl of lying. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=911 15:11] Lav describes how she "molds" her husband to take care of her, and makes the claim that MrGirl does the same with his girlfriend. Lav goes on to describe MrGirl as unintentionally "skeevy" in the way he goes about this molding. | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=911 15:11] Lav describes how she "molds" her husband to take care of her, and makes the claim that MrGirl does the same with his girlfriend. Lav goes on to describe MrGirl as unintentionally "skeevy" in the way he goes about this molding. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1225 20:35] | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1225 20:35] When asked what she (Lav) would do if her partner was crying or facing emotional turmoil in another room, Lav replied that she would try to ignore her partner and later express her frustration with them once they've calmed down. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1532 25:30] | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1532 25:30] Lav accuses MrGirl of "over-indexing" boundaries because he is bad at establishing them. MrGirl counters that Lav does train people, and accuses her of wanting him to use emotional/physical withdrawal to "train" his girlfriend(which he describes as abusive). Lav then accuses MrGirl of using her as a punching bag to vent his frustrations about Destiny. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1790 29:50] Lav joins the call. Destiny offers her some advice, telling her she must be "very chill" in order to challenge someone, particularly MrGirl, on their behavior. | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=1790 29:50] Lav joins the call. Destiny offers her some advice, telling her she must be "very chill" in order to challenge someone, particularly MrGirl, on their behavior. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=2011 33:31] Lav states she "would never date a man who cries". | * [https://youtu.be/OcARJDJ4y6k?t=2011 33:31] Lav states she "would never date a man who cries". | ||
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=== Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate === | === Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate === | ||
On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, | On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, accusing him of misunderstanding the financial struggles of sex workers when comparing them to other professions like doctors.<ref>“Destiny Has A Big Problem With Me” Ex-Sex Worker CONFRONTS Destiny In Pre-Panel Debate. (August 7, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqSHS5ncGsQ</ref> The two discussed the societal implications of sex work(particularly on platforms like OnlyFans), it's role in the dehumanization of women, and the tendency for it to set unrealistic beauty standards. They debated the role of personal responsibility in women who choose to partake in sex work, with Lav pointing to the potential negative impacts of sex work on society, while Destiny argued that the issue lies more with societal engagement and overindulgence in technology rather than with sex work itself. | ||
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=== Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel === | === Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel === | ||
On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, Dan, [[Sneako]], and MrGirl, to discuss several topics including OnlyFans, sex work, AI porn, and [[Dogwarts]].<ref>Destiny, Dan & MrGirl Bully S*x Workers for 4 Hours. (August 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 5, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhljHCOOC08</ref> Much like her prior appearances, Lav takes the position that sex work is a net-negative to society and should be heavily regulated. As there are multiple sex-workers([[TafTaj]] and Jenavive) on the call, much contention arises. This conversation quickly becomes heated as multiple "shit-stirrers" are present in the call. | |||
On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, | |||
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* [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=1890 31:30], MrGirl chooses to bring up Lav, stating that she advertises her OnlyFans by saying on streams that it harms her. Destiny is quick to point out that she deleted all but one post on her OnlyFans. | * [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=1890 31:30], MrGirl chooses to bring up Lav, stating that she advertises her OnlyFans by saying on streams that it harms her. Destiny is quick to point out that she deleted all but one post on her OnlyFans. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=2151 35:51], MrGirl says he banned Lav from his discord for sexualizing minors(she posted pictures of herself as a child and asked for "tributes"). | * [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=2151 35:51], MrGirl says he banned Lav from his discord for sexualizing minors(she posted pictures of herself as a child and asked for "tributes"). | ||
* [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=2762 46:02], | * [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=2762 46:02], Dan and Lav join the call. Lav takes issue with MrGirl claiming she sexualized minors, and banning her from his discord. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=5299 1:28:19], Lav states that the sharing of nude images between partners is problematic(shortly after stating she is not sex-negative). | * [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=5299 1:28:19], Lav states that the sharing of nude images between partners is problematic(shortly after stating she is not sex-negative). | ||
* [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=5964 1:39:24] Destiny provides the example of Portugal, a country that decriminalized all porn, and saw the rates of sexual assaults fall. He goes on to say that no such study exists linking the increase in the consumption of porn to an increase in sexual assault, to which Lav responds: "look for it, it's there, I promise..." Destiny rebukes that he has "looked for it" and found the opposite to be true in every study(i.e. consumption of porn in fact reduces chances for sexual assault). | * [https://youtu.be/VhljHCOOC08?t=5964 1:39:24] Destiny provides the example of Portugal, a country that decriminalized all porn, and saw the rates of sexual assaults fall. He goes on to say that no such study exists linking the increase in the consumption of porn to an increase in sexual assault, to which Lav responds: "look for it, it's there, I promise..." Destiny rebukes that he has "looked for it" and found the opposite to be true in every study(i.e. consumption of porn in fact reduces chances for sexual assault). | ||
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=== Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream === | === Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream === | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM|300px|right| ''' PURE CHAOS Destiny, Lav, Brittany, MrGirl & Dan Drama Panel.'''}} | |||
On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another(primarily between Brittany and Lav).<ref> PURE CHAOS | Destiny, Lav, Brittany, MrGirl & | On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another(primarily between Brittany and Lav).<ref> PURE CHAOS | Destiny, Lav, Brittany, MrGirl & Dan| Drama Panel. (August 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 5, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zH6yO_16lM </ref> The "panel" initially started as a one on one discussion between Destiny and Lav, wherein she had many negative things to say about [https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Brittany_Simon Brittany Simon]. The conversation quickly devolved into a shouting match as more orbiters elected to join the discord call, and known shit-stirrer Dan contributed to the chaos. During the conversation, Lav and MrGirl try to convince a very high Brittany that her method of operating her Patreon and the “levels" system she utilizes are harmful. However, the disparate ways in which MrGirl and Lav present their messages leads to conflict between the two. By the end of the conversation Lav agrees with Brittany that she is smart enough to know what she's doing, and is truthfully engaging in harm reduction(Destiny argues that she likely states this to spite MrGirl). | ||
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* [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=450 7:30] Lav clarifies that when she says "sex work is bad" she really means "sex work is bad for me", and emphasizes that she isn't suggesting that women should quit sex work in society. | * [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=450 7:30] Lav clarifies that when she says "sex work is bad" she really means "sex work is bad for me", and emphasizes that she isn't suggesting that women should quit sex work in society. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=776 12:58] Lav describes herself as "very dogmatic". She adds that she asserts her answers as correct for any topic, even if she has limited knowledge about it. She goes on to describe her "unintentional" tendency to state her opinions as prescriptions/fact. | * [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=776 12:58] Lav describes herself as "very dogmatic". She adds that she asserts her answers as correct for any topic, even if she has limited knowledge about it. She goes on to describe her "unintentional" tendency to state her opinions as prescriptions/fact. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=1155 19:15] Lav accuses Destiny of being a terrible advocate for open relationships, citing dramas involving [[Chaeiry]] and | * [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=1155 19:15] Lav accuses Destiny of being a terrible advocate for open relationships, citing dramas involving [[Chaeiry]] and Dan. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=1938 32:18] After stating her contentions with Open relationships Lav describes her "discord husband" whom she constantly sexually harasses. She goes on to say such flirting is within the boundaries of her relationship. | * [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=1938 32:18] After stating her contentions with Open relationships Lav describes her "discord husband" whom she constantly sexually harasses. She goes on to say such flirting is within the boundaries of her relationship. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=2104 35:00] Lav says she's worried about how Brittany utilizes her platform, and states she may lead women to "being alone at 30" with the lifestyle she advocates for. She also describes Brittany as thinking of herself as the most enlightened person in the world, and thinks she may have Bipolar Disorder. She goes on to say that Brittany might be running a sex cult. Destiny takes issue with these accusations and is forced to defend Brittany. | * [https://youtu.be/5zH6yO_16lM?t=2104 35:00] Lav says she's worried about how Brittany utilizes her platform, and states she may lead women to "being alone at 30" with the lifestyle she advocates for. She also describes Brittany as thinking of herself as the most enlightened person in the world, and thinks she may have Bipolar Disorder. She goes on to say that Brittany might be running a sex cult. Destiny takes issue with these accusations and is forced to defend Brittany. | ||
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|} | |} | ||
=== | === Dan discusses a leaked recording of Lav trash talking Destiny === | ||
On August 12, 2022, | On August 12, 2022, Dan shed some light on a leaked recording involving Lav.<ref>Dan Sheds Light on LEAKED RECORDING of Lavlune TRASHING Destiny! (Private S*X Info Leaked?). (August 13, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLK6Z4iRqL4</ref> <ref>THE E-GIRL EXORCISM - SHOCKING LAVLUNE REVELATIONS. (August 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 10, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egyuwjqEXNw </ref> This conversation occurred on [[ChudLogic]]'s channel, and lasted around sixteen minutes. The conversation begins with a content creator in Chud's community, Kuihman, alleging that Lav lied about an individual stalking, calling the FBI on her, and posting a photo of her house on a private server. This all occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. | ||
Dan, Chud, and Kuihman go on to listen to a leaked call wherein Lav stated that Destiny wanted to suck her husband's cock, and that she would never sleep with him. In the call, Lav calls Destiny a "cheese-boy", elf, and troll-man. Dan says there are two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer. | |||
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| | | | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=56 0:56] Chud discusses why he is still on twitch. | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=56 0:56] Chud discusses why he is still on twitch. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=337 5:38] Chud and | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=337 5:38] Chud and Dan begin discussing Lav. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=406 6:43] The creator of the video, Kuihman, alleges that Lav lied about a case where an individual was stalking her, and calling the FBI on her. Kuihman goes on to describe how the only thing that substantiated Lav's claim was her calling the FBI on this individual, and the individual posting a photo of her house on a private server. He qualifies that all this occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=406 6:43] The creator of the video, Kuihman, alleges that Lav lied about a case where an individual was stalking her, and calling the FBI on her. Kuihman goes on to describe how the only thing that substantiated Lav's claim was her calling the FBI on this individual, and the individual posting a photo of her house on a private server. He qualifies that all this occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=535 8:55] Kuihman describes how Lav got into a voice call after a conversation with Destiny and stated that he wanted to suck her husband's cock, and she would never sleep with Destiny. | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=535 8:55] Kuihman describes how Lav got into a voice call after a conversation with Destiny and stated that he wanted to suck her husband's cock, and she would never sleep with Destiny. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=690 11:30] Chudlogic plays the leaked call. | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=690 11:30] Chudlogic plays the leaked call. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=840 14:00] | * [https://youtu.be/HLK6Z4iRqL4?t=840 14:00] Dan describes two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer. | ||
|} | |} | ||
=== Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel === | === Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel === | ||
[[File:LavDogwarts.png|200px|thumb|right|Lav's dog of choice for [[Dogwarts]]]] | [[File:LavDogwarts.png|200px|thumb|right|Lav's dog of choice for [[Dogwarts]]]] | ||
On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the | On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the conversation for half an hour before he got bored.<ref>Lavlune BACKSTABS Destiny, LIES About STALKER & Gets ATTACKED By Obsessed 4Channer. (August 15, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4bsurH_FC4</ref><ref>2022-08-14|P1 Destiny was rude to F&F producer; talk w/ Aba about Fresh & Fit, Sneako. (August 19, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWCDIoM-Ppc</ref> During the call Lav confronts Kuihman over some alleged discord harassment campaigns he and his friends had organized against her. | ||
Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs(her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd. | Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs(her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd. | ||
=== Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips === | === Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips === | ||
[[File:LavDebate6KaiClips.png|300px|thumb|right|From left to right: Destiny, KaiClips, and Lav debating pornography.]] | [[File:LavDebate6KaiClips.png|300px|thumb|right|From left to right: Destiny, KaiClips, and Lav debating pornography.]] | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__4ePS5Gck|300px|right| ''' Talk w/ Lav about sex work, Lav’s beliefs; KaiClips and Lav debate pornography. Video now deleted'''}} | |||
On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server. <ref>2022-09-11|P2 Talk w/ Lav about sex work, Lav’s beliefs; KaiClips and Lav debate pornography. (September 12, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3iIvcBoZ3g</REF> | On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server. <ref>2022-09-11|P2 Talk w/ Lav about sex work, Lav’s beliefs; KaiClips and Lav debate pornography. (September 12, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3iIvcBoZ3g</REF> | ||
During the discussion, Lav expresses her mixed feelings towards radical-feminism, explaining that she disagrees with several of its tenets while agreeing with some. She goes on to confess her lack of concern for transwomen's feelings, specifically mentioning she doesn't care if they don't want to be referred to as male. She also criticizes transwomen for discussing feminist issues related to female socialization. Destiny took issue with Lav's rhetoric, warning against taking more "provocative" positions that may lead to social media backlash and a toxic community. | |||
On feminism, Lav identifies her main issue with radical-feminism being its perceived masculinization of women. She labels herself as a cultural feminist, explaining that she aims for a society that emphasizes women's inherent qualities. Destiny argues that Lav's views might stem from a previously "unexamined life", making her vulnerable to new and abstract concepts. He points to her relationship with her appearance and her previous OnlyFans involvement to illustrate his point. | |||
On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav | On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav responds by suggesting casual sex should be restricted to friends, arguing it is the "greatest display of physical intimacy that you can have with somebody". Regarding sex-work, she criticizes the harmful content in porn(i.e. rape-play/bdsm) and its accessibility to children. Finally, Lav believes women can't give informed consent in the current scope of sex work, but she'd accept it in a perfectly equal society. | ||
Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue. | Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue. | ||
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=== Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny === | === Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny === | ||
On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist.<ref>Destiny Actually Convinces Her To Concede A Trans Debate. (October 5, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH8iFzeEMa8</ref> | On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist.<ref>Destiny Actually Convinces Her To Concede A Trans Debate. (October 5, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH8iFzeEMa8</ref> By the end of the conversation, Lav remained skeptical of the existence of nonbinary individuals but was open to considering the existence of a "gendered-experience". | ||
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=== Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry === | === Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry === | ||
On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav and | On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav, Zherka, and [[Chaeiry]].<ref>Destiny Gets Triggered Into A Debate w/ Lav And Zherka ft. Chaeiry. (October 15, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 16, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myPGy1WNvx8</ref> | ||
The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. | The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon, and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. Lav goes on to explain that because Chaeiry was reviewing her vods so obsessively, she was forced to private them. Later, she shares that her experience in MrGirl's community made her strongly against sex work, and expresses her concern about the backlash from changing her stance. Destiny tells her that it's okay to change views occasionally, but advises her to avoid making strong statements throughout the process. Lav takes issue with this accusation, and the two debate for some time. Zherka eventually joins the conversation, starting a debate about the femininity of men and what women genuinely seek in men. | ||
Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a [[Jesse_Lee_Peterson|Jesse Lee Peterson]] quote). Chaeiry's primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals. | Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call later that day to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a [[Jesse_Lee_Peterson|Jesse Lee Peterson]] quote). Chaeiry's goes on to assert that her primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals, before she eventually leaves the call. | ||
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=== Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry === | === Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry === | ||
[[File:MrgirlPantsDrama.png|200px|thumb|Right|MrGirl adjusting his pants mid-conversation with Chaeiry]] | [[File:MrgirlPantsDrama.png|200px|thumb|Right|MrGirl adjusting his pants mid-conversation with Chaeiry]] | ||
On October 16, 2022, Destiny and a panel of orbiters held a discussion on drama involving [[Chaeiry]] and Mrgirl, as well as a "nuke" Lav wanted to drop on [[Hasan_Piker| Hasan]].<ref>Destiny Finally SNAPS, Almost Bans Entire Panel Addressing MrGirl False Allegations. (October 18, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 16, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-irtug0-WYE</ref> Chaeiry, thinking MrGirl had intentionally lifted his shirt to flash his stomach/lower body(and pubes), tweeted out a #metoo style tweet alongside [[Stardust]] with regards to the incident. Seeing the backlash she received following her accusations, Chaiery decided to speak with Destiny in hopes of receiving clarification as to where she messed up. After some discussion(and further questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that assuming any maliciousness from MrGirl during this incident would be unreasonable. | |||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/-irtug0-WYE|300px|right| '''Destiny Finally SNAPS, Almost Bans Entire Panel Addressing MrGirl False Allegations. '''}} | |||
Later on, Dan joins the call followed by Lav, [[Aba]], and Zherka. Lav brags about "being right" with regards to Chaeiry's character, mentioning her toxicity and alleged mental illness, and proceeds to defend MrGirl. Destiny takes issue with the harshness of Lav's criticisms, and the two discuss for some time. Throughout the conversation, Lav derides Chaiery's character, insults her, and accuses her of betraying MrGirl's friendship and trust. The conversation goes on for around twenty minutes before the panel decides to discuss sex work with Lav. Noticing a lull in the topics, [[Ahrelevant]] joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy, and her heavy-handedness during debates. This conversation quickly gets derailed as Darius enters the call to shout at Lav. | |||
Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. Eventually Chaeiry agrees that MrGirl's lower back, and not his butt was shown. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. | The conversation becomes even more personal when Aba expresses his disdaine for Lav, calling her a version of Sneako with less charisma. He goes on to point to Lav's ability to take strong moral stances on topics she has no prior knowledge on, Lav takes issue with this and the two(along with Ahrel) discuss for some time. Shortly after this conversation, Lav alludes to a "nuke" on Hasan. Destiny stops her from dropping the nuke, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. Eventually Chaeiry joins the call to confront Lav, and the two argue for some time. MrGirl enters the call shortly after Chaeiry, and recreates the pose that was clipped and started the initial drama. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible(no pubes to be seen). | ||
Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. Eventually, Chaeiry agrees that MrGirl's lower back, and not his butt, was shown. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. Eventually, the conversation shifts focus back to Lav(after she accuses Chaiery of lying) and Destiny is forced to explain to her what a lie is. While in the middle of defining what a lie is, Lav interrupts Destiny, to which Destiny responds by calling Lav a "dumb bitch". Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. Destiny snaps once more, saying this whole situation is a nothing burger that nobody will remember. Destiny further argues that the only one who deserves to be angry is MrGirl, who should probably be going much harder on Chaeiry as a result of her actions. MrGirl eventually leaves, and the panel members then turn their attention to Lav and criticize her for treating Chaiery poorly during the discussion. Lav and Chaiery continue to argue whether Chaiery lied, and in the end, Lav angrily exits the call. | |||
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=== Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams AKA Destiny takes off the "kids gloves" and yells at Lav === | === Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams AKA Destiny takes off the "kids gloves" and yells at Lav === | ||
On October 23, 2022, Destiny watches several clip of Lav speaking about him on other streams. <ref>Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS. (October 25, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y6DDtjM3cY</ref> | {{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/-y6DDtjM3cY|300px|right| '''Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS. '''}} | ||
* She states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive | On October 23, 2022, Destiny watches several clip of Lav speaking about him on other streams. <ref>Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS. (October 25, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y6DDtjM3cY</ref> During the clips, Lav makes the following statements which Destiny took issue with: | ||
* She agrees with MrGirl's claim that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him. Destiny again, expresses his frustration with watching a | * She states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive, especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people. | ||
* She maintains that Chaeiry and Stardust were purposely malicious in their attempted cancellation of MrGirl, and accuses Destiny of not coming to MrGirl's aid. Destiny responds that the overwhelming majority of online spaces were coming out against Chaiery and Stardust, and found it unnecessary to add on to the criticism they were receiving as a result of the accusation. | * She agrees with MrGirl's claim that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him. Destiny again, expresses his frustration with watching a young individual, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationship. | ||
* She maintains that Chaeiry and Stardust were purposely malicious in their attempted cancellation of MrGirl, and accuses Destiny of not coming to MrGirl's aid. Destiny responds that the overwhelming majority of online spaces were coming out against Chaiery and Stardust, and he found it unnecessary to add on to the criticism they were receiving as a result of the accusation. | |||
Eventually, Lav joins the stream to confront Destiny. Lav claims she never "talked shit" about Destiny on other streams, and accuses Destiny of "emboldening" his community against her and breeding misogyny. She also maintains that Destiny's audience has many [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers groypers] in it harassing her. Destiny responds that he polices against misogyny heavily in his community, and points out that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms. He clarifies that this is is likely where the harassment she receives is coming from. The two debate | Eventually, Lav joins the stream to confront Destiny. Lav claims she never "talked shit" about Destiny on other streams, and accuses Destiny of "emboldening" his community against her and breeding misogyny. She also maintains that Destiny's audience has many [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers groypers] in it harassing her. Destiny responds that he polices against misogyny heavily in his community, and points out that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms. He clarifies that this is is likely where the harassment she receives is coming from. The two debate the perceived Misogyny in Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit), Lav's characterization of Destiny on other streams, and Lav's behavior in debates. | ||
Throughout their conversation, Destiny attempts to make clear to Lav that her on-stream issues do not stem from her unfamiliarity with debate spheres. Instead they stem from her habit of belittling other people who hold differing views from her, and then changing her mind on these views the next day. Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic | Throughout their conversation, Destiny attempts to make clear to Lav that her on-stream issues do not stem from her unfamiliarity with debate spheres. Instead, he explains they stem from her habit of belittling other people who hold differing views from her, and then changing her mind on these views the next day. Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic, and when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. The conversation gets quite emotional with Lav even sobbing through her arguments at one point. Lav eventually apologizes, says she was wrong, and that she does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists. | ||
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=== Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other for several hours === | === Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other for several hours === | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/dLn43h5JzNA|300px|right| '''Destiny Orbiter Civil War PRELUDE. '''}} | |||
On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream.<ref>Destiny Orbiter Civil War | PRELUDE. (October 26, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLn43h5JzNA</ref><ref>Destiny. (2022). Aba CONFRONTS Destiny, Triggers MELTDOWN 13 Person Debate | CIVIL WAR. In YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX7Y8O4FbzI</ref> The "prelude" to the civil war, involved Brittany and Destiny discussing the "real-world" impact of streamers, and the potentiality for certain orbiters(i.e MrGirl and Lav) to betray Destiny. | On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream.<ref>Destiny Orbiter Civil War | PRELUDE. (October 26, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLn43h5JzNA</ref><ref>Destiny. (2022). Aba CONFRONTS Destiny, Triggers MELTDOWN 13 Person Debate | CIVIL WAR. In YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX7Y8O4FbzI</ref> The "prelude" to the civil war, involved Brittany and Destiny discussing the "real-world" impact of streamers, and the potentiality for certain orbiters(i.e MrGirl and Lav) to betray Destiny. | ||
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|} | |} | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/cX7Y8O4FbzI|300px|right| ''' Aba CONFRONTS Destiny, Triggers MELTDOWN 13 Person Debate | CIVIL WAR. '''}} | |||
Aba eventually joins the call, and the Orbiter Civil War officially kicks off. The primary contention starts between Aba and Lav. Aba claimed most discussions with Lav are pointless, as she will always fall back on being "young and naive" whenever she's proven wrong in a discussion. Destiny tries to moderate the discussion between the two, as he sees no issue in Lav's ignorance as long as she eventually admits fault. Each orbiter(outside of Brittany), seemingly had a "problem": | Aba eventually joins the call, and the Orbiter Civil War officially kicks off. The primary contention starts between Aba and Lav. Aba claimed most discussions with Lav are pointless, as she will always fall back on being "young and naive" whenever she's proven wrong in a discussion. Destiny tries to moderate the discussion between the two, as he sees no issue in Lav's ignorance as long as she eventually admits fault. Each orbiter(outside of Brittany), seemingly had a "problem": | ||
* Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer. | * Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer. | ||
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* Lav has a problem with Destiny's community attitude towards her, nobody taking her seriously, and a general animosity toward Chaiery. | * Lav has a problem with Destiny's community attitude towards her, nobody taking her seriously, and a general animosity toward Chaiery. | ||
* MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit and it's moderation). He feels the subreddit is part of a system of discrediting other orbiters, and making them look bad. | * MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit and it's moderation). He feels the subreddit is part of a system of discrediting other orbiters, and making them look bad. | ||
* Stardust has issues with her | * Stardust has issues with the deterioration of her friendship with MrGirl as a result of her attempt to cancel him. | ||
Destiny first addresses the issues with Lav. Lav accuses Destiny of tarnishing her reputation by labeling her as being young and naive, which leads the subreddit to echo this sentiment. Destiny responds, asserting that his intention is not to discredit her but to provide an explanation for the seemingly contradictory and highly irrational nature of some of her statements. He clarifies his stance on Lav’s behavior, describing it as manipulative, and | Destiny first addresses the issues with Lav. Lav accuses Destiny of tarnishing her reputation by labeling her as being young and naive, which leads the subreddit to echo this sentiment. Destiny responds, asserting that his intention is not to discredit her but to provide an explanation for the seemingly contradictory and highly irrational nature of some of her statements. He clarifies his stance on Lav’s behavior, describing it as manipulative/"gaslighty", and that she tends to feign ignorance on topics in order to escape accountability for her charged rhetoric | ||
Destiny's contentions with MrGirl arise in the form of a debate on community responsibility. MrGirl and Lav argue that Destiny shouldn't call out the mistakes of smaller content creators on his stream | Destiny's contentions with MrGirl arise in the form of a debate on community responsibility. MrGirl and Lav argue that Destiny shouldn't call out the mistakes of smaller content creators on his stream, as it might turn his audience against them. For instance, MrGirl thinks Lav should have the freedom to call anyone a "dumb bitch" on stream, but believes Destiny shouldn't, because his audience would deride the "dumb bitch" in question. Destiny counters that he would never allow anyone to get away with poor behavior on his stream, regardless of their size. Chaiery, Pxie, and Brittany take Destiny's side, and argue that MrGirl and Lav are attempting to absolve themselves from all responsibility for their actions by blaming Destiny for the community's behavior towards them. Lav does not speak much throughout this portion of the conversation, and only chimes in to echo whatever sentiment MrGirl conveys. | ||
As the discussion progresses, the group eventually discusses the relative meanness of Destiny and MrGirl. Destiny confesses that his own words are often "meaner," but he also points to the significant impact of MrGirl's way of framing certain issues to fit his own narrative. He compares his own insult towards Lav, calling her a dumb bitch, to MrGirl’s statement that Chaiery is "incapable of having a conversation." Feeling attacked in this conversation, MrGirl labels the other orbiters in the call "white blood cells" because they rally to counteract his points against Destiny. Throughout this portion of the conversation, several orbiters in the call point out that MrGirl arguments make it seem like he wishes to avoid all responsibility for his actions on stream by wishing to never be called out on any poor behavior. Near the end of this conversation, Lav decides to bring up REDACTED as an example of abused orbiters. Lav goes on to claim that REDACTED was a normal women that was tormented and demonized by Destiny's community. Destiny takes issue with this and the two discuss for some time until the call ends. | |||
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=== Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream === | === Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream === | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/l1qqxb_v1GE|300px|right| '''I Asked My Therapist About Destiny. '''}} | |||
On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.<ref>I Asked My Therapist About Destiny. (October 29, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1qqxb_v1GE</ref>. Throughout the video, Lav maintains a somber demeanor and tone while clutching her knees to her chest in the fetal position. She addresses her problems with Destiny criticizing her on-stream behavior, and | On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.<ref>I Asked My Therapist About Destiny. (October 29, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1qqxb_v1GE</ref>. Throughout the video, Lav maintains a somber demeanor and tone while clutching her knees to her chest in the fetal position. She addresses her problems with Destiny criticizing her on-stream behavior, and shares her distress about Destiny labeling her as an abuser in front of "several thousand people". As the video plays, Destiny attempts to tackle any arguments he perceives to be dubious in the VOD, and responds to questions from the chat about Lav's behavior. Destiny's major criticism of Lav is that she tends to make her "feelings" into statements of fact, and tends to leverage her emotional state to win arguments(hence the abuse accusations towards Lav). | ||
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! colspan="2" | Reaction Highlights | ! colspan="2" | Reaction Highlights | ||
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=== Lav discusses misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring Aba and Sneako === | === Lav discusses misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring Aba and Sneako === | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/rB2fkZMTvxE|300px|right| '''Sneako And Aba CLASH On Debate Panel Over DJ Akademiks Fresh N Fit Drama.'''}} | |||
On October 28, 2022, Lav discussed Misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring many orbiters including Aba, Sneako, [[Counterpoints]], and [[Rem]].<ref>Sneako And Aba CLASH On Debate Panel Over DJ Akademiks Fresh N Fit Drama. (October 30, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 1, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB2fkZMTvxE</ref> The video begins with Lav apologizing for bringing up REDACTED in a previous conversation, and Destiny responding that he doesn't give a fuck. Soon after, Aba takes the chance to confront Lav about her habit of speaking impulsively. In return, Lav accuses Aba of being a misogynist, leading to a prolonged debate between members of the panel over Lav's behavior and her tendency to speak without thinking. Throughout the conversation, Sneako routinely asks Lav what she's wearing and requests she turn her camera on. Meanwhile, Rem shit stirs with Dan's assistance, Erudite earnestly tries to guide Lav to a more reasonable stance, and Destiny struggles | On October 28, 2022, Lav discussed Misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring many orbiters including Aba, Sneako, [[Counterpoints]], and [[Rem]].<ref>Sneako And Aba CLASH On Debate Panel Over DJ Akademiks Fresh N Fit Drama. (October 30, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 1, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB2fkZMTvxE</ref> The video begins with Lav apologizing for bringing up REDACTED in a previous conversation, and Destiny responding that he doesn't give a fuck. Soon after, Aba takes the chance to confront Lav about her habit of speaking impulsively. In return, Lav accuses Aba of being a misogynist, leading to a prolonged debate between members of the panel over Lav's behavior and her tendency to speak without thinking. Throughout the conversation, Sneako routinely asks Lav what she's wearing, and requests she turn her camera on. Meanwhile, Rem shit stirs with Dan's assistance, Erudite earnestly tries to guide Lav to a more reasonable stance, and Destiny struggles to moderate the panel's aggression and seemingly overt misogyny. Counterpoints works to uncover the valid points in Lav's "bullshit," even preparing a document to support his case, while Aba consistently criticizes Lav, likening her to a youthful, naive, and irritating version of Sneako in a wig, and labels her a detrimental figure for women in the midst of the anti-misogyny discourse. | ||
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=== Destiny and Dan recap MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav's Future === | === Destiny and Dan recap MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav's Future === | ||
On November 1, 2022 Dan and Destiny had a conversation recapping MrGirl's bridge burning and Lav's future as an orbiter.<ref>Destiny and Dan RECAP MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav’s Future. (November 1, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 3, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rkDh3_N3E</ref> The two anticipate MrGirl to make a comeback after his pattern of temporary internet departures, similar to a tactic which Dan dubs as the "REM maneuver." | On November 1, 2022 Dan and Destiny had a conversation recapping MrGirl's bridge burning, and Lav's future as an orbiter.<ref>Destiny and Dan RECAP MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav’s Future. (November 1, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 3, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rkDh3_N3E</ref> The two anticipate MrGirl to make a comeback after his pattern of temporary internet departures, similar to a tactic which Dan dubs as the "REM maneuver." Dan points out that despite the complications with MrGirl, Lav consistently returns from breaks with more strength, although her departures are brief and somewhat performative. The conversation continues, and there is a debate over whether Max will abandon his principles in order to make a return to the internet/Destiny's orbit. Dan asserts that Max's inflexible methodology and extreme bridge-burning are problematic, and further argues that Max possesses a "rigid-unadapting self-perception". Destiny suggests that Max will likely create a rationale to justify his return to the internet, potentially with some changes to his approach, unlike Lav, who has more leeway to evolve due to her less absolute commitments. | ||
=== Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into an Impromptu Debate featuring Lav === | === Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into an Impromptu Debate featuring Lav === | ||
On November 4, 2022 Aba, Brittany Simon, Dan, Politically Provoked's Brittany, Lav, and several other orbiters engaged in an impromptu debate on sex work, OnlyFans, and Relationships.<ref> “DO NOT Make It Personal” - Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into Impromptu Debate. (November 6, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rAynLV9qKI</ref> The video begins with a debate between Politically Provoked Brittany and several other | {{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/_rAynLV9qKI|300px|right| '''“DO NOT Make It Personal” - Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into Impromptu Debate.'''}} | ||
On November 4, 2022 Aba, Brittany Simon, Dan, Politically Provoked's Brittany, Lav, and several other orbiters engaged in an impromptu debate on sex work, OnlyFans, and Relationships.<ref> “DO NOT Make It Personal” - Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into Impromptu Debate. (November 6, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rAynLV9qKI</ref> The video begins with a debate between Politically Provoked Brittany and several other orbiters(including Lav) debating the feasibility of OnlyFans workers like Lav taking public stances against misogyny. The conversation then shifts to an argument over whether or not an individual can ever have "healthy" conversations with an OnlyFans content creator. Destiny maintains it's possible for a healthy discussion to be had, but it's impossible to know from an outside perspective. Chaiery, Brittany Simon and other orbiters take issue with Destiny's perspective and the panel discusses for some time. This conversation eventually evolves into a discussion of individuals becoming lonelier in society, and having fewer friends, Destiny and Aba agree this is likely a result of the internet/technology while Brittany disagrees this is the primary cause. At some point during this conversation, Lav states that Destiny convinced her to close her relationship, as a result of viewing how he engages in open relationships. This results in a personal debate between Lav and Destiny over whose life is more "niche" or unmaintable for the average person. Lav argues that the way Destiny manages her open relationship is a "niche", while Destiny counters that a partner being okay with someone who posts nudes on OnlyFans and Twitter is also an oddity. | |||
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=== Destiny discusses Lex Fridman and Lav === | === Destiny discusses Lex Fridman and Lav === | ||
On November 5, 2022 Destiny discussed Lex Fridman and Lav during viewer call-ins. At around twenty-two minutes, Destiny brings up that Lex is fascinated by Lav, and thinks she has a [https://youtu.be/GzgF4hWILRs?t=1373 "really beautiful mind"].<ref>Destiny SchizVember Call-ins (R*pe Review, Cheating, Lex Fridman and Lav). (November 5, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 8, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgF4hWILRs</ref> Destiny found this very amusing as Lex even shared this sentiment with [[Melina]](who was not very fond of Lav at the time). | |||
On November 5, 2022 Destiny discussed Lex Fridman and Lav during viewer call-ins. | |||
=== Lav and Melina fire shots at one another on their streams === | === Lav and Melina fire shots at one another on their streams === | ||
[[File:LavMelinaFeud .png|300px|thumb|Right|Logs of Melina mocking Lav for her behavior(read from bottom to top).]] | [[File:LavMelinaFeud .png|300px|thumb|Right|Logs of Melina mocking Lav for her behavior(read from bottom to top).]] | ||
On October 28, 2022 Melina, Destiny's wife, discussed her frustrations with watching Lav and several other orbiters interactions with Destiny on stream.<ref> Melina Vents about Lav Lune Drama and Parasocial Destiny Orbiters. (October 28, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 13, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMgyXtSydo </ref> Melina | On October 28, 2022 Melina, Destiny's then wife, discussed her frustrations with watching Lav and several other orbiters interactions with Destiny on stream.<ref> Melina Vents about Lav Lune Drama and Parasocial Destiny Orbiters. (October 28, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 13, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMgyXtSydo </ref> Melina expresses her frustration with ongoing drama involving Lav, and draws parallels to manipulative behaviors she recognizes from her sister. She expresses discomfort with how some of Stephen's friends and acquaintances(i.e. Brittany) who lack a deep understanding of him, overly analyze and discuss his personal life and relationships. She goes on to say that such behavior is "creepy" and quite "parasocial", particularly when they attempt to analyze Destiny's behavior(i.e. saying "Oh Steven actually thinks this..."). Melina also shares concerns about the "worthlessness" of online interactions and friendships, especially those revolving around her partner. She explains that Destiny and herself have a strong physical and emotional connection, while those online tend to be shallow and obsessive. Throughout the video, Melina expresses her disdain for the manipulative and victim-playing tactics that she has regularly experienced in online communities, and expresses her desire for more "meaningful" interactions that can't typically be found online. | ||
On November 6, 2022 Lav reacted to a video | On November 6, 2022 Lav reacted to a video showcasing all of Melina's criticisms of her on stream. <ref>LavLune Fires Back at Destiny’s Wife Melina. (November 6, 2022). Www.youtube.com. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfP2u7qydBI </ref> On her stream, Lav accuses Melina of being immature and "very weird". Lav took particular issue with Melina's criticism of her "being babied her entire life for being pretty", to which Lav describes her own hardships, including family neglect and substance addiction. She goes on to claim that Melina is unfairly making assumptions about her life, much like she accused Lav of doing with Destiny. The video progresses, and Lav questions Melina's claims about Destiny treating her like a child, asserting that Melina is misconstruing Destiny's charitability and nice behavior. In response to Melina's "psychoanalysis" accusations, Lav argues that Melina is performing a psychoanalysis herself, and points out that Destiny's highly public life, as he streams every day, makes such analysis warranted. Lav further elaborates that both Brittany and herself have personal relationships with Destiny, granting them the right to discuss him. She then accuses Melina of avoiding mentioning Destiny on her stream, claiming that Melina receives more donations when she refrains from doing so. Lav concedes that she does not know Destiny as well as an ex-girlfriend would(as Melina claimed), but caveats that they know him enough through their interactions on stream to warrant discussion on his behavior. Lav concludes her stream by sharing her personal views on open relationships, and her interactions with Steven. | ||
=== Lav joins a debate panel featuring Low Tier God and JiDion === | === Lav joins a debate panel featuring Low Tier God and JiDion === | ||
[[File:LavBlav.png| | {{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/slcuGeh99W4|300px|right| '''JiDion And Low Tier God Squash Beef In The Middle of A Debate Panel.'''}} | ||
On November 6, 2022 Lav took part in a panel discussing anti-Semitism and black issues, featuring JiDion, Low Tier God, Aba, Counterpoints, Pxie, and Darius.<ref>JiDion And Low Tier God Squash Beef In The Middle of A Debate Panel. (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 14, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slcuGeh99W4</ref> The panel opens with a debate | [[File:LavBlav.png|100px|thumb|right|A depiction of Lav posted on r/destiny following the debate.]] | ||
On November 6, 2022 Lav took part in a panel discussing anti-Semitism and black issues, featuring JiDion, Low Tier God, Aba, Counterpoints, Pxie, and Darius.<ref>JiDion And Low Tier God Squash Beef In The Middle of A Debate Panel. (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 14, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slcuGeh99W4</ref> The panel opens with a debate regarding the importance of voting in presidential elections. JiDion, Aba, and Low Tier God argue that voting in these elections is unimportant and further state that they view former President Obama's tenure as ineffective. Several of the other panelists took issue with this view, pointing to the significance of voting and the impact of Obama's presidency. The conversation then narrows to a more specific focus on the black community. During which time, the panel discussed the opportunities and challenges for its improvement, and eventually touched on the problem of antisemitism in black communities. | |||
The discussion on antisemitism remained moderate, until Lav introduced the topic of increasing integration between white and black people online, a trend she perceived as problematic. She expressed concerns about black communities adopting antisemitic behaviors similar to those found among whites on the internet, drawing a parallel to Nazi Germany. Lav further elaborated on how she sees groypers and black individuals uniting online to ridicule Jews, goes on to describe how a Jewish man is more likely to be "hate-crimed" on the street than a black man, and laments the lack of institutions protecting Jewish people as they do African Americans. This led to a discussion on recent events which resulted in several NBA stars apologizing for perceived antisemitic remarks from Kyrie Irving. Aba thought it was strange how quick they were to jump to the defense of Jewish people, Lav argued that they were just defending their friends, and JiDeon questioned the reasoning for asking someone like Shaq or LeBron to denounce the remarks (as opposed to a Jewish NBA star). The conversation intensifies, as Lav remarks that Jewish people went through a genocide, and cites this as a reason for needing to be more critical of individuals who speak out against Jewish individuals. Aba takes issue with this claim, and argues that Jewish people need to move on from their past, similar to how African Americans needed to move on from slavery. Aba goes on to recommend that Jewish individuals like Lav should pick themselves up by their bootstraps and move on from their former oppression. At some point during the conversation Lav accuses Aba of being antisemitic for assuming she was pro-Israel just because she's Jewish. | |||
The | The conversation takes a turn for some time, as Pxie prods Low Tier God on his claim that black people need to make better decisions. They discuss "the talk" black parents give their children about police interactions and other systematic issues. Pxie appears to believe that some of Low Tier God's arguments might make him seem like a "pick-me" for Republican bootstraps talking points, and tries to argue from a "meta" perspective on systematic black issues, such as the potential for encountering a racist cop. Meanwhile, Low Tier God argues from a desire to improve the lives of other African American individuals. At one point Pxie asks Low Tier God to acknowledge that it's possible for a black person to act on their best behavior and still get "fucked over" by a racist. Lav ,feeling the need to answer for LowTierGod, assures Pxie that Low Tier God knows this. Low Tier God responds that he does not believe this, and Lav once again attempts to run defense for him by responding that Pxie is attempting to "posture over a black man". Later on, Low Tier God laments that the only way African Americans can earn money on a large scale is through entertainment. He goes on to question why wealthy African Americans would even want to risk their wealth by making antisemitic remarks, and argues that they themselves damage the community. Destiny and Low Tier God then discuss the systematic issues prevalent in black communities for some time before the call concludes. | ||
r/Destiny was not fond of Lav's performance during the debate and created many posts criticsing and poking fun at Lav. One such post, has Lav appearing in blackface.<ref>https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ynaf49/i_am_lav_and_i_am_the_voice_of_the_black_community/ </ref> | |||
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=== A debate panel featuring Lav, Aba, and Annalicia gets derailed | === A debate panel featuring Lav, Aba, and Annalicia gets derailed. Lav suggests that Tree of Logic is in the "sunken place" === | ||
On November 7, 2022, Lav participated in a panel featuring Aba, [[Annalicia]], Pxie, [[4THOT]], [[Fanatiq]], and Tree of Logic.<ref>Debate Panel Completely Derails Into HEATED Personal Insults ft. Aba. (November 7, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 22, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHY0V2QQeKY </ref> The panel members primarily discussed issues involving challenges in the black community, including fatherlessness, racial dynamics, and the impact of economic factors on family structures. | {{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY|300px|right| '''Debate Panel Completely Derails Into HEATED Personal Insults ft. Aba.'''}} | ||
[[File:LavBlav2.png|200px|thumb|Right| A depiction of Lav in the "sunken place" posted on r/destiny following the debate.<ref>https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ynxciz/blav_in_the_sunken_place/</ref>]] | |||
On November 7, 2022, Lav participated in a panel featuring Aba, [[Annalicia]], Pxie, [[4THOT]], [[Fanatiq]], and Tree of Logic.<ref>Debate Panel Completely Derails Into HEATED Personal Insults ft. Aba. (November 7, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 22, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHY0V2QQeKY </ref> The panel members primarily discussed issues involving challenges in the black community, including fatherlessness, racial dynamics, and the impact of economic factors on family structures. Throughout the conversation, personal attacks and accusations of racism were frequently levied by both sides of the panel. Annalicia and Lav were of the opinion that black men made poor fathers, and that black men were more or less detrimental to the success of black women. The two frequently backed each others viewpoints as they debated against several of the aforementioned orbiters. Frequently throughout the panel, Annalicia would be asked a pointed question regarding her position, Lav would chime in before Annalicia could speak, and a panel member would tell Lav to let Annalicia speak. The panel eventually devolved into a shouting match between several black members of the panel, as Annalicia vehemently defended her points against Fanatiq, Tree, and Anti (a black phd student). | |||
During the panel, Lav cited incarceration statistics of black men and crime rates as reasons for them being poor fathers. She also recommended that Straighterade should trust and listen to Anna's experience as a black woman. This led 4THOT to introduce a black female therapist, Alice Jay, who took issue with Lav's views on absent black fathers, arguing the absenteeism was not as frequent as Lav claimed. Lav dismissed Alice's perspective, claiming she only saw privileged clients. Alice counters, pointing to her work in an underserved area, and mentioned many of her patients are on Medicaid. Despite this, Lav insisted that these individuals are still privileged and niche. Lav proceeds to share her upbringing in Englewood, California, surrounded by black people, and noted that none of them recognized mental illnesses in their children, and would likely never have taken them to a therapist such as Alice. Straighterade then points to the irony of Lav speaking condescendingly to a black woman, shortly after affirming the authority of black women on this subject. | |||
At some point, Tree of Logic joins the stream. She begrudgingly agrees with an opinion given by Fanatic, that black women have all the agency with regards to "who makes the babies". This results in a debate between Annalicia(backed by Lav), Tree of Logic, and the other members of the panel. The debate unfortunately gets heavily mired by Annalicia's refusal to define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, which results in the two becoming incredibly heated early on in their discussion. Annalicia eventually does define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, describing them as these individuals that are going to school, getting educated, coming from good socioeconomic standings, yet are still leaving single mothers behind with other races(i.e. Asian, Hispanic, white). When pushed, Annalicia elaborates that 70% of black men fall under this category. Tree takes issue with this, and accuses Annalicia of not providing enough agency to black women with regards to partner selection. While Tree is giving her response, Lav stops her to inform Tree that her and Annalicia want the same thing: for black women to live more empowered lives. Annalicia disagrees with this characterization, and at one point calls Tree remedial(a more pc version of the word "retarded"). Lav would then pause the two mid-conversation a second time to ask a question, to which Tree requests that Lav shut the fuck up. Lav then attempted to interrupt the conversation one more time to get the panel members to watch a video breaking down interracial marriages, but is shot down repeatedly. In an attempt to defend Annalicia, Lav accuses the other panel members of being unfair in their critiques and overly hostile to Annalicia. She would go on to suggest that Tree is in [https://libguides.library.cpp.edu/getout/sunkenplace#:~:text=Peele%20uses%20the%20symbolism%20of,for%20the%20history%20of%20slavery.| "the sunken place"] and accuses Tree of letting a man "lead" her. | |||
Much like her previous appearance with JiDeon and Low Tier God, Lav was met with much criticism on r/Destiny as a result of her debate performance. Once again some posts depicted Lav in black face, while others took a more tempered approach to their critiques of Lav.<ref> https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/yp84vl/lav_needs_to_not_be_involved_in_discussions_about/ </ref> | |||
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*[https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1126 18:46] While Straighterade and Annalicia are attempting to hash out their disagreement regarding the statistics of black fathers, Lav decides to chime in and ask provide a few statistics regarding black children(to Destiny's chagrin as Straighterade has already addressed the data point she's citing). | *[https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1126 18:46] While Straighterade and Annalicia are attempting to hash out their disagreement regarding the statistics of black fathers, Lav decides to chime in and ask provide a few statistics regarding black children(to Destiny's chagrin as Straighterade has already addressed the data point she's citing). | ||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1169 19:29] Lav goes into detail regarding black men incarceration rates, have super high crime rates, and questions what they are doing all day. She goes on to state that they are likely not taking their children to school every day.Straighterade points out the difference between "being unmarried" and "being absent" and how this invalidates Lav's position. Lav then recommends that Straighterade shutup and listen to Annalicia. | * [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1169 19:29] Lav goes into detail regarding black men incarceration rates, have super high crime rates, and questions what they are doing all day. She goes on to state that they are likely not taking their children to school every day.Straighterade points out the difference between "being unmarried" and "being absent" and how this invalidates Lav's position. Lav then recommends that Straighterade shutup and listen to Annalicia. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1219 21:10] A black female therapist, Alice Jay joins the call and pushes back against Lav's position. She points out that black men(who are not absent) are involved with their children. Lav handwaves this as Alice seeing privileged clients. Alice cuts Lav off and informs her that she actually works in an underserved area. | * [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1219 21:10] A black female therapist, Alice Jay joins the call and pushes back against Lav's position. She points out that black men(who are not absent) are involved with their children. Lav handwaves this as Alice seeing privileged clients. Alice cuts Lav off and informs her that she actually works in an underserved area. She goes on to describe how many of her patients are on Medicaid(government provided healthcare for low-income individuals). Lav maintains that these people are still privileged. | ||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1354 22:34] Lav describes how she grew up in Englewood around only black people, and provided the anecdote that none of the black individuals she met were able to recognize that their children had any form of mental illness(she described this as a staple of the black community). Straighterade then points out the irony in Lav talking down to a black women, minutes after saying black women have authority on this particular subject. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1388 23:08] Lav attempts to backtrack and claims she was not speaking on the black experience. Other members on the panel call her out for this and point out that she in fact was. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1500 25:00] Alice and Annalicia debate for some time. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1658 27:38] Destiny clears the air, and points out that Ana's argument is the types of families that would even think to take their children to these counselors, is probably going to select for the best of black families. Alice then counters that these families are at the "end of their rope" and because there is a behavioral problem with the child(either she helps them or they end up in a foster home). | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1833 30:33] Pxie steps in to debat Annalicia. She asks Annalicia what her "end goal" or solution is. Destiny steps in once again to steelman Annalicia's argument. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=1951 32:31] Lav accuses Straighterade of calling Annalicia a racist. Straighterade denies this, but Alice accepts that, and elaborates why she thinks so. Annalicia later concedes that there is not a biological component to the perceived deficiencies in black men. Lav accuses everyone on the panel of being bad faith for assuming that Annalicia would even maintain such a position, to which Destiny counters that even he had such an impression of her. Annalicia is outraged at the other panel members as a result of this. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2097 34:57] Aba joins the panel. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2130 35:30] Alice and Destiny ask Annalicia what she thinks the reason black men are "failing" is. Citing a study, Annalicia replies that black mentorship and cultural revitalisation is needed. Destiny counters that this is a issue that could be said for many other races, to which Annalicia replies that the issues are primarily culture, mentality, (Lav chimes in that it's the patriarchy), and some historical implications. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2222 37:02] Annalicia argues that there are some inherent deficiencies in black men, but maintains these deficiencies are not biological and can be changed. She later details that black women face a double standard with the criticism they receive relative to black men. She maintains that the criticisms levied on black women are individualistic while the criticisms towards black men are systematic in nature. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2446 40:46] Lav describes her interpretation of Annalicia's arguments, Destiny tries to cut her off as she is not acknowledging some of the harmful prescriptions prevalent, but Lav continues to monologue(destiny is visibly upset by this). | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2808 46:48] After a noticeably heated one-sided exchange with Annalicia, Aba requests that she dial down the intensity. Annalicia responds that she is on her period, and Lav states that she is too. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=2998 49:58] Annalicia asserts that being with black men has been detrimental to black women. Destiny counters that Annalicia could phrase her argument less inflamatoraily by stating black women could just choose better partners as opposed to not choosing black ones. Lav quickly rebukes that Destiny is doing the "steve harvey thing", and Destiny tells Lav to shut the fuck up so Annalicia can respond. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=3096 51:36] Lav responds that she hears Annalica's argument perfectly, Destiny chides that this hurts Annalicia's position. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=3194 53:14] Annalicia describes why she believes black women have low self esteem. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=3480 58:00] Destiny reminds Lav that they are both white, and that the black members on the panel probably have no trouble showing empathy for one another. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=3690 1:01:30] Destiny details the plight of black men, describing systematic and societal issues they face. He goes on to describe how some "good black men" get in the crossfire of some of Annalica's arguments. Annalicia handwaves this as "mansplaining", and replies that not enough good black men exist. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=4336 1:12:16] Annalicia describes her issues with black men becoming partners with women of other races. Destiny acknowledges the issue, and points to the proclivity of black men to date women from other races. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5085 1:24:45] Tree of Logic joins the stream. She begrudgingly agrees with a take given by Fanatic, that women have all the agency with regards to "who makes the babies". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5273 1:27:53] Tree asks Annalicia what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" is. The two argue for some time, Tree is surprisingly calm while Annalicia is quite heated. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5494 1:31:34] Annalicia becomes noticeably more angry as Tree presses her to define who "pookie" and "ray-ray" are. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5546 1:32:26] Annalicia defines what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are. She states that pookie and ray-ray are going to school, getting educated, coming from good socioeconomic standings, yet are still leaving single mothers behind with all races(i.e. Asian, Hispanic, white). When pushed, Annalicia elaborates that 70% of black men fall under this category. Tree takes issue with this, and accuses Annalicia of not providing enough agency to black women with regards to partner selection. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5711 1:35:11] Lav requests permission to ask a question, Destiny shoots her down, but Tree allows her to ask anyways. Lav informs Tree that her and Annalicia want the same thing, for black women to live more empowered lives. Annalicia and Tree disagree with this acterization. Annalicia at one point calls Tree of Logic "remedial"(a somewhat PC version of the word retarded), and states it is very difficult for a black women to be able to "vet" partners. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=5938 1:38:58] Annalicia laments black women historically never being in a position to "ask for too much" with regards to their partners. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6006 1:40:06] Tree states she has never complained about an ex-relationship all her life, Annalicia takes issue with this and attempts to interrupt her several times. Annalicia handwaves Tree's arguments as useless personal anecdotes, and argues that her experiences are the exception not the rule. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6206 1:43:26] Lav states she has another question, and Tree tells her to shut the fuck up. The debate then gets even more heated. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6426 1:47:06] Annalicia details the struggles of black women. First she critiques Trees argument that black people simply need to go to church to find guidance by pointing out that black people(specifically black women not black men) go to church more than any other minority group. She then refers to the fact that black men are more disgusted by single motherhood. She concludes that black men are not interested at all in being mentors. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6584 1:49:44] 4THOT enters the call. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6633 1:50:33] Annalicia suggests if these black men are not mentoring these "fucking fatherless delinquent children" then they should not be having them. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=6886 1:54:46] Annalicia, likely unaware of Tree's statue, suggests that she "not go there" with her, to which Tree responds "the fuck you gonna do?" and laughs bombastically. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7135 1:58:55] Annalicia and Fanatiq debate for some time. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7209 2:00:09] Destiny quotes a statistic stating Black men are more likely to intermarry than black women. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7351 2:02:31] Destiny shouts at Fanatiq, informs him that for once he's not the black person on a panel he's yelling at, and requests that Annalicia avoid from using "little rhetorical tricks". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7458 2:04:18] Annalicia states white women are the standard for all beauty in women, Tree disagrees. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7620 2:07:00] Annalicia asks what percentage of white women are getting assjobs. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7684 2:08:04] Lav attempts to get the panel to watch a video breaking down interracial marriages while Annalicia is putting forth a point regarding black/white beauty standards. Annalicia is not happy with this, and Destiny is visibly amused. Destiny and fanatiq see the thumbnail of the video, and decide they'd be better off just having a conversation instead of watching it. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7875 2:11:15] After several interruptions, Fanatiq informs Annalicia she has two minutes to finish her point. Annalicia retorts that Fanatiq cannot tell her what she has. Lav jumps in and states she needs to play her video for the panel. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=7959 2:12:39] Fanatiq repeatedly shouts the phrase "as I remember." | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=8122 2:15:22] Anti, a black male with a PHD, joins the panel. He contends that black men are not achieving the same education rates as women due to higher incarceration rates. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=8384 2:19:44] Annalicia sarcastically states that black men are victims, and concludes they are incapable of not commiting crime, and raising children. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=8773 2:26:13] The panel completely derails as the black members on the panel talk over each other. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=8961 2:29:21] Annalicia and Fanatiq shout at each other. He repeatedly shouts the phrase "the Rally". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=9303 2:35: 03] Annalicia requests that Destiny whitesplain for her. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=9583 2:39:43] Aba yells at the panel for being overly combative. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=11349 3:09:09] The debate panel competently derails. Destiny suggests he could unmute one panel member at a time to get their points out uninterrupted. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=11614 3:13:34] Annalicia temporarily rage quits the panel. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=11792 3:16:32] Tree and Lav debate for some time regarding how fairly Annalicia was treated. She suggests that the other panel member were overly hostile to her. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=12434 3:27:14] Annalicia rejoins the panel and burns the bridge with Destiny. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/CHY0V2QQeKY?t=12865 3:34:25] Lav informs Tree that she can remain in the sunken place if she wishes to continue being led by men. | |||
|} | |||
=== Destiny reacts to a clip of Lav on Chudlogic's stream === | |||
{{#ev:youtube|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M46CiExHMaE|300px|right| '''Lavlune CONFRONTED and EXPOSED for Absurd Clout Sharking and Flip-Flopping.'''}} | |||
On November 7, 2022, Lav appeared on a stream with Chudlogic to discuss her recent showings on Destiny's stream and her recent behavior since joining the "pol" community.<ref> Lavlune CONFRONTED and EXPOSED for Absurd Clout Sharking and Flip-Flopping. (November 8, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M46CiExHMaE </ref> | |||
Destiny responded to a clip from this panel on November 9, 2022. <ref> Destiny Responds to ChudLogic & Lav Lune Claims. (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF3Ln1qasFc </ref> In the clip, Lav states that Destiny's community is overrun with misogynistic douchebags. Fellow panelist Wickedsupreme tries to counter this accusation, but Lav intensifies her criticism, labeling even the moderators in DGG as incels.Upon hearing this, Destiny jokingly proposes creating a training course for potential stream participants to understand true internet hostility.He elaborates that if an individual is feeling "broken" as a result of their interactions with DGG, they are simply not cut out for the online space in general. He jokingly suggests that one of the lessons in the orbiter training camp, would be people simultaneously hacking the orbiter's twitter account, while calling them racial slurs, making death threats, and creating a subreddit dedicated to hating the individual and their entire existence(all things which have happened to Destiny). He then compares this to DGG, who might make mean subreddit posts about individuals, and occasionally show up in twitter replies/mentions. Destiny points to a recent video he watched involving Lav and Mrgirl, in which Lav was "literally crying" because she was banned from r/Destiny. Destiny mockingly compares this to a dick-pic of his which was embedded in the CSS of a subreddit for several months. | |||
Later on in the video Destiny is told: "Apparently she read a text of you telling her good job for her appearance, but not good enough because you didn't' defend her against melina." Destiny responds that he does not wish to stand between Lav and Melina, and that he doesn't care for their disagreements with one another. Destiny then reads the exact message he sent "Good job you contributed well tonight, you're a tenacious one i'll give you that." Destiny proceeds to read a complaint from Lav regarding critcisiams she received from [[RightToBearArmsLOL]], to which Destiny responded RTBA is "his own proud bear, talk to him". Destiny encourages Lav to publicly reveal their private messages if she ever feels he's being duplicitous, underscoring his disapproval of being portrayed as two-faced. | |||
=== Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together === | |||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g|300px|right| '''Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together.'''}} | |||
[[File:LavRtbaDms.png|400px|thumb|Right|Direct messages between RightToBearArmsLOL and Lav wherein RTBA defends against an antisemitism accusation levied towards Aba.]] | |||
On November 9, 2022 Destiny reacted to a MrGirl stream titled "Misogyny with Lav". <ref> Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together. (November 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 31, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jliRjf10v3g </ref> MrGirl and Lav begin their conversation by discussing Lav's involvement in sex-work, where MrGirl suggests that she integrates misogyny into her profession. Their discussion then shifts to the presumedly severe critique they face from r/destiny. During the discussion, Lav reveals that she has implored Destiny to be mindful of her feelings regarding the subreddit's criticism. She argues that misogyny is a widespread issue affecting all women, noting that attractive women, like herself(especially those in the upper echelons of attractiveness in which she believes herself to be a part of), often face more severe scrutiny. Lav mentions that 70% of the criticism directed at her from the subreddit bring up how attractive she is, and informs MrGirl that she's "killing herself" trying to internalize all the criticism she receives. The climax of the stream occurs when MrGirl strongly advises Lav to distance herself from Destiny's orbit, explaining that he left it himself as an example for her, after which both begin sobbing. | |||
The discussion continues, and Lav discusses her grievances with Destiny's moderation team, initially focusing on her conflicts with 4THOT and her subsequent ban from the subreddit. She then discusses an interaction with [[RightToBearArmsLOL]], who, according to her, messaged her concerning her accusation of antisemitism directed at Aba. She alleges that RightToBearArmsLOL warned her about a potential ban if she "weaponizes her Jewishness against Aba again." When Destiny reviews these messages, he comments that their content doesn't seem as serious as Lav had portrayed. Destiny proceeds to outline the "abuser-tactic" MrGirl utilizes to convince Lav. | |||
"If you're trying to convince somebody to do something, that they're kind of half in on, that you kind of want them to do... usually when people are trying to seal the deal... the goal of most people is to push them all the way to be fully on board with this(aka full commitment to an action), that's what you want to push them towards. But if you wanna be really manipulative, the real goal is to have them emotionally roped in enough so that you have them right here(bordering on acceptance of committing an action), and then as soon as you know you've got them, you pull back completely, and then you go hands-off, and then you let them argue the rest of the way so they feel like they're the ones who are moving themselves this way(fully bought in). It lets you remove full responsibility from the decision later."-Destiny outlining how MrGirl convinced Lav [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3172 52:52] | |||
[[File:LavMrgirlCryingOutline.png|300px|thumb|left|Destiny outlining how MrGirl convinced Lav into leaving his orbit. The left line is "acceptance of a given action" and the right line is "being fully bought into a given action".]] | |||
As Destiny resumes the video, MrGirl alleges that Destiny banned him from r/destiny due to concerns that he might influence his community against Destiny. MrGirl asserts that Destiny is on precarious grounds, fearful of losing everything. He further speculates that Destiny relies on a constant influx of orbiters for his followers to dogpile on. Lav then asks for MrGirl to refrain from talking about Destiny's life any further, for fear that they will be "torn to shreds" if they do. She claims to want to leave Destiny's community, but wants to also look "strong". MrGirl replies that the narrative after he left Destiny's orbit was that he tried to take over the subreddit and failed, so he left but is desperate for DGG's approval so he'll likely return at any moment. In the ongoing discussion, MrGirl expresses his sadness over the numerous "pro-Aba" posts on the subreddit, and asserts that the community is bound to eventually tear him down, and that no orbiter is safe. MrGirl claims that the only way to enable Lav to come back on Destiny's stream with no boundaries, is for him to suck up all of the anger from the community, so she doesn't have to. | |||
Lav goes on to share her grievances regarding Destiny's behavior, contrasting his on-stream demeanor with his off-stream actions. She expresses frustration about how Destiny often praises her intelligence and how great she is on stream , yet she feels mistreated by him during live streams. As an example, Lav cites a situation where Destiny messaged her about her excellent performance on stream, but then allowed Melina to criticize her on her own stream. | |||
As the stream concludes, Destiny claims Lav contradicts herself a lot, is internally incoherent, is inconsistent with her own beliefs, and in the process of changing constantly internally. Destiny qualifies that Lav is still very smart, however he can understand why people would perceive her to be "stupid", following seeing her exhibit the aforementioned negative qualities. Destiny then points to how people will routinely faulter in debates against Lav by failing to bring "receipts" to back their arguments. | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Reaction Highlights | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=61 1:01] Destiny tunes into MrGirl's stream with Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=145 2:25] MrGirl informs Lav she's the first "porn-creator" he's encountered that has misogyny be part of her job. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=279 4:39] MrGirl tells Lav he's not trying to judge her, and feels like she used him to self-harm in the past. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=472 7:52] MrGirl says he doesn't think he should propose streams with Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=524 8:44] Pxie joins Destiny's stream. She discusses DGG's reaction to aggressive-male orbiters vs aggressive-female orbiters. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1134 18:54] MrGirl jokingly agrees that he's contributed to misogyny that has been directed at Lav for months now(with reference to "shut up lav" sound bites). | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1196 19:56] MrGirl brings up Destiny's subreddit. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1231 20:31] Lav claims she begs for Destiny to consider her feelings with regards to the criticism she receives on the subreddit. Lav elaborates, she believes that misogyny is levied against all women, and there's a special place for it against attractive women. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1364 22:44] Lav claims that 70% of the criticism directed at her from the subreddit, bring up how attractive she is. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1555 25:45] MrGirl claims that Lav made her leave Destiny's orbit after a conversation the two had with one another. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1690 28:10] Lav claims she's "killing herself" 'trying to internalize all the criticism she receives, and change. She goes on to state that the viewers become her mother in a sense. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=1902 31:42] MrGirl retorts that "Lav's mother" tearing her down is not a genuine criticism of her, and that such criticism is invalid regardless how it's framed. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=2337 38:57] MrGirl claims he's the "ph-test" for trust, and if someone doesn't trust him they likely don't trust anyone. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=2426 40:26] MrGirl tells Lav he left Destiny's orbit to set an example for her, the two then cry together. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=2337 46:20] Lav discusses her subreddit ban and her issues with 4THOT. She then claims [[RightToBearArmsLOL]] messaged her regarding her accusation of antisemitism towards Aba, and threatens to ban her if she should "weaponize her jewishness towards aba again". Upon viewing the messages, Upon viewing the messages, Destiny remarks they do not appear to be as severe as Lav claims they are. * [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=2968 49:38] Destiny asserts his mods may take action without his permission, but not without his guidance. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3093 51:33] MrGirl begins crying, he tells Lav she does not have to leave Destiny's orbit. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3172 52:52] Destiny outlines the "abuser-tactic" MrGirl utilizes to convince Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3442 57:22] Destiny resumes the video, MrGirl and Lav share a very emotional pause. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3534 58:54] MrGirl says he hates Aba, and assumed Lav hated aba as well. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3805 1:03:25] MrGirl claims that Destiny banned him from r/destiny for fear of him turning his own community against him. He continues, and states that Destiny is on thin ice, and is in fear that everything may be taken away from him. MrGirl then outlines that Destiny needs a perpetual supply of orbiters for his community to dogpile on. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=3999 1:06:39] Lav then asks for MrGirl to refrain from talking about Destiny any further, for fear that they will be "torn to shreds" if they do. She claims to want to leave Destiny's community, but wants to also look "strong". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4099 1:08:19] MrGirl claims the narrative after he left, was that he tried to take over the subreddit, and failed, so he left but is desperate for their approval and attention so he'll probably be back any moment. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4224 1:10:24] MrGirl then outlines his "systematic-view" of what is occurring on Destiny's stream, and elaborates on why he refers to orbiters as "white blood cells". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4312 1:11:52] MrGirl claims the be saddened by all the "pro-aba" posts on the subreddit, and states that the community will inevitably tear him down. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4421 1:13:41] Another "emotional-pause" occurs between MrGirl and Lav, Destiny discscuses factorio optimization. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4473 1:14:33] MrGirl claims that the one way to enable Lav to come back on Destiny's stream, is for him to suck up all of the anger, so she doesn't have to. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4629 1:17:09] Lav laments being called a "villain" by Destiny. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4726 1:18:46] Lav then provides the example of Destiny messaging how great she was on stream, and then proceeding to "let" Melina criticize her on her own stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=4905 1:21:45] Lav says she wants to talk about Destiny, but doesn't think she should. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=5003 1:23:23] MrGirl asserts he will not come back to the orbit unless "things change". He proceeds to claim he does not like streaming. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=5673 1:34:33] MrGirl claims to want to start his own audience, distanced from DGG. Lav says she wants the same. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=5746 1:35:46] Destiny claims Lav contradicts herself a lot, is internally incoherent, is inconsistent with her own beliefs, and she's in the process of changing constantly. Destiny qualifies that Lav is still very smart, however he can understand why people would perceive her to be "stupid" seeing her exhibit the aforementioned negative qualities. Destiny then points to how people will go to debate Lav, she will constantly do 1v4 debates, where people will fail against her as they did not bring "receipts" to back their arguments. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/jliRjf10v3g?t=5908 1:38:28] Responding to MrGirl's comment about being addicted to highs and lows, Destiny argues that some initially ambiguous statements become incredibly insightful upon expansion. Conversely, he notes that other statements may seem insightful but lack true depth. | |||
|} | |||
=== Destiny addresses Lav and MrGirl's allegations. Issues a content ban on both === | |||
{{#ev:youtube|https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE|300px|right| '''Destiny Addresses Lav’s Allegations And Exposes MrGirl. '''}} | |||
On November 10, 2022, Destiny responded to several allegations from Lav, and exposed a [https://mrgirl.substack.com/p/the-destiny-report manifesto] she had been working on with MrGirl behind the scenes. <ref> Destiny Addresses Lav’s Allegations And Exposes MrGirl. (November 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLNmDQOdYE </ref> This stream occured following a call in which Lav debated several DGGers regarding REDACTED. | |||
==== Destiny discusses what MrGirl and Lav have been doing behind the scenes, details his relationship with the two ==== | |||
At the beginning of the stream, Destiny recounts the events from the past few months up to the present and laments the current situation he finds himself in. He explains that his online interactions with most people have a minimal impact on his emotions, noting that only three people could significantly affect him in this way. However, following a recent tumultuous interpersonal drama, Destiny decided to initiate offline engagements with these individuals to foster more "human" interactions. The two people that Destiny decided to attempt these offline engagement with were MrGirl and Lav. Destiny comments that Lav, REDACTED, and Shaelin are not really at fault, describing MrGirl as a narcissistic manipulator who abuses everyone around him. He refers to MrGirl's interactions with Lav on his stream, noting the change in Lav's behavior. Destiny also mentions hearing Shaelin's comments on Chudlogic's streams and the messages he received from REDACTED. From these observations, he deduces that MrGirl has been emotionally abusing, manipulating, and gaslighting these individuals, in order to influence their feelings to suit his desires. Later on in the stream, Destiny describes how he started to receive direct messages from individuals a few days ago. These messages informed Destiny that MrGirl had been reaching out to every single women Destiny has ever had in the background on his discord, coupled with several men trying to get lists of women that Destiny has ever spoken to. Destiny then details the "fetish" MrGirl accuses him of possessing: | |||
[[File:LavMrGirlShaelinAdoption.jpg|200px|thumb|Right|A family-portrait style depiction of MrGirl, Shaelin, and Lav.<ref>https://twitter.com/shebie_jeebies/status/1583943682117754880</ref>]] | |||
"He(MrGirl) has built up this idea that I have essentially the following fetish: I approach a women, float the idea of her being on my stream, I fuck them, then I bring her on stream and I have my entire fan base attack her because I get off on that, and then I run her out of my community. He's built this narrative after farming REDACTED for information... He's trying to find every other girl that i've spoken to, to see if he could get similar stories out of them." -Destiny | |||
Destiny goes on to explain Lav's part in this manifesto, describing how she had revealed that destiny and her had hooked-up to MrGirl. Destiny goes on to explain his annoyance with Lav accusing him of only defending certain individuals because they hooked-up, despite the fact that he had hooked-up with her. Destiny returns focus to MrGirl and lists off what he knows about MrGirl investigative efforts: | |||
* MrGirl has contacted at least 20-30 women | |||
* MrGirl has been desperately attempting to get into contact with [[Denims]] and [[KiraChats|Badbunny]] | |||
* MrGirl is mutual friends with every single girl on Destiny's friends list. Destiny hypothesizes that MrGirl is likely calling these girls and attempting to convince them that Destiny is acting improper or wrong. | |||
Destiny expresses his frustration, as MrGirl is only able to confront these individuals due to very personal/private information Destiny had provided to him(something Destiny rarely does). Destiny proceeds to accuse MrGirl of using this information to deceive others and attack him covertly. Destiny claims he was a good friend to MrGirl and Lav, but assumes they don't reciprocate these feelings due to the subreddit's negative response to their onstream appearances. He continues, asserting he possesses substantial evidence of MrGirl's behind-the-scenes actions. Destiny points to Lav's comparison of him to Harvey Weinstein, attributing it to his sexual encounters with many individuals from his community(something that corresponds with MrGirl's aforementioned "fetish" accusation"). Destiny continues, and reaffirms he has no problem with MrGirl, Lav or anybody who would like to "metoo" him leaking any direct message history if they feel he has acted improper. Destiny does however express concern that MrGirl's ability to manipulate people may result in him convincing some of the individuals to believe they were actually abused(he likens this to Chaiery and Stardust's attempts at cancelling MrGirl). Destiny then remarks that he has considered pulling the plug on MrGirl's website, but has hesitated. He later expresses his frustrations in "baby-walking" individuals like Lav and MrGirl through conversations to show them where they contradict themselves/or why viewers might "hate" them, only to be called abusive by the two in response. | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Highlights- Destiny recaps the events so far | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
*[https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=212 3:32] Destiny states he is pressed for time, which is why he could not prepare a formal write-up for this. | |||
*[https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=252 4:12] Destiny attempts to throw up a quick 900 to predict how this stream will go, and regrettably scores an 882. | |||
*[https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=299 4:59] Destiny begins by recounting the events leading up from a few months ago to today, and laments the current situation. Destiny elaborates that when he meets people online, there is very limited interaction he will have with these individuals that would meaningfully affect his emotional state(he remarks there are three people that would affect him in such a way). However, after a rather tumultuous interpersonal drama that occured, Destiny concluded that he should reach out and engage with these individuals offline in order to encourage more "human" interactions. The two people that Destiny decided to attempt these offline engagement with were MrGirl and Lav. | |||
*[https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=471 7:51] Destiny remarks that Lav, REDACTED, or Shaelin, are not truly in the wrong, and that MrGirl is a narcissistic manipulator who is abusive to every person in his orbit. He refers to MrGirl's interactions with Lav on his stream, noting the change in Lav's behavior. Destiny also mentions hearing Shaelin's comments on Chudlogic's streams and the messages he received from REDACTED. From these observations, he deduces that MrGirl has been emotionally abusing, manipulating, and gaslighting these individuals, influencing their feelings to suit his desires. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=586 9:46] Destiny puts together what he thinks MrGirl's mind looks like. He believes MrGirl is extremely narcissistic, and that he can never see himself as being incorrect. Furthermore, he states that MrGirl will put the blame of off other people for being abusive/misunderstanding if something happens and he is perceived as wrong. Destiny states that he noticed this during his conversations with MrGirl, in his inability to back off a "read" he has on a given person. Destiny also noticed this when MrGirl attempted to settle interpersonal drama, with individuals such as Lex Fridman coupled with his inability to handle criticism on twitter. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=702 11:42] Destiny describes how he started to receive direct messages from individuals a few days ago. These messages informed Destiny that MrGirl had been reaching out to every single women Destiny has ever had in the background on his discord, coupled with several men trying to get lists of women that Destiny has ever spoken to. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=734 12:14] Destiny describes the "fetish" MrGirl accuses him of possessing. "I approach a women, float the idea of her being on my stream if she fucks me, I fuck them, then I bring her on stream and I have my entire fan base attack her because I get off on that, and then I run her out of my community." He goes on to claim that MrGirl has built this narrative after farming REDACTED for information. He elaborates that MrGirl is actively attempting to find more women who have a similar story, in order to assist in forming this narrative. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=776 12:56] Destiny explains Lav's part in this manifesto, explaining how she had revealed that destiny and her had hooked-up. He goes on to explain his annoyance with Lav accusing destiny of only defending certain individuals because they hooked-up, despite the fact that he had hooked-up with her. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=815 13:35] Destiny states he is unsure how many people MrGirl has gotten into contact with so far, but that it likely exceeds 30. He also remarks that MrGirl has been desperately attempting to get into contact with Denims and Badbunny. He later points out that MrGirl is mutual friends with nearly every single female on Destiny's friends list. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=867 14:27] Destiny explains his frustrations with MrGirl's investigation. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=965 16:05] Destiny states he is unsure what flipped the switch in MrGirl's mind to cause him to create this manifesto. He goes on to remark that he has much evidence of MrGirl's work in the background. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=999 16:39] Destiny points out that Lav alluded to the fact that Destiny is Harvey Weinstein because he has sex with many people that come through his community. He later points out that he has no problem with Lav or MrGirl leaking their entire DM history. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1100 18:20] Destiny expresses concern that MrGirl's ability to manipulate people may result in him convincing some of the individuals to believe they were actually abused. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1200 20:00] Destiny remarks that he has considered pulling the plug on MrGirl's website. | |||
|} | |||
==== MrGirl joins the call ==== | |||
MrGirl joins the call, seemingly after Destiny describes the situation involving MrGirl, Shaelin(MrGirl's partner), and Lav as "incredibly creepy". He accuses Destiny of sexting consistently with REDACTED for a year and lying about REDACTED's alleged stalking. To which Destiny retorts the two have no problems with one another anymore, have been fine for a year, and are even friends currently. Destiny then chides MrGirl for making this the lynchpin of his manifesto. The two then debate for some time regarding Destiny's relationship with REDACTED. At one point Destiny, seemingly annoyed, mutes MrGirl so that he may elucidate on a position. MrGirl leaves shortly after. This is the last direct conversation the two have had. | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Highlights- MrGirl joins the call | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1336 22:16] MrGirl joins, seemingly after Destiny states Shaelin is a victim of MrGirl. He accuses Destiny of "sexting consistently with REDACTED for a year" and lying about REDACTED's alleged stalking. To which Destiny replied the two have no problems with one another, and have been fine for a year. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1392 23:12] MrGirl asserts that the last time he and Destiny spoke, Destiny alleged that REDACTED locked him in the basement of their mind. Destiny counters that this was the case over a year ago, when REDACTED spent two year nonstop talking about him. He once again emphasizes, that the two are fine currently. Destiny goes on to mock MrGirl for seemingly making his manifesto hinge on his relationship with REDACTED. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1576 26:16] A seemingly annoyed Destiny, mutes MrGirl so that he may elaborate on his position. MrGirl leaves shortly after. | |||
|} | |||
==== Destiny addresses Lav's allegations ==== | |||
Shortly after MrGirl leaves, Destiny diverts more attention towards Lav. One of Lav's primary allegations towards Destiny, was likening him to Harvey Weinstein. He comments that Lav and MrGirl share the same views about his alleged 'fetish' and his behavior as a manipulative abuser. He goes on to remark that Lav has been obsessed with MrGirl for months, and will agree with whatever he says. Destiny believes Lav was easily manipulated by MrGirl through the following tactic: | |||
"If you apply enough pressure to somebody, when you let up off that pressure, it's always gonna feel good... This is like the classic good-cop, bad-cop played by one person... you(MrGirl) do this in every conversation you do, you always try to get someone to the edge of crying, and then once they're crying, you ease up on all the pressure, you have a nice moment of silence so they can reflect and process their emotions, and then you reenage in a more calm manner afterwards... you're almost having sex with them mentally, and now they trust you a little more." - Destiny [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=6797 1:53:17] | |||
At one point Lav accuses Destiny(from her stream), of being a hypocrite when calling MrGirl a narcissist. Destiny retorts that Lav has little people experience, does not know what the word means, and is a very easy person to manipulate. He qualifies that he does not blame Lav for succumbing to MrGirl's tactics, but is still hurt as he confided in Lav much personally. Destiny admits he would've waited longer to address MrGirl's pending manifesto, however Lav "going crazy on stream" prompted him to take action sooner. Destiny considers barring all low-viewer streamers from appearing on his platform. He admits that he expected Lav to handle some of the criticism better, given her significant online presence before their meeting. Destiny eventually concludes he will be doing a content ban on both MrGirl and Lav. | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Highlights- Lav's allegations | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1815 30:15] Destiny states Lav has been obsessed with MrGirl for months, and will agree with whatever he says. Lav accuses Destiny(from her stream), of being a hypocrite when calling MrGirl a narcissist. Destiny retorts that Lav has little people experience, does not know what the word means, and is very easy to manipulate. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1884 31:24] Destiny calls MrGirl a "literal rapist". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=1965 32:45] Destiny references a clip in which MrGirl claims to have left Destiny's orbit for Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=2035 33:55] [[Ninou]] joins the call, followed shortly by Melina. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=2463 41:04] Destiny points that there are some clips were Lav compares him to Harvey Weinstein. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=2655 44:15] Destiny admits he would've waited longer to address MrGirl's pending manifesto, however Lav "going crazy on stream" prompted him to take action sooner. He then jokes that Lav fucked things up for MrGirl. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=3277 54:37] Destiny reacts to a clip of Lav accusing Destiny of being a Harvey Weinstein. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=3360 56:00] Linusred joins the stream, to discuss Destiny's consideration of barring smaller streamers from appearing on his own stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=4135 1:08:55] Pxie joins the stream, and remarks that not all contentious orbiters(like herself), go crazy from the criticism they receive. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=4226 1:10:26] Lycan joins the stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=4446 1:14:06] Mindwaves joins the stream, and offers input on judging Lav and MrGirl's reactions to criticism. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=4813 1:20:13] Destiny questions how much responsibility he should ascribe to Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=5297 1:28:17] Destiny considers blacklisting MrGirl and Lav, and later concludes that he will be doing a content ban on the duo. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=5884 1:38:04] Destiny states he's irritated by Lav's accusation that he treated Chaiery differently than her, because the two had hooked up. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=6537 1:48:57] Destiny points to a stream in which MrGirl was begging Lav to leave Destiny's community, and when she finally considers doing so, he backs off stating "you don't have to". Destiny laters identifies this as a common gaslighting tactic MrGirl utilizes. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=7233 2:00:33] Kelly Jean joins the stream, and argues that the issue with MrGril and lav did not lie in their viewer count, but more likely their underlying mental health issues. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=7656 2:07:36] Counterpoints joins the stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/GNLNmDQOdYE?t=7777 2:09:37] Melina joins, and asks Destiny what he's learned from this experience. He replies that all orbiters should be kept at a distance, and should not be trusted, even her. | |||
|} | |} | ||
=== Lav | === Destiny Confronts Lav, several months following the release of MrGirl's manifesto === | ||
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | {{#ev:youtube|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90thbmSNMo|300px|right| '''Destiny FINALLY Confronts Lav'''}} | ||
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= | On March 5, 2023, Lav spoke for the first time about her previous relationship with Destiny since the release of MrGirl's manifesto in November.<ref>Destiny Confronts Lav Lune, Insane Lies Uncovered. (March 5, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 8, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWhF0jLTsro</ref> The video begins with Lav claiming to Stardust that REDACTED and Destiny talked about "sneaking away into rooms to fuck each other" at TwitchCon. Stardust counters, stating that REDACTED didn't even attend the event. Lav clarifies that she is merely repeating messages sent to her and MrGirl. Lav goes on to suggest that Destiny's desire to drive with herself to TwitchCon, coupled with their sexual history, likely meant he wanted to have sex with her as well. Zonia then tells Lav that Destiny had reviewed logs on his stream that day, wherein he briefly mentioned his sexual relationship with Lav, and noted their sexual-encounters ended before her appearances on his stream. She also points out that TwitchCon happened well after Lav started appearing on Destiny's stream. | ||
Destiny eventually joins the call, seemingly eager to understand why his private sexual details are being discussed on stream. He attempts to ask Lav a question, before being interrupted by her requesting they have at least "thirty seconds of small-talk". The small-talk eventually concludes, and Destiny asks a "random-timeline" question: "When you started to come on, and there was the huge 10-15,000 streams, i'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months as that point, is that true or false?" Lav responds that they did not, but the fact that Destiny offered to "hang-out" at TwitchCon implied the "door was not closed", and that she's "not presenting anything" when she states this. Destiny then argues that Lav seems to portray herself as entering his stream's "combat-zone", becoming emotionally distressed in private due to its traumatic nature, while simultaneously suggesting that he was sexting her during this period. Destiny clarifies that the "crazy-combat stuff" on his stream has a two month buffer between when the time when they had any type of a sexual relationship. Destiny reiterates that Lav claims they had an active sexual relationship while she was being "traumatized" by his stream, and that this was not occuring, to which Lav denies ever making this claim and says she retracts such a statement if she ever made it. Destiny moves on to the next claim, and asserts that he never told Lav she had to perform some sexual act to get on his stream. | |||
At one point, Destiny directly confronts Lav regarding the "MrGirl allegations" and chides her for being MrGirl's star-witness. Lav claims that she merely provided MrGirl with some logs, and then accuses Destiny of being a "weaselly little worm" for deleting them. Destiny asserts that the reason he deleted those logs was to protect the other individuals involved, and that no possible log-leak could hurt him, but would damage the other individuals involved. Destiny continues, stating he would never confirm or deny a sexual relationship, for fear of harming the other individuals involved. Destiny goes on to address Lav's claims of him being the "Harvey Weinstein" of Twitch(aka utilizing sexual coercion with female orbiters), to which the main thrust of her argument is that she once sent Destiny a scantily clad photo and Destiny replied "welcome to the orbiters club". Destiny laughs this off, and mocks Lav for thinking this was her "entry into his stream". Destiny then accuses Lav of looking at the most publicly facing sexual relationships Destiny has had, and trying to condemn all of his relationships by that standard, he goes on to accuse Lav of being a habitual liar. | |||
Lav accuses Destiny of talking shit about her for several months, and that she has remained silent. Destiny replies that he only brings MrGirl and Lav up when they bring him up, he then accuses Lav of sexually abusing him by leaking the details of their hookups with an individual whom she knows hates him. Destiny claims to have never spoken about any of the times Lav has talked shit about her fiance , Connor, publicly. Lav shrieks in response, and states that if Destiny wishes to have this conversation, he can never bring up her fiance again. Destiny responds that he will continue to do so, if she insists on shit talking his partner. Destiny continues, and claims Lav's entire online existence is dedicated to threatening to out him as the Harvey Weinstein of twitch. Lav denies this, to which Destiny reiterates that she is the star witness on the article, and that she is the individual who dragged REDACTED to MrGirl as another star witness. The conversation continues, and Destiny claims to have explictily messaged Lav in private to see if she's okay, and she allegedly responded in the affirmative. Lav claims she never thought Destiny was coercive or abusive, and that was MrGirl's perspective. Destiny then pointedly asks Lav what he has done to wrong her, to which Lav responds she can discuss that with Destiny in private. Destiny then claims that they have had this discussion in private, but Lav was already working with a guy at the time who was trying to wright a sexual-assault piece on him. Lav eventually confesses that she felt uncomfortable in their open-ended sexual relationship, and felt like Destiny was letting people(like Aba) shit on her. Destiny then asks Lav how she would respond in a hypothetical scenario where a conversation Lav was interested in discussing was occuring on stream, she wanted to join, and Destiny responded that she could not join because they hooked up, he claims Lav would not respond well. Lav then states she would respond kindly in such a scenario, to which Destiny accuses Lav of lying, and reiterates he in still unsure what he did wrong by her. | |||
The conversation continues, and Lav emphasies that she was a smaller content creator that Destiny should have protected. Destiny counters that Lav routinely bragged about being a larger content creator than him. He then questions why Lav would continuously invite the harassment, and brag about being a "villain". Lav claims that this was merely a cope to deal with public outcry, and claims that her suicidal feelings were not attributed to being on Destiny's stream but her use of benzos. Destiny points to a clip of Lav asserting that the worst times in her life was when she was drafted into a cult at 16, followed by November when she was on his stream(during which she never claimed to be medicated). When pressed, she claims she didn't want to bring it up for fear of Destiny's community using it as an excuse to torment her. Lav then claims to have watched Destiny ban emotes in his chatroom, and cites this as a reason that he should do some "cleanup" around her. Destiny responds, stating he did take actions, and that the criticism she received actually inspired the [[The_Anti-Misogyny_Arc| anti-misogyny arc]] within his community. As the conversation concludes, Destiny decides to draw a comparison to how he has treated Lav vs how MrGirl has. He points out the only reason MrGirl and Lav are connected is because he rebuilt that bridge after MrGirl accused Lav of being an "attention whore pedophile" and banned her from his discord. | |||
=== Lav | {| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | ||
https:// | ! colspan="2" | Debate Highlights. Editor Note: Timestamps link to a now removed video. Timestamps to be updated eventually. | ||
|- | |||
| | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=2 0:02] Lav claims that REDACTED and Destiny were talking about "sneaking away into rooms to fuck each other" while at TwitchCon. Stardust retorts that REDACTED was not even at TwitchCon, to which Lav replies she only knows what REDACTED sent to her and MrGirl. The two debate this for some time, with Stardust insisting that Destiny wanted to hang out with Lav as a "friend", while Lav insisting Destiny wished to have sex with her at TwitchCon. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=192 3:12] Destiny joins the call. He questions why his sex-life details are being discussed on stream, then attempts to ask Lav a question before she interrupts him. Lav requests they all take a breath, requests this not be a crazy conversation as this is the first time they've talked since November, and would like "thirty seconds of small-talk". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=335 5:35] The "small-talk" concludes and Destiny asks a "random-timeline" question: "When you started to come on, and there was the huge 10-15,000 streams, i'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months as that point, is that true or false?" Lav responds that they did not, but the fact that Destiny offered to "hang-out" at TwitchCon was there. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=408 6:48] Destiny states what Lav is presenting the twitchcon situation as. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=469 7:49] Destiny states that he and Lav had not done anything overtly sexual for over two months. Destiny reiterates that Lav claims they had an active sexual relationship while she was being "traumatized" by his stream, and that this was not occuring, to which Lav denies ever making this claim and says she retracts such a statement if she ever made it. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=523 8:43] Destiny asserts, that at no point in time either implicitly or explicitly, did he ever tell Lav she had to perform some sexual act to get on his stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=553 9:13] Lav claims that MrGirl and her feel differently about Destiny's attempted cancellation. Destiny retorts that Lav is MrGirl's "star-witness", and that the two are supporting one another. Lav then counters that she merely provided MrGirl with chat logs, and accuses Destiny of being a "weaselly little worm" for deleting them. Destiny asserts that the reason he deleted those logs was to protect the other individuals involved, and that no possible log-leak could hurt him, but would damage the other individuals involved. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=635 10:35] Destiny claims that at least ten different people have messaged him a list of people MrGirl has accused Destiny of having sex with. Destiny claims to not have had sex with half the people on this list. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=737 12:17] Lav claims that Kelly Jean accused Destiny of trying to sleep with her, and she said no. Destiny retorts that he did flirt with her, but never made a sexual advance. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=780 13:00] Lav states she sent Destiny a scantily clad photo and Destiny replied "welcome to the orbiters club". Destiny laughs this off, and chides Lav for thinking this was her "entry into his stream". | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=889 14:49] Destiny accuses Lav of looking at the most publicly facing sexual relationships Destiny has had, and trying to condemn all of his relationships by that standard. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=960 1600] Lav accuses Destiny of talking shit about her for several months, and that she has remained silent. Destiny replies that he only brings MrGirl and Lav up when they bring him up, he then accuses Lav of sexually abusing him by leaking the details of their hookups with an individual whom she knows hates him. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=995 16:35] Destiny claims to have never spoken about any of the times Lav has talked shit about her fiance , Connor, publicly. Lav shrieks in response, and states that if Destiny wishes to have this conversation, he can never bring up her fiance again. Destiny responds that he will continue to do so, if she insists on shit talking his partner. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1099 18:19] Destiny claims Lav's entire online existence is dedicated to threatening to out him as the Harvey Weinstein of twitch. Lav denies this, to which Destiny reiterates that she is the star witness on the article, and that she is the individual who dragged REDACTED to MrGirl as another star witness. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1249 20:49] Destiny berates Lav for attempting to leak personal hookup details regarding his relationships, and accuses Lav of attempting to play the victim in this scenario. He goes on to state that Lav has done nothing but betray his trust, and the trust of every other individual involved for nothing. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1303 21:43] Stardust attempts to chime in, but is immediately shot down by Lav who informs her that she is trying to have a conversation with Destiny. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1358 22:38] Destiny claims to have explictily messaged Lav in private to see if she's okay, and she allegedly responded in the affirmative. Lav claims she never thought Destiny was coercive or abusive, and that was MrGirl's perspective. Destiny then pointedly asks Lav what he has done to wrong her, to which Lav responds she can discuss that with Destiny in private. Destiny then claims that they have had this discussion in private, but Lav was already working with a guy at the time who was trying to wright a sexual-assault piece on him. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1431 23:51] Lav claims to have no read any portion of MrGirl's manifesto, to which Destiny points to times Lav has explicitly mentioned portions of the manifesto. Destiny then asks once more what he's done to wrong Lav. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1535 25:35] Lav states she felt uncomfortable in their open-ended sexual relationship, and felt like Destiny was letting people(like Aba) shit on her. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1683 28:03] Lav begins to discusses the "nuances" of their relationship, to which Destiny tells Lav to shut up and that there were no nuances in their relationship as Destiny was overtly explicit about every aspect. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1779 29:39] Destiny asks Lav once more what he could have done differently in their relationship. Lav responds she's not sure, and that she's not a relationship coach. Destiny then asserts that Lav has no real issues with him, and questions why she is running to an individual trying to create a sexual-assault manifesto against him. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=1922 32:02] When pressed, Lav confesses that she doesn't think Destiny has done anything truly evil, but his actions have warranted a conversation. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=2048 34:08] To Lav's point that she's a smaller content creator, and Destiny should have been more careful about criticism she received from his audience. Destiny counters that Lav routinely bragged about being a larger content creator than him. He then questions why Lav would continuously invite the harassment, and brag about being a "villain". Lav claims that this was merely a cope to deal with public outcry, and claims that her suicidal feelings were not attributed to being on Destiny's stream but her use of benzos. Destiny points to a clip of Lav asserting that the worst times in her life was when she was drafted into a cult at 16, and then November when she was on his stream. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=2285 38:05] Lav claims to have watched Destiny ban emotes, and cites this as a reason that he should do some "cleanup" around her. Destiny responds, that he did take actions, and that the criticism she received actually inspired the [[The_Anti-Misogyny_Arc| anti-misogyny arc]] within his community. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=2899 48:19] Lav claims to not know Destiny very well. Destiny finds this amusing as she seems to have so much to say about his wife, and relationships. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=3065 51:05] Destiny points out the only reason MrGirl and Lav are connected is because he rebuilt that bridge, after MrGirl accused Lav of being an attention whore pedophile and banned her from his discord. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/gWhF0jLTsro?t=3495 58:15] Destiny says his goodbyes to Lav. | |||
|} | |||
== Notable Clips, videos, logs, and | === Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip === | ||
{{#ev:youtube|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzdxVmLf01o|300px|right| '''Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip.'''}} | |||
On November 3, 2023, Destiny joined a Tomfoolery panel featuring Lav, and a leftist-influencer by the name of Catnip who recently had a negative experience debating Destiny. <ref>Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip. (November 3, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 16, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzdxVmLf01o </ref> The video opens with Lav claiming that Destiny has spent ten years in "constant-hate", and claiming that Destiny wants to "create villains" in order to divert the hatred he receives. Tomfoolery, the host of the panel, takes issue with this assertion, and is immediately met with several rebuttals from both Lav and Catnip, with the latter accusing Destiny of lying about her. Destiny eventually joins the call, and remarks that all the worst people on the internet are talking about him while he's trying to sleep. Tomfoolery then informs Destiny that Catnip had accused him of lying, and the two discuss for some time. At one point Destiny concludes that Catnip is an emotionally manipulative individual for choosing to bring up both Reckful and a former friend's suicide, to which Lav comes to her defense stating that she should cut out all negative feedback from her life if she truly knows who she is. Destiny remarks that this sounds eerily similar to something MrGirl would say, and the discussion about why Catnip is an emotionally abusive individual, and her choice to bring up two prior acquaintances suicides, continues for some time. The conversation eventually diverges into a discussion on sex-work, and Destiny leaves the call. | |||
=== Drama between Destiny, Lav, and "blondie" === | |||
[[File:LavBlondieDrama16.png|300px|thumb|right|Destiny explaining Lav's "cope".]] | |||
==== Unknown Date ==== | |||
On an unknown date In DGG orbiter [https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Jstlk jstlk's] discord server, Lav and another girl ("blondie") posted nudes in the server's "lewd-channel" in an attempt to one-up each other. At one point, Blondie posted a picture of herself with cum on her rear-end. This cum was later revealed to be Destiny's. From this point, an altercation occurs over discord wherein Destiny(aided by blondie), and Lav hurls insults at one another for some time. The drama reaches a climax when Destiny DMs Lav saying to go easy on blondie and that people actually do think Lav is prettier, Lav leaks these logs, and Blondie shows logs where her and Destiny conspired to trick Lav into doing so.<ref>[[Media:LavBlondieDrama.png]]</ref><ref>https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1asa5l9/drama_between_destiny_lav_random_hookup/kqow5fv/</ref> | |||
==== February 15, 2024 ==== | |||
On February 15, 2024 Destiny joined Lav on jstlk's stream to deliberate about the drama. During the conversation, Lav's primary contention was that Destiny's action proved her point several months ago regarding his supposed fetish of "humiliating girls on his stream after they hookup." Destiny maintains that this is not the case, and he merely enjoys seeing Lav angry. Despite the logs of what transpired being publically available, and the best attempts of both parties to persuade the other of their wrongdoings, no individual moves from their prior position. <ref> https://kick.com/video/d4c1a345-a088-4a68-84b1-ea7c3f26bb8d </ref><ref>Lav CONFRONTS Destiny (lonerbox unphased, playing chess). (Feb 18, 2024). Www.youtube.com. Retrieved February 18, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CDUdcghqE </ref> | |||
==== January 18, 2024 ==== | |||
[[File:LavBlondieDrama13.png|300px|thumb|left|Destiny shows a log of Lav "begging" him to be on her podcast.]] | |||
[[File:LavBlondieDrama14.png|300px|thumb|right|Destiny showing his entire chat history with Lav.]] | |||
On January 18, 2024 Lav and Destiny had yet another argument in jstlk's discord.<ref> [https://imgur.com/a/Idiwx7K Logs of Destiny and Lav's discord argument in jstlk's server on 1/28/2024] </ref> This argument was primarily contained within the general chatroom, and lasted from 3:06 PM EST to 4:44 PM EST. During the dispute, Destiny once again actively maintained that Lav's claim about his "getting-off" to girls in his community harassing one another was baseless. He explains that Lav just uses this as a "cope with the fact that she can't help but attack literally every single woman she comes into contact with". Destiny went on to claim that Lav has a habit of embarrassing herself(and had been doing so for years), and had to rename herself on the internet five times in the past couple of years.<ref> https://imgur.com/a/e8sYJm6 </ref> <ref> https://imgur.com/a/fvn2Nh3 </ref> | |||
Destiny then explains the "lav cycle": | |||
"Lav cycle - join community, get all of the men on your side by shipping dozens of nudes to their DMs, attack every single woman based on appearance, inevitably win fights because no one can compete with someone that hungry for attention who can spend that many hours on Discord literally every single day posting and posting and posting." - Destiny | |||
Destiny elaborates on the "Lav cycle," attributing it to her refusal to coexist with other women in any space. He describes her as the epitome of the "classic archetypical discord chatroom queen," where there's only room for one woman to be "simped over," and all other women are seen as threats. When questioned why he doesn't simply let Lav continue to embarrass herself and avoid giving her acknowledgement. Destiny responds that her way of coping with the massive amount of hate she receives is to spread lies about him, claiming he encourages women he has been intimate with to fight with each other for his own gratification. | |||
After a chatter claims Destiny "weaponized" Lav against Blondie, Destiny counters by saying he simply found the dispute amusing and encouraged it because he enjoyed watching Lav get angry. He clarifies that he finds it extremely entertaining "when super smug, over-entitled people who offer nothing get checked." He asserts that Lav's claim is yet another "massive cope" on her part to rationalize the hatred she receives after behaving aggressively or meanly towards others. Destiny then claims that Lav's "entire personality is her pussy", and that the only thing she can brag about is her looks and attack others appearance. Lav counters by stating that they had never been sexually involved, yet he continued to engage her in conversation. Destiny replies that she had been messaging him a month earlier, pleading for him to appear as a guest on her podcast. Lav denies this, claims she no longer had access to the account Destiny showed logs from anymore, and accuses Destiny of cropping the screenshots to make himself look good. Destiny then responds with more logs, showing their conversation, to which Lav requests that he post the whole chat history. Destiny then posts their entire chat history until her "account left", and wishes Lav luck. | |||
=== Destiny reacts to Lav crying for mod privileges on jstlk's discord server === | |||
<br> | |||
On February 20, 2024, Destiny reacted to a vod where Lav, in the process of attempting to earn moderation status on jstlk's server, breaks down in tears.<ref> Wake up babe, it’s research time. (February 20th, 2024). www.youtube.com. Retrieved February 22, 2024, from https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1164 </ref> | |||
In the video, Lav claims to want moderation status on the server in order to prevent the bullying she has already received, and suggests that jstlk can remove her moderation privileges at any time should he wish. She goes on to accuse jstlk of withholding moderation status from her, despite her contributions to his stream's traffic, as a way to signal to his viewers that she is "bad and unworthy" of the role. Destiny remarks that Lav is a crybully upon hearing this, and laughs when Lav suggests that having moderation powers would "make the days go easier". | |||
After jstlk holds firm in his refusal to give Lav moderation privileges, Lav breaks down in tears and Destiny jokes he has to turn off his camera in order to pleasure himself. The video progresses, and Lav accuses jstlk of being kind to her in private messages, but cold to her on stream. Destiny pauses the vod and remarks that this is the exact same criticism Lav had attempted to levy towards himself in the past, and warns jstlk to be careful. The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop". Destiny then points out Lav's "manipulation tactic": | |||
"Oh my god, how can she be this fucking stupid! If you want to be a master-manipulator women...here's what you need to do... you should be forced to live for like one year in an average women's body... or a guy's body... because men and plain women have to work hard on their manipulative tactics. But Lav's manipulation is okay... but then she just compensates with looking pretty and shipping nudes to everybody. Absent those last two things, if a guy is not desperate for her, or if she doesn't have a guy under her thumb because she's shipping them nudes, she is like nothing, and then she has an absolute meltdown... Stop being an asshole to everybody, stop being a massive cunt to everybody in chat, stop shipping your nudes to people in channels over and over again and shitting on them for their appearance... you can't be so aggressive and cry over it." - Destiny [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1680 28:00]" | |||
Destiny then states that Lav is attempting to externalize reasons for jstlk not giving her mod by implying jstlk has no autonomy, and is being pressured by outside forces(jstlk eventually states he was receiving no dms during this conversation). | |||
As the video progresses, Lav complains to jstlk about discord users posting pictures of her in an unflattering position with her dog. Destiny points out that these images were being posted after Lav accused Zoe(aka blondie) of highlighting her own dog in explicit images of herself as a form of beastilaity. Destiny eventually moves back to the timestamp in the vod where the two debate, and finds it amusing that Lav's request for moderation powers occurred shortly after this debate. | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Reaction Highlights | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
''' Lav has a bone to pick with jstlk ''' | |||
<br> | |||
[https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1189 19:49] Lav claims she has a "bone to pick" with jstlk because he initially refused to grant her moderation powers. She asserts that jstlk awarded Kelly Jean moderation status for the same reasons she seeks it and proposes that if she ever misuses the powers, jstlk can revoke them. She goes on to accuse jstlk of withholding moderation status from her, despite her contributions to his stream's traffic, as a way to signal to his viewers that she is "bad and unworthy" of the role. | |||
[https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lauren_DeLaguna Lauren De Laguna ] asks Lav why she wants mod powers, to which Lav responds she is being harassed consistently, and that these individuals would do it less if they knew she had mod powers. Destiny pauses the video and remarks that Lav is a crybully. She then states that members of the discord "spam post" explicit photos of her(photos which she had previously shared on the discord). Lauren replies that she is surprised such behavior bothers her at all, and questions why Lav would even want to hang out here if she feels harassed. Lav responds that she enjoys her time on the server, and that moderation powers would "make the days go easier". Destiny pauses the video again and laughs. | |||
Lav then points to an instance in which she messaged jstlk a chatter whom she considered to be harassing her. Jstlk responds that he likes said chatter, and that his actions(a photo of a grill) did not seem to constitute a significant enough amount of harassment to warrant a ban. | |||
<br> | |||
''' Lav begins crying ''' | |||
<br> | |||
[https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1519 25:19] After jstlk holds firm in his refusal to give Lav moderation privileges, Lav breaks down in tears and Destiny jokes he has to turn off his camera as he is receiving "intense sexual gratification from this" and needs to masturbate. After briefly exiting the call, Lav returns(still sobbing), and remarks: "it's hard for me to understand, with friendships online, what is real and what is fake. It has been really embarrassing for me to try and navigate that, because i'm usually wrong. So in dms, you(jstlk ) are usually very kind to me, and I feel like you are trying to take care of me, and then we get on stream and you are different and you are trying to virtue signal to chat, and I feel like you are trying to farm me for views..." Destiny pauses the video, laughs, and points out that Lav is trying to attack jstlk in the same fashion she did him. | |||
The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop" harassing her. Destiny pauses the video once more and discusses Lav's manipulation tactic. He states that Lav's manipulation abilities are okay, but are heavily compensated by her appearance and proclivity to send explicit images of herself to many individuals. He then points out that if these tactics fail, and if a "guy is not desperate for her", she has nothing and will proceed to have an "absolute meltdown". | |||
Lav requests for mod once more, and jstlk once again tells her no and advises her to stop "coming at different angles" for this. Jstlk goes on to accuse Lav of violating a boundary he established by requesting this conversation be had off-stream. Lav replies that it is "very hard to parse a relationship" with jstlk, to which jstlk and Wolfgand reiterate they should have this conversation off-stream. | |||
[https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=2144 35:44] Destiny explains Lav's line of thought when attempting to cope with jstlk's refusal to mod her. He accuses Lav of implying that jstlk has no agency, and is attempting to externalize reasons for him not giving her mod. | |||
<br> | |||
''' Lav vs Blondie, dog wars ''' | |||
<br> | |||
[https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1845 30:45] After Lav complains to jstlk about discord users posting pictures of her in an unflattering position with her dog, Destiny points out that these images were being posted after Lav accused Zoe(aka blondie) of highlighting her own dog in explicit images of herself as a form of beastilaity. | |||
[https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=2234 37:14] Destiny moves back to the timestamp in the vod where Lav debates Blondie. | |||
|} | |||
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" | |||
! colspan="2" | Reaction timestamps | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1164 19:21] Destiny begins reacting to jstlk's vod. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1189 19:49] Lav claims to have a "bone to pick" with jstlk. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1228 20:28] Lauren questions Lav's moderation request. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1362 22:42] Lav points to an instance in which she messaged jstlk a chatter whom she considered to be harassing her. Jstlk responds that he likes said chatter, and that his actions did not seem to constitute a significant enough amount of harassment to warrant a ban. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1519 25:19] Destiny is given a timestamp to later in the vod to where Lav begins crying. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1584 26:24] Jstlk requests that Lav have this conversation off stream with him. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1845 30:45] Destiny identifies the reason discord users were posting images of Lav with her dog. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=2058 34:18] Wolfgand chimes in, Destiny is concerned that he may begin to "simp" over Lav. Wolfgand does not, and Destiny is relieved. | |||
* [https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=2234 37:14] Destiny moves back in the vod where Lav debates Blondie. | |||
|} | |||
=== Lav blacklisted === | |||
[[File:DestinyLavBlacklist.png|400px|thumb|right|Logs of Destiny blacklisting Lav.]] | |||
On February 22, 2024, Destiny blacklisted Lav from his streams following her dissemination of allegedly false details pertaining to their brief sexual encounter and his genitalia on a twitch stream. <ref>https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T03%3A54%3A54.480Z&username=destiny </ref> Her DGG accounts were also banned. <ref> https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T04%3A03%3A12.740Z&username=destiny </ref> | |||
== Notable Clips, videos, logs, tweets, and Reddit Threads == | |||
[[File:LavSelfie1.png |200px|thumb|right|Lav]] | [[File:LavSelfie1.png |200px|thumb|right|Lav]] | ||
=== Lav debates on the Playing With Fire channel === | |||
On November 9, 2022, Lav joined [[Playing_With_Fire|Playing with Fire]](AKA Alex) to debate a wide range of contemporary social and personal issues. <ref> LavLune Debate - “You Have A Mental Disease.” (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 16, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSw_1n-FMyQ </ref> | |||
=== Destiny requests a timeline of Lav's lies === | |||
On May 4, 2023 Destiny requested a list of defamatory claims Lav had levied against his person. The top comment from reddit user 4amaroni, went into great detail:<ref>https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/137swsm/lav_timeline/</ref> | |||
<blockquote> | |||
*"Compartmentalized sexual relationship in which it was like payment for stream time" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRlMXoBFTmI&t=423s | |||
*"I think we had a completely consensual, very uh, completely consensual. I had no qualms with it, don't have a problem with it" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90thbmSNMo&t=2394s | |||
*Twitter post with several false claims of abuse: https://imgur.com/cTGY4wb | |||
*"I've never made any claims, like, that he raped me. I've always said that our relationship was completely consensual and very pleasant." - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=806 | |||
*"If Max writes an article, and it is frivolous and hyperbolic and not based in reality and completely allegory and tries to paint a picture of abuse without any substantial evidence, I will make a public statement denouncing it" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=1697 | |||
*"I never said we had an active sexual relationship in November, ever. I never made that claim" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=8072 | |||
*Screenshot of posts/chats with Lav lying about Genevieve, Pxie, Kelly Jean - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=462 | |||
*"I'm not going to talk to someone who is actively abusing, who actively abuses everyone he comes into contact with. I don't think he abuses everyone he comes into contact with, but who is actively abusing me." - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=3946 | |||
*"If I'm giving you sexual favors. If I'm sending you pictures of my feet, maybe don't call me a fucking abuser on stream because I don't like when you call me a dumb bitch" - https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx11km2xbZUM2rCQoXoSkdgD-bE2uM8m0y | |||
MrGirl Rumble stream on Feb 27th | |||
*1:23:11 "I traded this relationship for airtime" | |||
*1:26:57 "Some part of me wishes that I was still sending feet pictures" | |||
*2:24:00 "I'm just glad that you caught the things that he did. Like the 'Welcome to the Orbiter's Club thing' I can't believe that. Teaser!" | |||
*2:24:36 "I didn't know that Harvey Weinstein had rape alle- interrupted by MrGirl" | |||
*2:47:21 "I'm scared that you've convinced me that Steven is an abuser" | |||
*3:21:27 "Trades her body for airtime. She knew what she was getting into" | |||
*3:22:09 "I got it. I got the airtime" | |||
*Lav retracts Weinstein statement against Destiny: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhVoYmcWYAAFAyt?format=jpg&name=900x900 | |||
*Compilation of lies in a subreddit post on Redacted's subreddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/mrgirlreturns/comments/11jk3xl/the_thirteen_lies_of_lav_from_last_nights_stream/?ref=share&ref_source=link | |||
*Album of Lav's original Patreon post: https://imgur.com/a/8Ar0uIp | |||
*Archive of Lav's Patreon post: https://archive.ph/cn4yW | |||
Of note: | |||
"I did not open my relationship for Steven, I did not close it because of Steven. What I didn’t anticipate was becoming part of stevens orbit in the way I had. I did not knowingly consent to a scenario Of being evaluated for my performance, being told I brought views and clicks and content, and existing in the social contract I did, after having a sexual dynamic with him, and I didn’t realize how many of the women in the orbit had the same social contract I did." | |||
In case there's some want by Destiny's lawyer to see Lav has a trend of behavior throwing out false accusations, later contradicting or retracting them, and then later re-asserting them: | |||
*Lav accuses Hasan of having sex with two of her friends when they were underage: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041825963694112778/image.png | |||
*Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with a 17 year old when he was 24: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041826487067742318/image.png | |||
*Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with her friend when she was underage: https://i.imgur.com/L3Ym2Rv.png | |||
*Lav reiterates her friend was underage: https://i.imgur.com/v5g8y6D.png | |||
*Lav says she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/2SQHVeI.png | |||
*Lav reiterates she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/YmzYFeg.png | |||
*Lav denies having signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv05vLWQAU8e26?format=png&name=small | |||
*Lav reiterates she's never signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv1GtpWIAAPWSt?format=png&name=small | |||
*Lav says she only clarified the age of her friend because Hasan threatened legal action. Still insists her friend was underage: https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxBRjxJV9nARusNEzri8vCXWKW_gevcDjY https://streamable.com/w7gg6o | |||
*Lav insists she did not publicly accuse of Hasan of anything substantial. Retracts claim her friend was underage. Later says Hasan should go to jail for having paid for services from prostitutes in the past: https://obscenegaming.net/clips/TolerantBraveHerringTheThing-Fk1D3I0m7Uubiq76 | |||
*Lav retracts claims about her friend being underage. Admits she made a false allegation in ChudLogic's discord: https://streamable.com/k2h915 | |||
</blockquote> | |||
== External Links == | == External Links == | ||
*[https:// | *[https://x.com/bordeauxxheaux Twitter] | ||
*[https://substack.com/ | *[https://deeplyunpopularwoman.substack.com/ Substack] | ||
*[https://www.tiktok.com/discover/lavlune TikTok] | *[https://www.tiktok.com/discover/lavlune TikTok] | ||
*[https://www.instagram.com/lavlune/ Instagram] | *[https://www.instagram.com/lavlune/ Instagram] |
Latest revision as of 00:55, 13 August 2024
Lav | |
Lea Jane | |
Person | |
---|---|
Status | Retired[1][2] |
Political Alignment | Republican Tradwife |
Qualifications | Billie Eilish liked one of her songs[3] |
Occupation | Rage-baiter (Retired) |
Age | 26 |
Country of origin | USA |
Media | |
Website | Substack |
phemoid | |
lavlune | |
Other | |
Awards | 2022 Brainlet OTY |
Lea Jane, also known as LavLune—or more commonly Lav—is a singer, TikTok content creator, feminist and former current former soon-to-be OnlyFans content creator. She gained notoriety as one of the most contentious orbiters to appear on Destiny's stream.
Her initial on-stream discussions focused primarily on her unique perspective on sex work debates as a former OnlyFans model.[4] [5] However, her proclivity to take strong positions on certain topics, coupled with a tendency to quickly reverse her positions and apologize post-debate, plunged these discussions into controversy.[6] This behavior attracted severe criticism from much of Destiny's community, especially the subreddit members, which resulted in many "meta" discussions on how Destiny moderated his community.[7] Lav frequently accused Destiny of creating an environment that antagonized his community against her, attributing this partly to his failure to moderate criticism of orbiters and his on-stream critiques of her, which also received negative reactions from the subreddit.[8] [9][10] [11]
She was eventually found assisting former orbiter MrGirl in developing a massive manifesto, wherein Destiny was accused of fetishizing the conflict which occured on stream between individuals he had been intimate with.[12] Lav was temporarily excised from the community as a result of her assistance in the manifesto, and eventually ended her friendship with MrGirl.[13] She has changed her username many times, and currently goes by "impishlly" "phemoid".
On November 27, 2023, Destiny claimed to have somewhat mended the bridge between himself and Lav(with some stipulations regarding what they may discuss).[14] Lav was permitted to appear on panels with Destiny (i.e. Kick or Keep), but any conversations related to personal issues/grievances the two may have were not permitted.
As of February 21, 2024, Lav has been blacklisted once again as a result of her appearances on jstlk's streams and consistent toxic behavior.[15]
On stream appearances with Destiny and dramas
Destiny Moderates a debate between MrGirl and Lav
On June 12, 2022, Destiny reacted to a vod of Lav appearing on a call-in show hosted by MrGirl. During her call-in, Lav debated topics involving gaslighting, boundaries, and abuse. The initial debate primarily centered around discussing what an individual should do if they heard their partner crying in another room. Lav was of the belief that when an individual feels themselves becoming emotionally dysregulated by an action their partner has done, and thinks they may lash out on their partner as a result of said action, the individual should self-regulate by taking a walk or creating some emotional/physical distance. MrGirl felt that such actions by an individual would make their partner feel abandoned, and that one should learn to emotionally regulate without withdrawing. Lav came away from the conversation feeling emotionality/physically frustrated, and even questioned if she was abusing her husband after hearing MrGirl's position.
While watching the debate, Destiny had trouble discerning what the two were actually debating about. He also noted that MrGirl never asked Lav any clarifying questions about her position, and was fairly aggressive throughout the conversation.
Debate Highlights(Destiny reacting to a vod of MrGirl and Lav) | |
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After watching the vod, Destiny decided to invite Lav onto his stream to offer her some debate advice. Soon after, MrGirl joined the call, and Destiny moderated a debate between the two.[16] With Destiny's assistance, the two were able to clearly lay out their positions. Despite this, the debate still became quite heated, and both debaters maintained the same positions they entered the call with.
Debate Highlights(Destiny moderating a debate between MrGirl and Lav) | |
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Destiny reacts to a panel featuring Lav
On August 6, 2022, Chudlogic hosted a panel to discuss sex work and OnlyFans.[17] Among the guests on this panel included Merrick Deville, Wickedsupreme, and Lav. Destiny had chosen to watch this panel because he was interested in Lav's perspective as an individual who quit creating OnlyFans content as a result of her interactions with MrGirl.[18]
Lav confronts Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate
On August 7, 2022, Lav confronted Destiny in a Pre-Panel debate, accusing him of misunderstanding the financial struggles of sex workers when comparing them to other professions like doctors.[19] The two discussed the societal implications of sex work(particularly on platforms like OnlyFans), it's role in the dehumanization of women, and the tendency for it to set unrealistic beauty standards. They debated the role of personal responsibility in women who choose to partake in sex work, with Lav pointing to the potential negative impacts of sex work on society, while Destiny argued that the issue lies more with societal engagement and overindulgence in technology rather than with sex work itself.
Debate Highlights | |
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Highlights from the panel include:
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Lav debates sex work and ethics on a ChudLogic panel
On August 7, 2022 Lav joined Destiny, Dan, Sneako, and MrGirl, to discuss several topics including OnlyFans, sex work, AI porn, and Dogwarts.[20] Much like her prior appearances, Lav takes the position that sex work is a net-negative to society and should be heavily regulated. As there are multiple sex-workers(TafTaj and Jenavive) on the call, much contention arises. This conversation quickly becomes heated as multiple "shit-stirrers" are present in the call.
Debate Highlights | |
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Highlights from this panel include:
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Lav hashes out her personal grievances with several orbiters on Destiny's stream
On August 11, 2022, Lav confronted several orbiters on Destiny's stream for several hours to hash out some perceived personal grievances the individuals had with one another(primarily between Brittany and Lav).[21] The "panel" initially started as a one on one discussion between Destiny and Lav, wherein she had many negative things to say about Brittany Simon. The conversation quickly devolved into a shouting match as more orbiters elected to join the discord call, and known shit-stirrer Dan contributed to the chaos. During the conversation, Lav and MrGirl try to convince a very high Brittany that her method of operating her Patreon and the “levels" system she utilizes are harmful. However, the disparate ways in which MrGirl and Lav present their messages leads to conflict between the two. By the end of the conversation Lav agrees with Brittany that she is smart enough to know what she's doing, and is truthfully engaging in harm reduction(Destiny argues that she likely states this to spite MrGirl).
Debate Highlights | |
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Highlights from the panel include:
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Dan discusses a leaked recording of Lav trash talking Destiny
On August 12, 2022, Dan shed some light on a leaked recording involving Lav.[22] [23] This conversation occurred on ChudLogic's channel, and lasted around sixteen minutes. The conversation begins with a content creator in Chud's community, Kuihman, alleging that Lav lied about an individual stalking, calling the FBI on her, and posting a photo of her house on a private server. This all occurred after Lav lead a harassment campaign against the individual's friends.
Dan, Chud, and Kuihman go on to listen to a leaked call wherein Lav stated that Destiny wanted to suck her husband's cock, and that she would never sleep with him. In the call, Lav calls Destiny a "cheese-boy", elf, and troll-man. Dan says there are two possibilities, either Destiny is joking or a coomer.
Discussion Highlights | |
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Lav discusses allegations made against her in a ChudLogic panel
On August 14, 2022, Lav joined a ChudLogic panel to discuss allegations made against her, Destiny listened to the conversation for half an hour before he got bored.[24][25] During the call Lav confronts Kuihman over some alleged discord harassment campaigns he and his friends had organized against her.
Lav dispels the rumors about Destiny asking to suck her husband's cock. She reasons that she was just bantering and says many absurd things in discord calls, like wanting to fuck dogs(her preference is a Doberman). Lav goes on to say she'd be open to having sex with Destiny despite her bantering in the leaked call. She also states that her and Destiny were friends several months before she started to stream, implying any claims of her "clout-sharking" to be absurd.
Lav discusses sex work and feminism with Destiny, debates pornography with Kai Clips
On September 12, 2022, Lav had a discussion with Destiny regarding Feminism, Sex work, and her discord ban from MrGirl's server. [26]
During the discussion, Lav expresses her mixed feelings towards radical-feminism, explaining that she disagrees with several of its tenets while agreeing with some. She goes on to confess her lack of concern for transwomen's feelings, specifically mentioning she doesn't care if they don't want to be referred to as male. She also criticizes transwomen for discussing feminist issues related to female socialization. Destiny took issue with Lav's rhetoric, warning against taking more "provocative" positions that may lead to social media backlash and a toxic community.
On feminism, Lav identifies her main issue with radical-feminism being its perceived masculinization of women. She labels herself as a cultural feminist, explaining that she aims for a society that emphasizes women's inherent qualities. Destiny argues that Lav's views might stem from a previously "unexamined life", making her vulnerable to new and abstract concepts. He points to her relationship with her appearance and her previous OnlyFans involvement to illustrate his point.
On the topic of sex-work's morality, Destiny probes Lav about power imbalances in male-female sexual relations. Lav responds by suggesting casual sex should be restricted to friends, arguing it is the "greatest display of physical intimacy that you can have with somebody". Regarding sex-work, she criticizes the harmful content in porn(i.e. rape-play/bdsm) and its accessibility to children. Finally, Lav believes women can't give informed consent in the current scope of sex work, but she'd accept it in a perfectly equal society.
Near the end of their debate, Destiny points out that Lav tends to take very strong positions on topics, scream at people, act smug about it, and then will later say she never felt very strong about the topic to begin with. Lav responds that she has difficulty managing the line between being entertaining and nuanced, and says she will attempt to rectify this issue.
Debate Highlights, Destiny vs Lav | |
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During the same stream, Kai Clips joins the call to debate pornography with Lav. While both oppose pornographic content, Kai feels Lav doesn't articulate her stance well. The primary distinction is that Lav thinks pornographic content could exist in a scenario where parties give perfect consent, but Kai believes it shouldn't exist at all.
Debate Highlights, Lav vs KaiClips | |
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Lav debates Trans issues with Destiny
On October 3, 2022, Lav debated Destiny on whether or not nonbinary trans people exist.[27] By the end of the conversation, Lav remained skeptical of the existence of nonbinary individuals but was open to considering the existence of a "gendered-experience".
Debate Highlights | |
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Destiny debates Lav and Zherka, featuring Chaeiry
On October 15, 2022 Destiny debated Lav, Zherka, and Chaeiry.[28] The video starts with Lav talking about her new Patreon, and her fallout with Chaeiry. Lav claims that Chaeiry "farmed" people against her, labeled her as racist, and obsessively responded to her content. Lav goes on to explain that because Chaeiry was reviewing her vods so obsessively, she was forced to private them. Later, she shares that her experience in MrGirl's community made her strongly against sex work, and expresses her concern about the backlash from changing her stance. Destiny tells her that it's okay to change views occasionally, but advises her to avoid making strong statements throughout the process. Lav takes issue with this accusation, and the two debate for some time. Zherka eventually joins the conversation, starting a debate about the femininity of men and what women genuinely seek in men.
Some time after Lav disconnects, Chaeiry joins the call later that day to discuss the things Lav had said. She shows Destiny a clip of Lav on a political panel, wherein Lav calls herself "black and slow"(she plays this off as a Jesse Lee Peterson quote). Chaeiry's goes on to assert that her primary issue is Lav making racial jokes in the presence of several racist individuals, before she eventually leaves the call.
Debate Highlights | |
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Destiny shouts at Lav in a panel addressing MrGirl allegations by Chaeiry
On October 16, 2022, Destiny and a panel of orbiters held a discussion on drama involving Chaeiry and Mrgirl, as well as a "nuke" Lav wanted to drop on Hasan.[29] Chaeiry, thinking MrGirl had intentionally lifted his shirt to flash his stomach/lower body(and pubes), tweeted out a #metoo style tweet alongside Stardust with regards to the incident. Seeing the backlash she received following her accusations, Chaiery decided to speak with Destiny in hopes of receiving clarification as to where she messed up. After some discussion(and further questioning by Chaeiry), Destiny concludes that assuming any maliciousness from MrGirl during this incident would be unreasonable.
Later on, Dan joins the call followed by Lav, Aba, and Zherka. Lav brags about "being right" with regards to Chaeiry's character, mentioning her toxicity and alleged mental illness, and proceeds to defend MrGirl. Destiny takes issue with the harshness of Lav's criticisms, and the two discuss for some time. Throughout the conversation, Lav derides Chaiery's character, insults her, and accuses her of betraying MrGirl's friendship and trust. The conversation goes on for around twenty minutes before the panel decides to discuss sex work with Lav. Noticing a lull in the topics, Ahrelevant joins the call to debate with Lav about the ethicacy of online pornograophy, and her heavy-handedness during debates. This conversation quickly gets derailed as Darius enters the call to shout at Lav.
The conversation becomes even more personal when Aba expresses his disdaine for Lav, calling her a version of Sneako with less charisma. He goes on to point to Lav's ability to take strong moral stances on topics she has no prior knowledge on, Lav takes issue with this and the two(along with Ahrel) discuss for some time. Shortly after this conversation, Lav alludes to a "nuke" on Hasan. Destiny stops her from dropping the nuke, stating she will end her whole career over this and that the allegations are not strong enough. Eventually Chaeiry joins the call to confront Lav, and the two argue for some time. MrGirl enters the call shortly after Chaeiry, and recreates the pose that was clipped and started the initial drama. The setup he recreates the pose in has much better lighting, and shows that only his abdomen and love handles are visible(no pubes to be seen).
Chaeiry and MrGirl debate for some time. Eventually, Chaeiry agrees that MrGirl's lower back, and not his butt, was shown. MrGirl, citing himself as being in survival mode, qualifies his defense by stating one should "believe all women" in these cases and acknowledges that Chaeiry may have felt uncomfortable. Eventually, the conversation shifts focus back to Lav(after she accuses Chaiery of lying) and Destiny is forced to explain to her what a lie is. While in the middle of defining what a lie is, Lav interrupts Destiny, to which Destiny responds by calling Lav a "dumb bitch". Several more people interrupt Destiny, and he threatens to ban the entire panel. Destiny snaps once more, saying this whole situation is a nothing burger that nobody will remember. Destiny further argues that the only one who deserves to be angry is MrGirl, who should probably be going much harder on Chaeiry as a result of her actions. MrGirl eventually leaves, and the panel members then turn their attention to Lav and criticize her for treating Chaiery poorly during the discussion. Lav and Chaiery continue to argue whether Chaiery lied, and in the end, Lav angrily exits the call.
Debate Highlights | |
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Destiny confronts Lav after reacting to her talking about him on other streams AKA Destiny takes off the "kids gloves" and yells at Lav
On October 23, 2022, Destiny watches several clip of Lav speaking about him on other streams. [30] During the clips, Lav makes the following statements which Destiny took issue with:
- She states she is less interested in teaching Destiny how to treat her, and more interested in having relationships with people who already already know how to respect her. Destiny responds that Lav is cringe, young, and naive, especially when it comes to establishing boundaries with other people.
- She agrees with MrGirl's claim that nobody who has ever loved Destiny has ever pushed back against him. Destiny again, expresses his frustration with watching a young individual, whose opinions he has observed change frequently, trying to psychoanalyze his relationship.
- She maintains that Chaeiry and Stardust were purposely malicious in their attempted cancellation of MrGirl, and accuses Destiny of not coming to MrGirl's aid. Destiny responds that the overwhelming majority of online spaces were coming out against Chaiery and Stardust, and he found it unnecessary to add on to the criticism they were receiving as a result of the accusation.
Eventually, Lav joins the stream to confront Destiny. Lav claims she never "talked shit" about Destiny on other streams, and accuses Destiny of "emboldening" his community against her and breeding misogyny. She also maintains that Destiny's audience has many groypers in it harassing her. Destiny responds that he polices against misogyny heavily in his community, and points out that Lav has spent much time on Groyper platforms. He clarifies that this is is likely where the harassment she receives is coming from. The two debate the perceived Misogyny in Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit), Lav's characterization of Destiny on other streams, and Lav's behavior in debates.
Throughout their conversation, Destiny attempts to make clear to Lav that her on-stream issues do not stem from her unfamiliarity with debate spheres. Instead, he explains they stem from her habit of belittling other people who hold differing views from her, and then changing her mind on these views the next day. Destiny points out that Lav perfectly situates herself in most conversations to sit on either side of the fence on a given topic, and when she confronts an individual on that topic, she flips to the "good side" of that fence. The conversation gets quite emotional with Lav even sobbing through her arguments at one point. Lav eventually apologizes, says she was wrong, and that she does not truly think Destiny's audience is filled with groypers or misogynists.
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Orbiter Civil War AKA Lav and 12 other orbiters yell at each other for several hours
On October 24, 2022, Lav and several other orbiters held a discussion for several hours on Destiny's stream.[31][32] The "prelude" to the civil war, involved Brittany and Destiny discussing the "real-world" impact of streamers, and the potentiality for certain orbiters(i.e MrGirl and Lav) to betray Destiny.
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Aba eventually joins the call, and the Orbiter Civil War officially kicks off. The primary contention starts between Aba and Lav. Aba claimed most discussions with Lav are pointless, as she will always fall back on being "young and naive" whenever she's proven wrong in a discussion. Destiny tries to moderate the discussion between the two, as he sees no issue in Lav's ignorance as long as she eventually admits fault. Each orbiter(outside of Brittany), seemingly had a "problem":
- Brittany has no problems, she's just an observer.
- Chaiery has a problem regarding the fallout of her failed cancellation of MrGirl and animosity towards Lav.
- Dan wants to stir up drama.
- Lav has a problem with Destiny's community attitude towards her, nobody taking her seriously, and a general animosity toward Chaiery.
- MrGirl is mad about Destiny's community(primarily the subreddit and it's moderation). He feels the subreddit is part of a system of discrediting other orbiters, and making them look bad.
- Stardust has issues with the deterioration of her friendship with MrGirl as a result of her attempt to cancel him.
Destiny first addresses the issues with Lav. Lav accuses Destiny of tarnishing her reputation by labeling her as being young and naive, which leads the subreddit to echo this sentiment. Destiny responds, asserting that his intention is not to discredit her but to provide an explanation for the seemingly contradictory and highly irrational nature of some of her statements. He clarifies his stance on Lav’s behavior, describing it as manipulative/"gaslighty", and that she tends to feign ignorance on topics in order to escape accountability for her charged rhetoric
Destiny's contentions with MrGirl arise in the form of a debate on community responsibility. MrGirl and Lav argue that Destiny shouldn't call out the mistakes of smaller content creators on his stream, as it might turn his audience against them. For instance, MrGirl thinks Lav should have the freedom to call anyone a "dumb bitch" on stream, but believes Destiny shouldn't, because his audience would deride the "dumb bitch" in question. Destiny counters that he would never allow anyone to get away with poor behavior on his stream, regardless of their size. Chaiery, Pxie, and Brittany take Destiny's side, and argue that MrGirl and Lav are attempting to absolve themselves from all responsibility for their actions by blaming Destiny for the community's behavior towards them. Lav does not speak much throughout this portion of the conversation, and only chimes in to echo whatever sentiment MrGirl conveys.
As the discussion progresses, the group eventually discusses the relative meanness of Destiny and MrGirl. Destiny confesses that his own words are often "meaner," but he also points to the significant impact of MrGirl's way of framing certain issues to fit his own narrative. He compares his own insult towards Lav, calling her a dumb bitch, to MrGirl’s statement that Chaiery is "incapable of having a conversation." Feeling attacked in this conversation, MrGirl labels the other orbiters in the call "white blood cells" because they rally to counteract his points against Destiny. Throughout this portion of the conversation, several orbiters in the call point out that MrGirl arguments make it seem like he wishes to avoid all responsibility for his actions on stream by wishing to never be called out on any poor behavior. Near the end of this conversation, Lav decides to bring up REDACTED as an example of abused orbiters. Lav goes on to claim that REDACTED was a normal women that was tormented and demonized by Destiny's community. Destiny takes issue with this and the two discuss for some time until the call ends.
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Destiny reacts to an emotional Lav stream
On October 29, 2022, Destiny reacted to an emotional stream featuring Lav.[33]. Throughout the video, Lav maintains a somber demeanor and tone while clutching her knees to her chest in the fetal position. She addresses her problems with Destiny criticizing her on-stream behavior, and shares her distress about Destiny labeling her as an abuser in front of "several thousand people". As the video plays, Destiny attempts to tackle any arguments he perceives to be dubious in the VOD, and responds to questions from the chat about Lav's behavior. Destiny's major criticism of Lav is that she tends to make her "feelings" into statements of fact, and tends to leverage her emotional state to win arguments(hence the abuse accusations towards Lav).
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Lav discusses misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring Aba and Sneako
On October 28, 2022, Lav discussed Misogyny and community moderation on a panel featuring many orbiters including Aba, Sneako, Counterpoints, and Rem.[34] The video begins with Lav apologizing for bringing up REDACTED in a previous conversation, and Destiny responding that he doesn't give a fuck. Soon after, Aba takes the chance to confront Lav about her habit of speaking impulsively. In return, Lav accuses Aba of being a misogynist, leading to a prolonged debate between members of the panel over Lav's behavior and her tendency to speak without thinking. Throughout the conversation, Sneako routinely asks Lav what she's wearing, and requests she turn her camera on. Meanwhile, Rem shit stirs with Dan's assistance, Erudite earnestly tries to guide Lav to a more reasonable stance, and Destiny struggles to moderate the panel's aggression and seemingly overt misogyny. Counterpoints works to uncover the valid points in Lav's "bullshit," even preparing a document to support his case, while Aba consistently criticizes Lav, likening her to a youthful, naive, and irritating version of Sneako in a wig, and labels her a detrimental figure for women in the midst of the anti-misogyny discourse.
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Destiny and Dan recap MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav's Future
On November 1, 2022 Dan and Destiny had a conversation recapping MrGirl's bridge burning, and Lav's future as an orbiter.[35] The two anticipate MrGirl to make a comeback after his pattern of temporary internet departures, similar to a tactic which Dan dubs as the "REM maneuver." Dan points out that despite the complications with MrGirl, Lav consistently returns from breaks with more strength, although her departures are brief and somewhat performative. The conversation continues, and there is a debate over whether Max will abandon his principles in order to make a return to the internet/Destiny's orbit. Dan asserts that Max's inflexible methodology and extreme bridge-burning are problematic, and further argues that Max possesses a "rigid-unadapting self-perception". Destiny suggests that Max will likely create a rationale to justify his return to the internet, potentially with some changes to his approach, unlike Lav, who has more leeway to evolve due to her less absolute commitments.
Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into an Impromptu Debate featuring Lav
On November 4, 2022 Aba, Brittany Simon, Dan, Politically Provoked's Brittany, Lav, and several other orbiters engaged in an impromptu debate on sex work, OnlyFans, and Relationships.[36] The video begins with a debate between Politically Provoked Brittany and several other orbiters(including Lav) debating the feasibility of OnlyFans workers like Lav taking public stances against misogyny. The conversation then shifts to an argument over whether or not an individual can ever have "healthy" conversations with an OnlyFans content creator. Destiny maintains it's possible for a healthy discussion to be had, but it's impossible to know from an outside perspective. Chaiery, Brittany Simon and other orbiters take issue with Destiny's perspective and the panel discusses for some time. This conversation eventually evolves into a discussion of individuals becoming lonelier in society, and having fewer friends, Destiny and Aba agree this is likely a result of the internet/technology while Brittany disagrees this is the primary cause. At some point during this conversation, Lav states that Destiny convinced her to close her relationship, as a result of viewing how he engages in open relationships. This results in a personal debate between Lav and Destiny over whose life is more "niche" or unmaintable for the average person. Lav argues that the way Destiny manages her open relationship is a "niche", while Destiny counters that a partner being okay with someone who posts nudes on OnlyFans and Twitter is also an oddity.
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Destiny discusses Lex Fridman and Lav
On November 5, 2022 Destiny discussed Lex Fridman and Lav during viewer call-ins. At around twenty-two minutes, Destiny brings up that Lex is fascinated by Lav, and thinks she has a "really beautiful mind".[37] Destiny found this very amusing as Lex even shared this sentiment with Melina(who was not very fond of Lav at the time).
Lav and Melina fire shots at one another on their streams
On October 28, 2022 Melina, Destiny's then wife, discussed her frustrations with watching Lav and several other orbiters interactions with Destiny on stream.[38] Melina expresses her frustration with ongoing drama involving Lav, and draws parallels to manipulative behaviors she recognizes from her sister. She expresses discomfort with how some of Stephen's friends and acquaintances(i.e. Brittany) who lack a deep understanding of him, overly analyze and discuss his personal life and relationships. She goes on to say that such behavior is "creepy" and quite "parasocial", particularly when they attempt to analyze Destiny's behavior(i.e. saying "Oh Steven actually thinks this..."). Melina also shares concerns about the "worthlessness" of online interactions and friendships, especially those revolving around her partner. She explains that Destiny and herself have a strong physical and emotional connection, while those online tend to be shallow and obsessive. Throughout the video, Melina expresses her disdain for the manipulative and victim-playing tactics that she has regularly experienced in online communities, and expresses her desire for more "meaningful" interactions that can't typically be found online.
On November 6, 2022 Lav reacted to a video showcasing all of Melina's criticisms of her on stream. [39] On her stream, Lav accuses Melina of being immature and "very weird". Lav took particular issue with Melina's criticism of her "being babied her entire life for being pretty", to which Lav describes her own hardships, including family neglect and substance addiction. She goes on to claim that Melina is unfairly making assumptions about her life, much like she accused Lav of doing with Destiny. The video progresses, and Lav questions Melina's claims about Destiny treating her like a child, asserting that Melina is misconstruing Destiny's charitability and nice behavior. In response to Melina's "psychoanalysis" accusations, Lav argues that Melina is performing a psychoanalysis herself, and points out that Destiny's highly public life, as he streams every day, makes such analysis warranted. Lav further elaborates that both Brittany and herself have personal relationships with Destiny, granting them the right to discuss him. She then accuses Melina of avoiding mentioning Destiny on her stream, claiming that Melina receives more donations when she refrains from doing so. Lav concedes that she does not know Destiny as well as an ex-girlfriend would(as Melina claimed), but caveats that they know him enough through their interactions on stream to warrant discussion on his behavior. Lav concludes her stream by sharing her personal views on open relationships, and her interactions with Steven.
Lav joins a debate panel featuring Low Tier God and JiDion
On November 6, 2022 Lav took part in a panel discussing anti-Semitism and black issues, featuring JiDion, Low Tier God, Aba, Counterpoints, Pxie, and Darius.[40] The panel opens with a debate regarding the importance of voting in presidential elections. JiDion, Aba, and Low Tier God argue that voting in these elections is unimportant and further state that they view former President Obama's tenure as ineffective. Several of the other panelists took issue with this view, pointing to the significance of voting and the impact of Obama's presidency. The conversation then narrows to a more specific focus on the black community. During which time, the panel discussed the opportunities and challenges for its improvement, and eventually touched on the problem of antisemitism in black communities.
The discussion on antisemitism remained moderate, until Lav introduced the topic of increasing integration between white and black people online, a trend she perceived as problematic. She expressed concerns about black communities adopting antisemitic behaviors similar to those found among whites on the internet, drawing a parallel to Nazi Germany. Lav further elaborated on how she sees groypers and black individuals uniting online to ridicule Jews, goes on to describe how a Jewish man is more likely to be "hate-crimed" on the street than a black man, and laments the lack of institutions protecting Jewish people as they do African Americans. This led to a discussion on recent events which resulted in several NBA stars apologizing for perceived antisemitic remarks from Kyrie Irving. Aba thought it was strange how quick they were to jump to the defense of Jewish people, Lav argued that they were just defending their friends, and JiDeon questioned the reasoning for asking someone like Shaq or LeBron to denounce the remarks (as opposed to a Jewish NBA star). The conversation intensifies, as Lav remarks that Jewish people went through a genocide, and cites this as a reason for needing to be more critical of individuals who speak out against Jewish individuals. Aba takes issue with this claim, and argues that Jewish people need to move on from their past, similar to how African Americans needed to move on from slavery. Aba goes on to recommend that Jewish individuals like Lav should pick themselves up by their bootstraps and move on from their former oppression. At some point during the conversation Lav accuses Aba of being antisemitic for assuming she was pro-Israel just because she's Jewish.
The conversation takes a turn for some time, as Pxie prods Low Tier God on his claim that black people need to make better decisions. They discuss "the talk" black parents give their children about police interactions and other systematic issues. Pxie appears to believe that some of Low Tier God's arguments might make him seem like a "pick-me" for Republican bootstraps talking points, and tries to argue from a "meta" perspective on systematic black issues, such as the potential for encountering a racist cop. Meanwhile, Low Tier God argues from a desire to improve the lives of other African American individuals. At one point Pxie asks Low Tier God to acknowledge that it's possible for a black person to act on their best behavior and still get "fucked over" by a racist. Lav ,feeling the need to answer for LowTierGod, assures Pxie that Low Tier God knows this. Low Tier God responds that he does not believe this, and Lav once again attempts to run defense for him by responding that Pxie is attempting to "posture over a black man". Later on, Low Tier God laments that the only way African Americans can earn money on a large scale is through entertainment. He goes on to question why wealthy African Americans would even want to risk their wealth by making antisemitic remarks, and argues that they themselves damage the community. Destiny and Low Tier God then discuss the systematic issues prevalent in black communities for some time before the call concludes.
r/Destiny was not fond of Lav's performance during the debate and created many posts criticsing and poking fun at Lav. One such post, has Lav appearing in blackface.[41]
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A debate panel featuring Lav, Aba, and Annalicia gets derailed. Lav suggests that Tree of Logic is in the "sunken place"
On November 7, 2022, Lav participated in a panel featuring Aba, Annalicia, Pxie, 4THOT, Fanatiq, and Tree of Logic.[43] The panel members primarily discussed issues involving challenges in the black community, including fatherlessness, racial dynamics, and the impact of economic factors on family structures. Throughout the conversation, personal attacks and accusations of racism were frequently levied by both sides of the panel. Annalicia and Lav were of the opinion that black men made poor fathers, and that black men were more or less detrimental to the success of black women. The two frequently backed each others viewpoints as they debated against several of the aforementioned orbiters. Frequently throughout the panel, Annalicia would be asked a pointed question regarding her position, Lav would chime in before Annalicia could speak, and a panel member would tell Lav to let Annalicia speak. The panel eventually devolved into a shouting match between several black members of the panel, as Annalicia vehemently defended her points against Fanatiq, Tree, and Anti (a black phd student).
During the panel, Lav cited incarceration statistics of black men and crime rates as reasons for them being poor fathers. She also recommended that Straighterade should trust and listen to Anna's experience as a black woman. This led 4THOT to introduce a black female therapist, Alice Jay, who took issue with Lav's views on absent black fathers, arguing the absenteeism was not as frequent as Lav claimed. Lav dismissed Alice's perspective, claiming she only saw privileged clients. Alice counters, pointing to her work in an underserved area, and mentioned many of her patients are on Medicaid. Despite this, Lav insisted that these individuals are still privileged and niche. Lav proceeds to share her upbringing in Englewood, California, surrounded by black people, and noted that none of them recognized mental illnesses in their children, and would likely never have taken them to a therapist such as Alice. Straighterade then points to the irony of Lav speaking condescendingly to a black woman, shortly after affirming the authority of black women on this subject.
At some point, Tree of Logic joins the stream. She begrudgingly agrees with an opinion given by Fanatic, that black women have all the agency with regards to "who makes the babies". This results in a debate between Annalicia(backed by Lav), Tree of Logic, and the other members of the panel. The debate unfortunately gets heavily mired by Annalicia's refusal to define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, which results in the two becoming incredibly heated early on in their discussion. Annalicia eventually does define what a "pookie" and "ray-ray" are, describing them as these individuals that are going to school, getting educated, coming from good socioeconomic standings, yet are still leaving single mothers behind with other races(i.e. Asian, Hispanic, white). When pushed, Annalicia elaborates that 70% of black men fall under this category. Tree takes issue with this, and accuses Annalicia of not providing enough agency to black women with regards to partner selection. While Tree is giving her response, Lav stops her to inform Tree that her and Annalicia want the same thing: for black women to live more empowered lives. Annalicia disagrees with this characterization, and at one point calls Tree remedial(a more pc version of the word "retarded"). Lav would then pause the two mid-conversation a second time to ask a question, to which Tree requests that Lav shut the fuck up. Lav then attempted to interrupt the conversation one more time to get the panel members to watch a video breaking down interracial marriages, but is shot down repeatedly. In an attempt to defend Annalicia, Lav accuses the other panel members of being unfair in their critiques and overly hostile to Annalicia. She would go on to suggest that Tree is in "the sunken place" and accuses Tree of letting a man "lead" her.
Much like her previous appearance with JiDeon and Low Tier God, Lav was met with much criticism on r/Destiny as a result of her debate performance. Once again some posts depicted Lav in black face, while others took a more tempered approach to their critiques of Lav.[44]
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Destiny reacts to a clip of Lav on Chudlogic's stream
On November 7, 2022, Lav appeared on a stream with Chudlogic to discuss her recent showings on Destiny's stream and her recent behavior since joining the "pol" community.[45]
Destiny responded to a clip from this panel on November 9, 2022. [46] In the clip, Lav states that Destiny's community is overrun with misogynistic douchebags. Fellow panelist Wickedsupreme tries to counter this accusation, but Lav intensifies her criticism, labeling even the moderators in DGG as incels.Upon hearing this, Destiny jokingly proposes creating a training course for potential stream participants to understand true internet hostility.He elaborates that if an individual is feeling "broken" as a result of their interactions with DGG, they are simply not cut out for the online space in general. He jokingly suggests that one of the lessons in the orbiter training camp, would be people simultaneously hacking the orbiter's twitter account, while calling them racial slurs, making death threats, and creating a subreddit dedicated to hating the individual and their entire existence(all things which have happened to Destiny). He then compares this to DGG, who might make mean subreddit posts about individuals, and occasionally show up in twitter replies/mentions. Destiny points to a recent video he watched involving Lav and Mrgirl, in which Lav was "literally crying" because she was banned from r/Destiny. Destiny mockingly compares this to a dick-pic of his which was embedded in the CSS of a subreddit for several months.
Later on in the video Destiny is told: "Apparently she read a text of you telling her good job for her appearance, but not good enough because you didn't' defend her against melina." Destiny responds that he does not wish to stand between Lav and Melina, and that he doesn't care for their disagreements with one another. Destiny then reads the exact message he sent "Good job you contributed well tonight, you're a tenacious one i'll give you that." Destiny proceeds to read a complaint from Lav regarding critcisiams she received from RightToBearArmsLOL, to which Destiny responded RTBA is "his own proud bear, talk to him". Destiny encourages Lav to publicly reveal their private messages if she ever feels he's being duplicitous, underscoring his disapproval of being portrayed as two-faced.
Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together
On November 9, 2022 Destiny reacted to a MrGirl stream titled "Misogyny with Lav". [47] MrGirl and Lav begin their conversation by discussing Lav's involvement in sex-work, where MrGirl suggests that she integrates misogyny into her profession. Their discussion then shifts to the presumedly severe critique they face from r/destiny. During the discussion, Lav reveals that she has implored Destiny to be mindful of her feelings regarding the subreddit's criticism. She argues that misogyny is a widespread issue affecting all women, noting that attractive women, like herself(especially those in the upper echelons of attractiveness in which she believes herself to be a part of), often face more severe scrutiny. Lav mentions that 70% of the criticism directed at her from the subreddit bring up how attractive she is, and informs MrGirl that she's "killing herself" trying to internalize all the criticism she receives. The climax of the stream occurs when MrGirl strongly advises Lav to distance herself from Destiny's orbit, explaining that he left it himself as an example for her, after which both begin sobbing.
The discussion continues, and Lav discusses her grievances with Destiny's moderation team, initially focusing on her conflicts with 4THOT and her subsequent ban from the subreddit. She then discusses an interaction with RightToBearArmsLOL, who, according to her, messaged her concerning her accusation of antisemitism directed at Aba. She alleges that RightToBearArmsLOL warned her about a potential ban if she "weaponizes her Jewishness against Aba again." When Destiny reviews these messages, he comments that their content doesn't seem as serious as Lav had portrayed. Destiny proceeds to outline the "abuser-tactic" MrGirl utilizes to convince Lav.
"If you're trying to convince somebody to do something, that they're kind of half in on, that you kind of want them to do... usually when people are trying to seal the deal... the goal of most people is to push them all the way to be fully on board with this(aka full commitment to an action), that's what you want to push them towards. But if you wanna be really manipulative, the real goal is to have them emotionally roped in enough so that you have them right here(bordering on acceptance of committing an action), and then as soon as you know you've got them, you pull back completely, and then you go hands-off, and then you let them argue the rest of the way so they feel like they're the ones who are moving themselves this way(fully bought in). It lets you remove full responsibility from the decision later."-Destiny outlining how MrGirl convinced Lav 52:52
As Destiny resumes the video, MrGirl alleges that Destiny banned him from r/destiny due to concerns that he might influence his community against Destiny. MrGirl asserts that Destiny is on precarious grounds, fearful of losing everything. He further speculates that Destiny relies on a constant influx of orbiters for his followers to dogpile on. Lav then asks for MrGirl to refrain from talking about Destiny's life any further, for fear that they will be "torn to shreds" if they do. She claims to want to leave Destiny's community, but wants to also look "strong". MrGirl replies that the narrative after he left Destiny's orbit was that he tried to take over the subreddit and failed, so he left but is desperate for DGG's approval so he'll likely return at any moment. In the ongoing discussion, MrGirl expresses his sadness over the numerous "pro-Aba" posts on the subreddit, and asserts that the community is bound to eventually tear him down, and that no orbiter is safe. MrGirl claims that the only way to enable Lav to come back on Destiny's stream with no boundaries, is for him to suck up all of the anger from the community, so she doesn't have to.
Lav goes on to share her grievances regarding Destiny's behavior, contrasting his on-stream demeanor with his off-stream actions. She expresses frustration about how Destiny often praises her intelligence and how great she is on stream , yet she feels mistreated by him during live streams. As an example, Lav cites a situation where Destiny messaged her about her excellent performance on stream, but then allowed Melina to criticize her on her own stream.
As the stream concludes, Destiny claims Lav contradicts herself a lot, is internally incoherent, is inconsistent with her own beliefs, and in the process of changing constantly internally. Destiny qualifies that Lav is still very smart, however he can understand why people would perceive her to be "stupid", following seeing her exhibit the aforementioned negative qualities. Destiny then points to how people will routinely faulter in debates against Lav by failing to bring "receipts" to back their arguments.
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Destiny addresses Lav and MrGirl's allegations. Issues a content ban on both
On November 10, 2022, Destiny responded to several allegations from Lav, and exposed a manifesto she had been working on with MrGirl behind the scenes. [48] This stream occured following a call in which Lav debated several DGGers regarding REDACTED.
Destiny discusses what MrGirl and Lav have been doing behind the scenes, details his relationship with the two
At the beginning of the stream, Destiny recounts the events from the past few months up to the present and laments the current situation he finds himself in. He explains that his online interactions with most people have a minimal impact on his emotions, noting that only three people could significantly affect him in this way. However, following a recent tumultuous interpersonal drama, Destiny decided to initiate offline engagements with these individuals to foster more "human" interactions. The two people that Destiny decided to attempt these offline engagement with were MrGirl and Lav. Destiny comments that Lav, REDACTED, and Shaelin are not really at fault, describing MrGirl as a narcissistic manipulator who abuses everyone around him. He refers to MrGirl's interactions with Lav on his stream, noting the change in Lav's behavior. Destiny also mentions hearing Shaelin's comments on Chudlogic's streams and the messages he received from REDACTED. From these observations, he deduces that MrGirl has been emotionally abusing, manipulating, and gaslighting these individuals, in order to influence their feelings to suit his desires. Later on in the stream, Destiny describes how he started to receive direct messages from individuals a few days ago. These messages informed Destiny that MrGirl had been reaching out to every single women Destiny has ever had in the background on his discord, coupled with several men trying to get lists of women that Destiny has ever spoken to. Destiny then details the "fetish" MrGirl accuses him of possessing:
"He(MrGirl) has built up this idea that I have essentially the following fetish: I approach a women, float the idea of her being on my stream, I fuck them, then I bring her on stream and I have my entire fan base attack her because I get off on that, and then I run her out of my community. He's built this narrative after farming REDACTED for information... He's trying to find every other girl that i've spoken to, to see if he could get similar stories out of them." -Destiny
Destiny goes on to explain Lav's part in this manifesto, describing how she had revealed that destiny and her had hooked-up to MrGirl. Destiny goes on to explain his annoyance with Lav accusing him of only defending certain individuals because they hooked-up, despite the fact that he had hooked-up with her. Destiny returns focus to MrGirl and lists off what he knows about MrGirl investigative efforts:
- MrGirl has contacted at least 20-30 women
- MrGirl has been desperately attempting to get into contact with Denims and Badbunny
- MrGirl is mutual friends with every single girl on Destiny's friends list. Destiny hypothesizes that MrGirl is likely calling these girls and attempting to convince them that Destiny is acting improper or wrong.
Destiny expresses his frustration, as MrGirl is only able to confront these individuals due to very personal/private information Destiny had provided to him(something Destiny rarely does). Destiny proceeds to accuse MrGirl of using this information to deceive others and attack him covertly. Destiny claims he was a good friend to MrGirl and Lav, but assumes they don't reciprocate these feelings due to the subreddit's negative response to their onstream appearances. He continues, asserting he possesses substantial evidence of MrGirl's behind-the-scenes actions. Destiny points to Lav's comparison of him to Harvey Weinstein, attributing it to his sexual encounters with many individuals from his community(something that corresponds with MrGirl's aforementioned "fetish" accusation"). Destiny continues, and reaffirms he has no problem with MrGirl, Lav or anybody who would like to "metoo" him leaking any direct message history if they feel he has acted improper. Destiny does however express concern that MrGirl's ability to manipulate people may result in him convincing some of the individuals to believe they were actually abused(he likens this to Chaiery and Stardust's attempts at cancelling MrGirl). Destiny then remarks that he has considered pulling the plug on MrGirl's website, but has hesitated. He later expresses his frustrations in "baby-walking" individuals like Lav and MrGirl through conversations to show them where they contradict themselves/or why viewers might "hate" them, only to be called abusive by the two in response.
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MrGirl joins the call
MrGirl joins the call, seemingly after Destiny describes the situation involving MrGirl, Shaelin(MrGirl's partner), and Lav as "incredibly creepy". He accuses Destiny of sexting consistently with REDACTED for a year and lying about REDACTED's alleged stalking. To which Destiny retorts the two have no problems with one another anymore, have been fine for a year, and are even friends currently. Destiny then chides MrGirl for making this the lynchpin of his manifesto. The two then debate for some time regarding Destiny's relationship with REDACTED. At one point Destiny, seemingly annoyed, mutes MrGirl so that he may elucidate on a position. MrGirl leaves shortly after. This is the last direct conversation the two have had.
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Destiny addresses Lav's allegations
Shortly after MrGirl leaves, Destiny diverts more attention towards Lav. One of Lav's primary allegations towards Destiny, was likening him to Harvey Weinstein. He comments that Lav and MrGirl share the same views about his alleged 'fetish' and his behavior as a manipulative abuser. He goes on to remark that Lav has been obsessed with MrGirl for months, and will agree with whatever he says. Destiny believes Lav was easily manipulated by MrGirl through the following tactic:
"If you apply enough pressure to somebody, when you let up off that pressure, it's always gonna feel good... This is like the classic good-cop, bad-cop played by one person... you(MrGirl) do this in every conversation you do, you always try to get someone to the edge of crying, and then once they're crying, you ease up on all the pressure, you have a nice moment of silence so they can reflect and process their emotions, and then you reenage in a more calm manner afterwards... you're almost having sex with them mentally, and now they trust you a little more." - Destiny 1:53:17
At one point Lav accuses Destiny(from her stream), of being a hypocrite when calling MrGirl a narcissist. Destiny retorts that Lav has little people experience, does not know what the word means, and is a very easy person to manipulate. He qualifies that he does not blame Lav for succumbing to MrGirl's tactics, but is still hurt as he confided in Lav much personally. Destiny admits he would've waited longer to address MrGirl's pending manifesto, however Lav "going crazy on stream" prompted him to take action sooner. Destiny considers barring all low-viewer streamers from appearing on his platform. He admits that he expected Lav to handle some of the criticism better, given her significant online presence before their meeting. Destiny eventually concludes he will be doing a content ban on both MrGirl and Lav.
Highlights- Lav's allegations | |
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Destiny Confronts Lav, several months following the release of MrGirl's manifesto
On March 5, 2023, Lav spoke for the first time about her previous relationship with Destiny since the release of MrGirl's manifesto in November.[50] The video begins with Lav claiming to Stardust that REDACTED and Destiny talked about "sneaking away into rooms to fuck each other" at TwitchCon. Stardust counters, stating that REDACTED didn't even attend the event. Lav clarifies that she is merely repeating messages sent to her and MrGirl. Lav goes on to suggest that Destiny's desire to drive with herself to TwitchCon, coupled with their sexual history, likely meant he wanted to have sex with her as well. Zonia then tells Lav that Destiny had reviewed logs on his stream that day, wherein he briefly mentioned his sexual relationship with Lav, and noted their sexual-encounters ended before her appearances on his stream. She also points out that TwitchCon happened well after Lav started appearing on Destiny's stream.
Destiny eventually joins the call, seemingly eager to understand why his private sexual details are being discussed on stream. He attempts to ask Lav a question, before being interrupted by her requesting they have at least "thirty seconds of small-talk". The small-talk eventually concludes, and Destiny asks a "random-timeline" question: "When you started to come on, and there was the huge 10-15,000 streams, i'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months as that point, is that true or false?" Lav responds that they did not, but the fact that Destiny offered to "hang-out" at TwitchCon implied the "door was not closed", and that she's "not presenting anything" when she states this. Destiny then argues that Lav seems to portray herself as entering his stream's "combat-zone", becoming emotionally distressed in private due to its traumatic nature, while simultaneously suggesting that he was sexting her during this period. Destiny clarifies that the "crazy-combat stuff" on his stream has a two month buffer between when the time when they had any type of a sexual relationship. Destiny reiterates that Lav claims they had an active sexual relationship while she was being "traumatized" by his stream, and that this was not occuring, to which Lav denies ever making this claim and says she retracts such a statement if she ever made it. Destiny moves on to the next claim, and asserts that he never told Lav she had to perform some sexual act to get on his stream.
At one point, Destiny directly confronts Lav regarding the "MrGirl allegations" and chides her for being MrGirl's star-witness. Lav claims that she merely provided MrGirl with some logs, and then accuses Destiny of being a "weaselly little worm" for deleting them. Destiny asserts that the reason he deleted those logs was to protect the other individuals involved, and that no possible log-leak could hurt him, but would damage the other individuals involved. Destiny continues, stating he would never confirm or deny a sexual relationship, for fear of harming the other individuals involved. Destiny goes on to address Lav's claims of him being the "Harvey Weinstein" of Twitch(aka utilizing sexual coercion with female orbiters), to which the main thrust of her argument is that she once sent Destiny a scantily clad photo and Destiny replied "welcome to the orbiters club". Destiny laughs this off, and mocks Lav for thinking this was her "entry into his stream". Destiny then accuses Lav of looking at the most publicly facing sexual relationships Destiny has had, and trying to condemn all of his relationships by that standard, he goes on to accuse Lav of being a habitual liar.
Lav accuses Destiny of talking shit about her for several months, and that she has remained silent. Destiny replies that he only brings MrGirl and Lav up when they bring him up, he then accuses Lav of sexually abusing him by leaking the details of their hookups with an individual whom she knows hates him. Destiny claims to have never spoken about any of the times Lav has talked shit about her fiance , Connor, publicly. Lav shrieks in response, and states that if Destiny wishes to have this conversation, he can never bring up her fiance again. Destiny responds that he will continue to do so, if she insists on shit talking his partner. Destiny continues, and claims Lav's entire online existence is dedicated to threatening to out him as the Harvey Weinstein of twitch. Lav denies this, to which Destiny reiterates that she is the star witness on the article, and that she is the individual who dragged REDACTED to MrGirl as another star witness. The conversation continues, and Destiny claims to have explictily messaged Lav in private to see if she's okay, and she allegedly responded in the affirmative. Lav claims she never thought Destiny was coercive or abusive, and that was MrGirl's perspective. Destiny then pointedly asks Lav what he has done to wrong her, to which Lav responds she can discuss that with Destiny in private. Destiny then claims that they have had this discussion in private, but Lav was already working with a guy at the time who was trying to wright a sexual-assault piece on him. Lav eventually confesses that she felt uncomfortable in their open-ended sexual relationship, and felt like Destiny was letting people(like Aba) shit on her. Destiny then asks Lav how she would respond in a hypothetical scenario where a conversation Lav was interested in discussing was occuring on stream, she wanted to join, and Destiny responded that she could not join because they hooked up, he claims Lav would not respond well. Lav then states she would respond kindly in such a scenario, to which Destiny accuses Lav of lying, and reiterates he in still unsure what he did wrong by her.
The conversation continues, and Lav emphasies that she was a smaller content creator that Destiny should have protected. Destiny counters that Lav routinely bragged about being a larger content creator than him. He then questions why Lav would continuously invite the harassment, and brag about being a "villain". Lav claims that this was merely a cope to deal with public outcry, and claims that her suicidal feelings were not attributed to being on Destiny's stream but her use of benzos. Destiny points to a clip of Lav asserting that the worst times in her life was when she was drafted into a cult at 16, followed by November when she was on his stream(during which she never claimed to be medicated). When pressed, she claims she didn't want to bring it up for fear of Destiny's community using it as an excuse to torment her. Lav then claims to have watched Destiny ban emotes in his chatroom, and cites this as a reason that he should do some "cleanup" around her. Destiny responds, stating he did take actions, and that the criticism she received actually inspired the anti-misogyny arc within his community. As the conversation concludes, Destiny decides to draw a comparison to how he has treated Lav vs how MrGirl has. He points out the only reason MrGirl and Lav are connected is because he rebuilt that bridge after MrGirl accused Lav of being an "attention whore pedophile" and banned her from his discord.
Debate Highlights. Editor Note: Timestamps link to a now removed video. Timestamps to be updated eventually. | |
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Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip
On November 3, 2023, Destiny joined a Tomfoolery panel featuring Lav, and a leftist-influencer by the name of Catnip who recently had a negative experience debating Destiny. [51] The video opens with Lav claiming that Destiny has spent ten years in "constant-hate", and claiming that Destiny wants to "create villains" in order to divert the hatred he receives. Tomfoolery, the host of the panel, takes issue with this assertion, and is immediately met with several rebuttals from both Lav and Catnip, with the latter accusing Destiny of lying about her. Destiny eventually joins the call, and remarks that all the worst people on the internet are talking about him while he's trying to sleep. Tomfoolery then informs Destiny that Catnip had accused him of lying, and the two discuss for some time. At one point Destiny concludes that Catnip is an emotionally manipulative individual for choosing to bring up both Reckful and a former friend's suicide, to which Lav comes to her defense stating that she should cut out all negative feedback from her life if she truly knows who she is. Destiny remarks that this sounds eerily similar to something MrGirl would say, and the discussion about why Catnip is an emotionally abusive individual, and her choice to bring up two prior acquaintances suicides, continues for some time. The conversation eventually diverges into a discussion on sex-work, and Destiny leaves the call.
Drama between Destiny, Lav, and "blondie"
Unknown Date
On an unknown date In DGG orbiter jstlk's discord server, Lav and another girl ("blondie") posted nudes in the server's "lewd-channel" in an attempt to one-up each other. At one point, Blondie posted a picture of herself with cum on her rear-end. This cum was later revealed to be Destiny's. From this point, an altercation occurs over discord wherein Destiny(aided by blondie), and Lav hurls insults at one another for some time. The drama reaches a climax when Destiny DMs Lav saying to go easy on blondie and that people actually do think Lav is prettier, Lav leaks these logs, and Blondie shows logs where her and Destiny conspired to trick Lav into doing so.[52][53]
February 15, 2024
On February 15, 2024 Destiny joined Lav on jstlk's stream to deliberate about the drama. During the conversation, Lav's primary contention was that Destiny's action proved her point several months ago regarding his supposed fetish of "humiliating girls on his stream after they hookup." Destiny maintains that this is not the case, and he merely enjoys seeing Lav angry. Despite the logs of what transpired being publically available, and the best attempts of both parties to persuade the other of their wrongdoings, no individual moves from their prior position. [54][55]
January 18, 2024
On January 18, 2024 Lav and Destiny had yet another argument in jstlk's discord.[56] This argument was primarily contained within the general chatroom, and lasted from 3:06 PM EST to 4:44 PM EST. During the dispute, Destiny once again actively maintained that Lav's claim about his "getting-off" to girls in his community harassing one another was baseless. He explains that Lav just uses this as a "cope with the fact that she can't help but attack literally every single woman she comes into contact with". Destiny went on to claim that Lav has a habit of embarrassing herself(and had been doing so for years), and had to rename herself on the internet five times in the past couple of years.[57] [58]
Destiny then explains the "lav cycle":
"Lav cycle - join community, get all of the men on your side by shipping dozens of nudes to their DMs, attack every single woman based on appearance, inevitably win fights because no one can compete with someone that hungry for attention who can spend that many hours on Discord literally every single day posting and posting and posting." - Destiny
Destiny elaborates on the "Lav cycle," attributing it to her refusal to coexist with other women in any space. He describes her as the epitome of the "classic archetypical discord chatroom queen," where there's only room for one woman to be "simped over," and all other women are seen as threats. When questioned why he doesn't simply let Lav continue to embarrass herself and avoid giving her acknowledgement. Destiny responds that her way of coping with the massive amount of hate she receives is to spread lies about him, claiming he encourages women he has been intimate with to fight with each other for his own gratification.
After a chatter claims Destiny "weaponized" Lav against Blondie, Destiny counters by saying he simply found the dispute amusing and encouraged it because he enjoyed watching Lav get angry. He clarifies that he finds it extremely entertaining "when super smug, over-entitled people who offer nothing get checked." He asserts that Lav's claim is yet another "massive cope" on her part to rationalize the hatred she receives after behaving aggressively or meanly towards others. Destiny then claims that Lav's "entire personality is her pussy", and that the only thing she can brag about is her looks and attack others appearance. Lav counters by stating that they had never been sexually involved, yet he continued to engage her in conversation. Destiny replies that she had been messaging him a month earlier, pleading for him to appear as a guest on her podcast. Lav denies this, claims she no longer had access to the account Destiny showed logs from anymore, and accuses Destiny of cropping the screenshots to make himself look good. Destiny then responds with more logs, showing their conversation, to which Lav requests that he post the whole chat history. Destiny then posts their entire chat history until her "account left", and wishes Lav luck.
Destiny reacts to Lav crying for mod privileges on jstlk's discord server
On February 20, 2024, Destiny reacted to a vod where Lav, in the process of attempting to earn moderation status on jstlk's server, breaks down in tears.[59]
In the video, Lav claims to want moderation status on the server in order to prevent the bullying she has already received, and suggests that jstlk can remove her moderation privileges at any time should he wish. She goes on to accuse jstlk of withholding moderation status from her, despite her contributions to his stream's traffic, as a way to signal to his viewers that she is "bad and unworthy" of the role. Destiny remarks that Lav is a crybully upon hearing this, and laughs when Lav suggests that having moderation powers would "make the days go easier".
After jstlk holds firm in his refusal to give Lav moderation privileges, Lav breaks down in tears and Destiny jokes he has to turn off his camera in order to pleasure himself. The video progresses, and Lav accuses jstlk of being kind to her in private messages, but cold to her on stream. Destiny pauses the vod and remarks that this is the exact same criticism Lav had attempted to levy towards himself in the past, and warns jstlk to be careful. The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop". Destiny then points out Lav's "manipulation tactic":
"Oh my god, how can she be this fucking stupid! If you want to be a master-manipulator women...here's what you need to do... you should be forced to live for like one year in an average women's body... or a guy's body... because men and plain women have to work hard on their manipulative tactics. But Lav's manipulation is okay... but then she just compensates with looking pretty and shipping nudes to everybody. Absent those last two things, if a guy is not desperate for her, or if she doesn't have a guy under her thumb because she's shipping them nudes, she is like nothing, and then she has an absolute meltdown... Stop being an asshole to everybody, stop being a massive cunt to everybody in chat, stop shipping your nudes to people in channels over and over again and shitting on them for their appearance... you can't be so aggressive and cry over it." - Destiny 28:00"
Destiny then states that Lav is attempting to externalize reasons for jstlk not giving her mod by implying jstlk has no autonomy, and is being pressured by outside forces(jstlk eventually states he was receiving no dms during this conversation).
As the video progresses, Lav complains to jstlk about discord users posting pictures of her in an unflattering position with her dog. Destiny points out that these images were being posted after Lav accused Zoe(aka blondie) of highlighting her own dog in explicit images of herself as a form of beastilaity. Destiny eventually moves back to the timestamp in the vod where the two debate, and finds it amusing that Lav's request for moderation powers occurred shortly after this debate.
Reaction Highlights | |
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Lav has a bone to pick with jstlk
Lauren De Laguna asks Lav why she wants mod powers, to which Lav responds she is being harassed consistently, and that these individuals would do it less if they knew she had mod powers. Destiny pauses the video and remarks that Lav is a crybully. She then states that members of the discord "spam post" explicit photos of her(photos which she had previously shared on the discord). Lauren replies that she is surprised such behavior bothers her at all, and questions why Lav would even want to hang out here if she feels harassed. Lav responds that she enjoys her time on the server, and that moderation powers would "make the days go easier". Destiny pauses the video again and laughs. Lav then points to an instance in which she messaged jstlk a chatter whom she considered to be harassing her. Jstlk responds that he likes said chatter, and that his actions(a photo of a grill) did not seem to constitute a significant enough amount of harassment to warrant a ban.
The video continues, and Lav states she has "very little self control because I get so angry", and requests that jstlk "tell people to stop" harassing her. Destiny pauses the video once more and discusses Lav's manipulation tactic. He states that Lav's manipulation abilities are okay, but are heavily compensated by her appearance and proclivity to send explicit images of herself to many individuals. He then points out that if these tactics fail, and if a "guy is not desperate for her", she has nothing and will proceed to have an "absolute meltdown". Lav requests for mod once more, and jstlk once again tells her no and advises her to stop "coming at different angles" for this. Jstlk goes on to accuse Lav of violating a boundary he established by requesting this conversation be had off-stream. Lav replies that it is "very hard to parse a relationship" with jstlk, to which jstlk and Wolfgand reiterate they should have this conversation off-stream. 35:44 Destiny explains Lav's line of thought when attempting to cope with jstlk's refusal to mod her. He accuses Lav of implying that jstlk has no agency, and is attempting to externalize reasons for him not giving her mod.
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Reaction timestamps | |
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Lav blacklisted
On February 22, 2024, Destiny blacklisted Lav from his streams following her dissemination of allegedly false details pertaining to their brief sexual encounter and his genitalia on a twitch stream. [60] Her DGG accounts were also banned. [61]
Notable Clips, videos, logs, tweets, and Reddit Threads
Lav debates on the Playing With Fire channel
On November 9, 2022, Lav joined Playing with Fire(AKA Alex) to debate a wide range of contemporary social and personal issues. [62]
Destiny requests a timeline of Lav's lies
On May 4, 2023 Destiny requested a list of defamatory claims Lav had levied against his person. The top comment from reddit user 4amaroni, went into great detail:[63]
- "Compartmentalized sexual relationship in which it was like payment for stream time" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRlMXoBFTmI&t=423s
- "I think we had a completely consensual, very uh, completely consensual. I had no qualms with it, don't have a problem with it" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90thbmSNMo&t=2394s
- Twitter post with several false claims of abuse: https://imgur.com/cTGY4wb
- "I've never made any claims, like, that he raped me. I've always said that our relationship was completely consensual and very pleasant." - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=806
- "If Max writes an article, and it is frivolous and hyperbolic and not based in reality and completely allegory and tries to paint a picture of abuse without any substantial evidence, I will make a public statement denouncing it" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=1697
- "I never said we had an active sexual relationship in November, ever. I never made that claim" - https://youtu.be/Hc7iy7bVSUk?t=8072
- Screenshot of posts/chats with Lav lying about Genevieve, Pxie, Kelly Jean - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=462
- "I'm not going to talk to someone who is actively abusing, who actively abuses everyone he comes into contact with. I don't think he abuses everyone he comes into contact with, but who is actively abusing me." - https://youtu.be/z90L_d3nzc0?t=3946
- "If I'm giving you sexual favors. If I'm sending you pictures of my feet, maybe don't call me a fucking abuser on stream because I don't like when you call me a dumb bitch" - https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx11km2xbZUM2rCQoXoSkdgD-bE2uM8m0y
MrGirl Rumble stream on Feb 27th
- 1:23:11 "I traded this relationship for airtime"
- 1:26:57 "Some part of me wishes that I was still sending feet pictures"
- 2:24:00 "I'm just glad that you caught the things that he did. Like the 'Welcome to the Orbiter's Club thing' I can't believe that. Teaser!"
- 2:24:36 "I didn't know that Harvey Weinstein had rape alle- interrupted by MrGirl"
- 2:47:21 "I'm scared that you've convinced me that Steven is an abuser"
- 3:21:27 "Trades her body for airtime. She knew what she was getting into"
- 3:22:09 "I got it. I got the airtime"
- Lav retracts Weinstein statement against Destiny: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhVoYmcWYAAFAyt?format=jpg&name=900x900
- Compilation of lies in a subreddit post on Redacted's subreddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/mrgirlreturns/comments/11jk3xl/the_thirteen_lies_of_lav_from_last_nights_stream/?ref=share&ref_source=link
- Album of Lav's original Patreon post: https://imgur.com/a/8Ar0uIp
- Archive of Lav's Patreon post: https://archive.ph/cn4yW
Of note:
"I did not open my relationship for Steven, I did not close it because of Steven. What I didn’t anticipate was becoming part of stevens orbit in the way I had. I did not knowingly consent to a scenario Of being evaluated for my performance, being told I brought views and clicks and content, and existing in the social contract I did, after having a sexual dynamic with him, and I didn’t realize how many of the women in the orbit had the same social contract I did."
In case there's some want by Destiny's lawyer to see Lav has a trend of behavior throwing out false accusations, later contradicting or retracting them, and then later re-asserting them:
- Lav accuses Hasan of having sex with two of her friends when they were underage: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041825963694112778/image.png
- Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with a 17 year old when he was 24: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/142849025069154304/1041826487067742318/image.png
- Lav reiterates Hasan had sex with her friend when she was underage: https://i.imgur.com/L3Ym2Rv.png
- Lav reiterates her friend was underage: https://i.imgur.com/v5g8y6D.png
- Lav says she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/2SQHVeI.png
- Lav reiterates she's signed an NDA to not come forward regarding Hasan: https://i.imgur.com/YmzYFeg.png
- Lav denies having signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv05vLWQAU8e26?format=png&name=small
- Lav reiterates she's never signed an NDA: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fhv1GtpWIAAPWSt?format=png&name=small
- Lav says she only clarified the age of her friend because Hasan threatened legal action. Still insists her friend was underage: https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxBRjxJV9nARusNEzri8vCXWKW_gevcDjY https://streamable.com/w7gg6o
- Lav insists she did not publicly accuse of Hasan of anything substantial. Retracts claim her friend was underage. Later says Hasan should go to jail for having paid for services from prostitutes in the past: https://obscenegaming.net/clips/TolerantBraveHerringTheThing-Fk1D3I0m7Uubiq76
- Lav retracts claims about her friend being underage. Admits she made a false allegation in ChudLogic's discord: https://streamable.com/k2h915
External Links
References
- ↑ https://twitter.com/bordeauxxheaux/status/1791519785898979488
- ↑ Imgur backup https://imgur.com/a/Q38FKd9
- ↑ https://www.nme.com/features/nme-radar-lav-heartbreaking-poet-with-songs-envied-by-billie-eilish-2666899
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_debates_sex_work_and_ethics_on_a_ChudLogic_panel
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_discusses_sex_work_and_feminism_with_Destiny,_debates_pornography_with_Kai_Clips
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ypc5m9/since_lav_is_always_asking_help_composite_a_list/
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Lav_discusses_misogyny_and_community_moderation_on_a_panel_featuring_Aba_and_Sneako
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Orbiter_Civil_War_AKA_Lav_and_12_other_orbiters_yell_at_each_other_for_several_hours
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_confronts_Lav_after_reacting_to_her_talking_about_him_on_other_streams_AKA_Destiny_takes_off_the_%22kids_gloves%22_and_yells_at_Lav
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_Reacts_To_MrGirl_And_Lav_Crying_Together
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/wiwxe7/why_does_anybody_take_lav_seriously/
- ↑ https://wiki.destiny.gg/view/Lav#Destiny_addresses_Lav_and_MrGirl's_allegations._Issues_a_content_ban_on_both
- ↑ Tom Foolery Show. (2023, October 3). President Sunday Roasts Actual Jake. YouTube. https://youtu.be/wAsAV0o_Acg?t=11286
- ↑ Just CHILLIN’, Kick or Keep tonight at 6 EST. (November 27th, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 28, 2023, from https://youtu.be/UywMih48AYg?t=13513
- ↑ https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T03%3A54%3A54.480Z&username=destiny
- ↑ Destiny Moderates MrGirl vs Lav Debate (Gaslighting, Boundaries, Abuse). (August 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcARJDJ4y6k
- ↑ OnlyFans Stars CLASH, Panel GANGS UP on Ex-Model! (August 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soU9GwCv5Cc
- ↑ 2022-08-06|P1 Reacting to ChudLogic panel about sex work and OnlyFans; viewer call-ins. (September 4, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_l0fADhOZ0&t=2541s
- ↑ “Destiny Has A Big Problem With Me” Ex-Sex Worker CONFRONTS Destiny In Pre-Panel Debate. (August 7, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqSHS5ncGsQ
- ↑ Destiny, Dan & MrGirl Bully S*x Workers for 4 Hours. (August 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 5, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhljHCOOC08
- ↑ PURE CHAOS | Destiny, Lav, Brittany, MrGirl & Dan| Drama Panel. (August 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 5, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zH6yO_16lM
- ↑ Dan Sheds Light on LEAKED RECORDING of Lavlune TRASHING Destiny! (Private S*X Info Leaked?). (August 13, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLK6Z4iRqL4
- ↑ THE E-GIRL EXORCISM - SHOCKING LAVLUNE REVELATIONS. (August 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 10, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egyuwjqEXNw
- ↑ Lavlune BACKSTABS Destiny, LIES About STALKER & Gets ATTACKED By Obsessed 4Channer. (August 15, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4bsurH_FC4
- ↑ 2022-08-14|P1 Destiny was rude to F&F producer; talk w/ Aba about Fresh & Fit, Sneako. (August 19, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWCDIoM-Ppc
- ↑ 2022-09-11|P2 Talk w/ Lav about sex work, Lav’s beliefs; KaiClips and Lav debate pornography. (September 12, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3iIvcBoZ3g
- ↑ Destiny Actually Convinces Her To Concede A Trans Debate. (October 5, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 11, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH8iFzeEMa8
- ↑ Destiny Gets Triggered Into A Debate w/ Lav And Zherka ft. Chaeiry. (October 15, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 16, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myPGy1WNvx8
- ↑ Destiny Finally SNAPS, Almost Bans Entire Panel Addressing MrGirl False Allegations. (October 18, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 16, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-irtug0-WYE
- ↑ Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS. (October 25, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y6DDtjM3cY
- ↑ Destiny Orbiter Civil War | PRELUDE. (October 26, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLn43h5JzNA
- ↑ Destiny. (2022). Aba CONFRONTS Destiny, Triggers MELTDOWN 13 Person Debate | CIVIL WAR. In YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX7Y8O4FbzI
- ↑ I Asked My Therapist About Destiny. (October 29, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved October 17, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1qqxb_v1GE
- ↑ Sneako And Aba CLASH On Debate Panel Over DJ Akademiks Fresh N Fit Drama. (October 30, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 1, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB2fkZMTvxE
- ↑ Destiny and Dan RECAP MrGirl Bridge Burning and Lav’s Future. (November 1, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 3, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rkDh3_N3E
- ↑ “DO NOT Make It Personal” - Aba Gets Called Out And Dragged Into Impromptu Debate. (November 6, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rAynLV9qKI
- ↑ Destiny SchizVember Call-ins (R*pe Review, Cheating, Lex Fridman and Lav). (November 5, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 8, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzgF4hWILRs
- ↑ Melina Vents about Lav Lune Drama and Parasocial Destiny Orbiters. (October 28, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 13, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMgyXtSydo
- ↑ LavLune Fires Back at Destiny’s Wife Melina. (November 6, 2022). Www.youtube.com. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfP2u7qydBI
- ↑ JiDion And Low Tier God Squash Beef In The Middle of A Debate Panel. (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 14, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slcuGeh99W4
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ynaf49/i_am_lav_and_i_am_the_voice_of_the_black_community/
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/ynxciz/blav_in_the_sunken_place/
- ↑ Debate Panel Completely Derails Into HEATED Personal Insults ft. Aba. (November 7, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved November 22, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHY0V2QQeKY
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/yp84vl/lav_needs_to_not_be_involved_in_discussions_about/
- ↑ Lavlune CONFRONTED and EXPOSED for Absurd Clout Sharking and Flip-Flopping. (November 8, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M46CiExHMaE
- ↑ Destiny Responds to ChudLogic & Lav Lune Claims. (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 4, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF3Ln1qasFc
- ↑ Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together. (November 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 31, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jliRjf10v3g
- ↑ Destiny Addresses Lav’s Allegations And Exposes MrGirl. (November 11, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved December 6, 2023, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLNmDQOdYE
- ↑ https://twitter.com/shebie_jeebies/status/1583943682117754880
- ↑ Destiny Confronts Lav Lune, Insane Lies Uncovered. (March 5, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 8, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWhF0jLTsro
- ↑ Destiny Crashes Panel To Confront Lav And Catnip. (November 3, 2023). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 16, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzdxVmLf01o
- ↑ Media:LavBlondieDrama.png
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1asa5l9/drama_between_destiny_lav_random_hookup/kqow5fv/
- ↑ https://kick.com/video/d4c1a345-a088-4a68-84b1-ea7c3f26bb8d
- ↑ Lav CONFRONTS Destiny (lonerbox unphased, playing chess). (Feb 18, 2024). Www.youtube.com. Retrieved February 18, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CDUdcghqE
- ↑ Logs of Destiny and Lav's discord argument in jstlk's server on 1/28/2024
- ↑ https://imgur.com/a/e8sYJm6
- ↑ https://imgur.com/a/fvn2Nh3
- ↑ Wake up babe, it’s research time. (February 20th, 2024). www.youtube.com. Retrieved February 22, 2024, from https://youtu.be/ZW2MX2CibYI?t=1164
- ↑ https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T03%3A54%3A54.480Z&username=destiny
- ↑ https://rustlesearch.dev/surrounds?channel=Destinygg&date=2024-02-22T04%3A03%3A12.740Z&username=destiny
- ↑ LavLune Debate - “You Have A Mental Disease.” (November 9, 2022). www.youtube.com. Retrieved January 16, 2024, from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSw_1n-FMyQ
- ↑ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/137swsm/lav_timeline/